Larry Coon: Hawks can get Smoove, D12 and CP3 using bird rights?

[Admin]

I'm not opposed to replacing Lou but definitely not with Nate!! I'd much rather keep Lou than lose him though and if Dwight and CP3 are going to come to Atlanta that means they want to team up here and will take what we can give them. They aren't going to say ok we aren't teaming up because of not being able to get an extra 2 million or so per season that we'd get from moving Lou for cap space. Plus I'm not sure there are that many teams who'd give up cap space this year to get Lou without getting anything else in addition and I'm not giving up draft assets to move Lou. In fact I'm not giving up our 1sts this years either as we need bodies and guys with potential instead of all vet min retreads filling the roster.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Copeland isn't that impressive to me. He's slow and unathletic looking and he's worth a vet min contract at most.

So how is that different from Kyle Korver? Most people around here were talking about paying him a MLE level contact.

Copeland is supposedly slow and unathletic, but averaged over 20 ppg on a per 36 minute basis, and had a 58.3 TS% last season?

I won't go on about Copeland though. When the Knicks finally come to their senses, they'll find ways to keep that dude on the floor and get him the ball. Maybe even play him with Melo, so that Melo can have a bail out guy to pass the ball to.

This may look like an easy play, but I bet that Anthony Tolliver, Steve Novak, and especially Kyle Korver can't do this:

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Nate compared to Lou in 2012-13.

http://www.82games.com/1213/12CHI1.HTM

# Unit Min Off Def +/- W L Win% 1 Robinson-Belinelli-Deng-Boozer-Noah 236 .97 1.08 -35 12 15 44 2 Robinson-Hamilton-Deng-Boozer-Noah 218 .93 1.07 -47 7 10 41 3 Robinson-Belinelli-Butler-Gibson-Noah 128 1.19 1.02 37 13 14 48 4 Robinson-Belinelli-Deng-Gibson-Noah 106 .97 .92 14 12 12 50 5 Robinson-Belinelli-Butler-Deng-Gibson 86 1.06 1.05 5 4 4 50

When Nate gets a lot of minutes the Bulls lose.

http://www.82games.com/1213/12ATL4.HTM

# Unit Min Off Def +/- W L Win% 1 Teague-Williams-Korver-Smith-Horford 231 1.09 1.02 40 11 9 55 2 Teague-Williams-Korver-Horford-Pachulia 56 1.27 1.01 29 4 4 50 3 Teague-Williams-Stevenson-Smith-Horford 35 .98 1.28 -17 3 5 37 4 Harris-Williams-Morrow-Horford-Pachulia 33 .95 1.33 -22 1 4 20 5 Teague-Williams-Smith-Horford-Pachulia 25 .77 1.08 -18 2 9 18

When Lou got minutes he was effective.

Saying Nate team record v. Lou's team record is disrespectful to the comparison.

Lou impact cannot be replaced by none of the aforementioned players. Lou's effectiveness would be much higher if he was playing next to Joe Johnson or Jrue Holliday instead of Jeff Teague and Devin Harris. You aren't being factually wrong as you are looking at all variables. That's why I dislike when some people try to use adv stats when they do not understand them first.

It's not disrespectful . . . it's reality.

The overall W - L record for a player is calculated for what you did for the entire game. The fact is that Lou can play well with some people. But if you're looking at his overall effectiveness for an entire game, it tells a different story.

Flip Murray in the 2nd half of the 2009 season was basically doing the exact same thing that Lou was giving us. So why hype up Lou like he's some irreplaceable type of player? Tyronn Lue did it. Flip did it. Jamal did it. And Lou simply did what they did. Nate can do what Jamal and Lou does. And the same applies to Nate, that his effectiveness would be much higher, had he played with better people.

And Nate's situation is like Lou's in Philly, in that Nate was really the only guy who can create his own shot at times. That "3rd string PG" had to be the #1 option scorer many times last season. And Nate definitely played with far less offensive talent around him in Chicago, than Lou played around in Atlanta. That's not even a debate.

But to act like the Hawks couldn't survive without Lou . . come on now. OJ Mayo and Jarrett Jack can come right in and do what Lou did.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I'm not opposed to replacing Lou but definitely not with Nate!! I'd much rather keep Lou than lose him though and if Dwight and CP3 are going to come to Atlanta that means they want to team up here and will take what we can give them. They aren't going to say ok we aren't teaming up because of not being able to get an extra 2 million or so per season that we'd get from moving Lou for cap space. Plus I'm not sure there are that many teams who'd give up cap space this year to get Lou without getting anything else in addition and I'm not giving up draft assets to move Lou. In fact I'm not giving up our 1sts this years either as we need bodies and guys with potential instead of all vet min retreads filling the roster.

They aren't going to say ok we aren't teaming up because of not being able to get an extra 2 million or so per season that we'd get from moving Lou for cap space.

Dol . . . that's EXACTLY what they're going to say.

They'd already be giving up around 30 million in that 5th year salary by coming to Atlanta. So if they asked for as close to the Max as possible, you're going to ask them to give up another 8 - 10 million on a 4 year deal, just because we want to keep around Lou Williams?

Nah . . . you don't even play around like that. Neither Lou, nor the mid 1st round picks, are worth not giving Paul and Howard exactly what they want. You get those stars in here, then build from there.

Lou Williams isn't winning a title in ATL without Howard or Paul. But I bet Howard and Paul can win one without Lou Williams.

LOL . . . so we're going to pass on giving Howard and Paul all the money we can give them, because we want to keep around Lou Williams, and have the privilege to sign Mason Plumlee and Jamal Franklin?

That's not even clear thinking man. Every other team vying for the services of Dwight will literally sell their soul to get him. So we better be willing to do the same thing, if not more, to get both Dwight and Chris.

Edited June 5, 2013 by northcyde

[Guest]

You guys are really arguing about Lou Williams?He's effective at what he is called upon to do but he can also be replaced. End!

[Guest]

You guys are really arguing about Lou Williams?He's effective at what he is called upon to do but he can also be replaced. End!

[NBASupes]

It's not disrespectful . . . it's reality.

The overall W - L record for a player is calculated for what you did for the entire game. The fact is that Lou can play well with some people. But if you're looking at his overall effectiveness for an entire game, it tells a different story.

Flip Murray in the 2nd half of the 2009 season was basically doing the exact same thing that Lou was giving us. So why hype up Lou like he's some irreplaceable type of player? Tyronn Lue did it. Flip did it. Jamal did it. And Lou simply did what they did. Nate can do what Jamal and Lou does. And the same applies to Nate, that his effectiveness would be much higher, had he played with better people.

And Nate's situation is like Lou's in Philly, in that Nate was really the only guy who can create his own shot at times. That "3rd string PG" had to be the #1 option scorer many times last season. And Nate definitely played with far less offensive talent around him in Chicago, than Lou played around in Atlanta. That's not even a debate.

But to act like the Hawks couldn't survive without Lou . . come on now. OJ Mayo and Jarrett Jack can come right in and do what Lou did.

It's disrespectful to use the team stats when we are talking in contrast. If we are using team stats, when Dwight Howard plays the Lakers are XnX but when Gary Neal plays, the Spurs are XnX which means Gary Neal is better. Look at the numbers when Nate gets his mins. He is not even useful. Most of the time he has negative impact.

Look at Lou's, most of his have positive impact. That's key.

Flip played in the right system, role, next to the right personnel and what not in Atlanta. When he went elsewhere he went right back to the no impact zone and 10th-12th man on the bench. Saying Flip replaced quality production is a loose statement that's flawed.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Leadership

[Watchman]

Just curious. Would bringing Josh back (if possible) help entice Howard & Paul?

entice them to sign with another team? quite possibly.

[NBASupes]

entice them to sign with another team? quite possibly.

I know some of our fans are big Josh Smith fans but unless you are building an uptempo team. Josh wouldn't fit in most of our plans going forward.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

It's disrespectful to use the team stats when we are talking in contrast. If we are using team stats, when Dwight Howard plays the Lakers are XnX but when Gary Neal plays, the Spurs are XnX which means Gary Neal is better. Look at the numbers when Nate gets his mins. He is not even useful. Most of the time he has negative impact.

Look at Lou's, most of his have positive impact. That's key.

Flip played in the right system, role, next to the right personnel and what not in Atlanta. When he went elsewhere he went right back to the no impact zone and 10th-12th man on the bench. Saying Flip replaced quality production is a loose statement that's flawed.

So if Lou was

( +8 ) playing with Horford - Smith - Korver - Teague for 16 minutes

( -6 ) playng with Horford - Ivan - Korver - Harris for 4 minutes

( -4 ) playing with Zaza - Smith - Tolliver - Teauge for 5 minutes

And was a ( -2 ) for the game in 25 minutes . . . did Lou really help us?

In Lou's W - L profile, he'd be credited with a loss, despite the 1st group playing well. The question is . . was the game won or lost, when Lou played with the other guys for those 9 minutes? Or did they end up posting a +8, when they were already down in the game, and were simply trying to fight back?

That's why a player's overall W - L profile can matter.

You can have the last word on this if you want, from a "Lou Williams is important" standpoint.

[Brotha2ThaNite]

You can't go into the tax or cap to sign other teams free agents.

I swear you can spoon people all day and Free agent still goes right over their head.

I totally agree because I can never get this $H!T right. lol

That's why I'm always on here asking crazy questions at the end of the year. lol

[Admin]

So how is that different from Kyle Korver? Most people around here were talking about paying him a MLE level contact. Copeland is supposedly slow and unathletic, but averaged over 20 ppg on a per 36 minute basis, and had a 58.3 TS% last season? I won't go on about Copeland though. When the Knicks finally come to their senses, they'll find ways to keep that dude on the floor and get him the ball. Maybe even play him with Melo, so that Melo can have a bail out guy to pass the ball to. This may look like an easy play, but I bet that Anthony Tolliver, Steve Novak, and especially Kyle Korver can't do this.

Why are you using Korver or those other non athletes as some sort of golden standard? Look at the video he is slow and plodding and couldn't even get minutes on the geriatric Knicks. I know you're his greatest fan but just like Jordan Crawford you've once again hitched your bandwagon to the wrong horse. Let someone else overpay this bum as if rather the Hawks draft guys with potential or sign proven players.

[Admin]

They aren't going to say ok we aren't teaming up because of not being able to get an extra 2 million or so per season that we'd get from moving Lou for cap space.

Dol . . . that's EXACTLY what they're going to say.

They'd already be giving up around 30 million in that 5th year salary by coming to Atlanta. So if they asked for as close to the Max as possible, you're going to ask them to give up another 8 - 10 million on a 4 year deal, just because we want to keep around Lou Williams?

Nah . . . you don't even play around like that. Neither Lou, nor the mid 1st round picks, are worth not giving Paul and Howard exactly what they want. You get those stars in here, then build from there.

Lou Williams isn't winning a title in ATL without Howard or Paul. But I bet Howard and Paul can win one without Lou Williams.

LOL . . . so we're going to pass on giving Howard and Paul all the money we can give them, because we want to keep around Lou Williams, and have the privilege to sign Mason Plumlee and Jamal Franklin?

That's not even clear thinking man. Every other team vying for the services of Dwight will literally sell their soul to get him. So we better be willing to do the same thing, if not more, to get both Dwight and Chris.

My bad I didn't realize they'd be retiring after this 4 year contract and wouldn't get another big contract after this one. They better stay in LA and get that 5th year then!

If they want to play in Atlanta for any amount it's because of teaming up, not because of money. That means they want to have a great team and that means giving up a little money to allow Ferry to build the team. It's pretty easy to see that.

[NBASupes]

My bad I didn't realize they'd be retiring after this 4 year contract and wouldn't get another big contract after this one. They better stay in LA and get that 5th year then!If they want to play in Atlanta for any amount it's because of teaming up, not because of money. That means they want to have a great team and that means giving up a little money to allow Ferry to build the team. It's pretty easy to see that.

They could opt out after their 3rd year and get a bigger deal and longer term since they would still be in their prime. So at the end, it's not a huge deal if you know how to market your situation.

[Admin]

They could opt out after their 3rd year and get a bigger deal and longer term since they would still be in their prime. So at the end, it's not a huge deal if you know how to market your situation.

Yep we could give them that player option for the 4th year. In the end they'd be able to make up most, if not all, of the money given up in a deal with the Hawks right now that builds a full team.But North is thrilled to have 2 superstars, a star, and a bunch of vet mins and never has beens with no potential since we wouldn't have draft choices to at least get something of potential to build the bench.

[NBASupes]

The biggest thing is Miami traded a lot of their draft picks for Bron and Bosh rights. Atlanta will have their picks and can swap 2014 & 2015 with Brooklyn who made an awful trade with Atlanta.

[capstone21]

So how is that different from Kyle Korver? Most people around here were talking about paying him a MLE level contact.

Copeland is supposedly slow and unathletic, but averaged over 20 ppg on a per 36 minute basis, and had a 58.3 TS% last season?

I won't go on about Copeland though. When the Knicks finally come to their senses, they'll find ways to keep that dude on the floor and get him the ball. Maybe even play him with Melo, so that Melo can have a bail out guy to pass the ball to.

This may look like an easy play, but I bet that Anthony Tolliver, Steve Novak, and especially Kyle Korver can't do this:

We don't need Korver to do that. We just need him to hit his threes, spread the floor and work hard (which he does).

[DJlaysitup]

We don't need Korver to do that. We just need him to hit his threes, spread the floor and work hard (which he does).

I'd love to have Korver back - he is a better "all around" player than he is given credit for IMO. That said, if we are looking at a core of AL, CP3, and Dwight - Korver is a gone goose. He will be semi-overpaid by another team and we won't be in the mix. That's OK.

[NBASupes]

I'd love to have Korver back - he is a better "all around" player than he is given credit for IMO. That said, if we are looking at a core of AL, CP3, and Dwight - Korver is a gone goose. He will be semi-overpaid by another team and we won't be in the mix. That's OK.

I would love KK but Jenkins has more potential, is cheaper and plays the same position. We need a legit SF who can shoot corner threes and defend at SF. Korver is not that. He can shoot but his defense is too weak.

[Admin]

I would love KK but Jenkins has more potential, is cheaper and plays the same position. We need a legit SF who can shoot corner threes and defend at SF. Korver is not that. He can shoot but his defense is too weak.

I agree and that's why I'm not sure why North was going on about comparing Scrubland to Korver as if that's something we should be striving for.