Hawks looking to move Al Horford?

[AHF]

You are a lawyer correct? Why are you giving me this flawed basis on this comparison?

[*]You did not answer the question. The question was, what could Karl Malone do, that Al Horford couldn’t do? You sidestepped it like you were Walter Payton.

[*]Horford was incorrectly positioned at C instead of PF and unlike Malone, he had to play the position he was not suited for. He didn’t have a 7’4 Mark Eaton or a 6’11 Thurl Bailey to battle for boards. He had 6’8 tweener Josh Smith.

[*]John Stockton was drafted one year before Malone and he started the 2^nd half of the season. He was never in a true reserve role with Malone. Stockton is sorely responsible for most of his good passes for PnP, his angles on PnR, and his amazing entry passes which most of Atlanta’s roster seem to struggle doing aside from Smoove and Bibby.

[*]Comparing stats is flawed because of the pace. PER does a decent job of changing stats based on the PER like WS but the PER rewards rebounding and scoring at a great clip. Therefore it doesn’t really explain what I am talking about in reference to Horford compared to Malone.

[*]Rebounding, you mentioned rebounding. This is the one area where pace even dropped seems where Malone has an edge except you did not take into account one key stat. Offensive rebounds. While Malone had guys with great size who were always battling for boards with him, Hoford had Josh Smith who routinely found his way to the perimeter with no defensive attention his direction whatsoever and caused Al to battle 1on2 for boards. Over his career. He still did an amazing job as he 2.6 to Malone’s 2.4. If that is not amazing, I do not know what is. DRB, Malone is averaging 7.7 to Horf 7.0. Big difference considering the pace, I think not.

[*]Assists and Steals are inflated by pace.

[*]Different role, different personnel, and different position. That’s why I cannot the playoff analysis seriously. Denny Green has a 30 PER in the NBA Finals v. Miami. Do you really think he is a 3o PER player. He has been cut by San Antonio twice.

[*]WS can be attributing the personnel. Sorry but Smith/Horford with Teague doesn’t equal Malone/Eaton with Stockton. That’s the problem with your theory is it is not a stat theory. I am talking about simply skill-set and ability. PER, WS, are all volume stats. Even TS can be flawed depending on the personnel. I went through this when looking at Dorell Wright’s numbers recently.

[*]You say 80% of his numbers. When I told you he has never had the personnel. We have rarely featured Horford till this year and we still lacked the personnel. So looking at PPG, TS, efficiency is flawed because one can play his natural position which is PF, plays with a true centers with size, and has an elite playmaker PG. The other has to play center next to an undersized PF and play with average combo guards who have no business starting on a team constructed like ours. The only thing we can truly compare is rebounding, assists, steals, skill-set, and athletic ability.

[*]We aren’t getting 27PPG from Al or any movement PF outside of prime Amare in this generation. We just aren’t.

[*]He is why they are comparable. Similar rebounders. Always in the top 10, usually around 6-10. Both are excellent at running the court. Both are elite at movement. Both have elite mid range jumpers. Both have excellent speed for position. Both are fundamentally sound defenders. Both are not defensive anchors. Both have trouble creating their own offense. Both tend to be versatile.

[*]Where they differ is, Malone is a more fluid, stronger, and confident player than Horford. Horford is a more intelligent, willing to do the little things, and he is more of a winner mentality wise than Malone. I think Coach Donovan did a hell of a job with Horford. Both are tough minded and both give there all and rarely miss many games and that’s more amazing for Horf since he has to bang with centers every game.

[*]Let’s play the numbers game just for fun. Karl’s average usage is at 29.4 while Al’s is at 18.4. Al’s eFG for his career is at .539 while Karl’s at .518. Al is a more effective scorer and takes less bad shots than Karl. While Karl’s TOV% would go up with usage, Al’s trend is more usage, better numbers which says Al makes smarter decisions on the ball than Karl’s. While Karl has a steals% adv, Al has the Blocks% adv. That could be more so to Mark Eaton being an anchor or Ostertag size than Malone’s ability. Horf had Smith but Smith is not an anchor.

[*]When it comes to stats, outside of PPG and TS which can be affected by role, system, and personnel, Al and Malone are near equals in most career categories.

[*]Sorry but where is the 80% of less production you are talking about. Once you take pace, personnel, system, and position into account, they mark out as the same types with minor differences.

What can Malone do that Horford will never do?

Average 25 ppg.

All this explanation reminds me of people justifying why Marvin Williams was really talented and it was just the system holding him back.

Horford is not aggressive, versatile or confident enough as a scorer to do what Malone did and if he ever matches what Malone did in a same age season in terms of scoring at any point in his career I will be shocked and thrilled. The fact that you don't believe he can do even 70% of what Malone did underscores that you would be equally shocked.

While we are unlikely to see any PFs averaging 29 ppg in the near future, I think that has more to do with the fact that we are comparing on the greatest PFs in NBA history as a benchmark. We will still see PFs score in the 20's with reasonable regularity.

Beyond that, I guarantee that we will see dozens of PFs score as many points per season as Al Horford.

For someone to score like Karl Malone it means they would be one of the top 3 scorers in NBA history and somewhere around a top 5 guy in the league. For someone to score more prolifically than Al Horford, it means they can score like Kemba Walker, Brandon Jennings and Josh Smith (3 of the 30 players who scored more than Al in Al's career high season).

It is a very different bar to clear.

Edited June 13, 2013 by AHF

[Guest]

I'm tellin you nbasoup/joker is alive n kickin.

[Diesel]

I'm tellin you nbasoup/joker is alive n kickin.

I belive it's ex or tontos or whatever redention you want.

[NBASupes]

What can Malone do that Horford will never do?

Average 25 ppg.

All this explanation reminds me of people justifying why Marvin Williams was really talented and it was just the system holding him back.

Horford is not aggressive, versatile or confident enough as a scorer to do what Malone did and if he ever matches what Malone did in a same age season in terms of scoring at any point in his career I will be shocked and thrilled. The fact that you don't believe he can do even 70% of what Malone did underscores that you would be equally shocked.

While we are unlikely to see any PFs averaging 29 ppg in the near future, I think that has more to do with the fact that we are comparing on the greatest PFs in NBA history as a benchmark. We will still see PFs score in the 20's with reasonable regularity.

Beyond that, I guarantee that we will see dozens of PFs score as many points per season as Al Horford.

For someone to score like Karl Malone it means they would be one of the top 3 scorers in NBA history and somewhere around a top 5 guy in the league. For someone to score more prolifically than Al Horford, it means they can score like Kemba Walker, Brandon Jennings and Josh Smith (3 of the 30 players who scored more than Al in Al's career high season).

It is a very different bar to clear.

They do about the same thing to answer your question. They have minor differences like Malone is more fluid, stronger, and confident as a player.

Horford is smarter, has a winner's mentality, and does the little things Karl didn't always focus on doing because his main task was to be a scorer from the jump.

Can't speak for Marvin on this topic and won't since this is about Horford.

Not quite sure how that statement on PPG relates to this comparison when we already talked about it in great detail.

Horford is not aggressive, versatile or confident enough as a scorer to do what Malone did and if he ever matches what Malone did in a same age season in terms of scoring at any point in his career I will be shocked and thrilled. The fact that you don't believe he can do even 70% of what Malone did underscores that you would be equally shocked.

I disagree with aggressiveness. I seen him plenty aggressive and at times too aggressive. Are you sure versatile is the word you want to use? Al is the one having play a lot of minutes defending and guarding C's not Malone. Scoring is not his main responsibility but when it is, Horford averaged 20/10 after ASB guarding and defending centers with an average combo guard at PG who is a poor passer. So, I kind of look at things indifferently in regards to his scoring ability.

While we are unlikely to see any PFs averaging 29 ppg in the near future, I think that has more to do with the fact that we are comparing on the greatest PFs in NBA history as a benchmark. We will still see PFs score in the 20's with reasonable regularity.

Once again, what does this have to do with his scoring ability? Stackhouse has scored more points in a season than Durant has in his whole career so is Stackhouse a better scorer than Durant? This is about role, system, position, and fit in terms of Malone to Horford.

Beyond that, I guarantee that we will see dozens of PFs score as many points per season as Al Horford.

For someone to score like Karl Malone it means they would be one of the top 3 scorers in NBA history and somewhere around a top 5 guy in the league. For someone to score more prolifically than Al Horford, it means they can score like Kemba Walker, Brandon Jennings and Josh Smith (3 of the 30 players who scored more than Al in Al's career high season).

Your basis is that if he stays in a position where he has a crap PG and is playing center then your theory will reign true. My basis is if you put him in the optimum situation that my theory will reign true. But with that said, what can Malone do that Horford can't do?

Aggressiveness- The same.

Confidence- Malone

Versatility- Horford

Making winning plays- Horford

Scoring as it is- Malone

Higher BBIQ- Horford

Do you disagree or agree with that take?

[Admin]

I belive it's ex or tontos or whatever redention you want.

Nah it's not Ex as he would have already blown up in anger several times by now.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Honestly, a better comparison to Horford offensively, is David Lee. Comparing him to Karl Malone in any way, shape, or form, is almost blasphemy.

[NBASupes]

Honestly, a better comparison to Horford offensively, is David Lee. Comparing him to Karl Malone in any way, shape, or form, is almost blasphemy.

Please explain your post, because I find to be unjust and incredulous.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Leadership

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Please explain your post, because I find to be unjust and incredulous.

Karl Malone's 37 point game in the 1997 NBA Finals

Al Horford's career high vs Utah last season

The difference is that Malone could put up games like that much more frequently, than Horford could ever dream of. And the reason for that is because Malone was a triple threat PF. He could post you up and score. He could shoot the midrange jumper and score. And he can run the floor in transition and score.

Al Horford is good. But to compare him to Malone is kind of crazy. Don't be comparing him to arguably the best PF of all time.

[NekiEcko]

It has been a long time since we can discussion like this. For the question about Al Horford, there will be no more Karl Malone's in the NBA. Al is good player but he has the potential (Old School PF) but remember he was playing out of position for almost the entire time since got to Atlanta. If he was starting as PF, maybe his game would be better maybe closer to Karl but comparing him to Karl right now is not good. He is a better David Lee.

[NBASupes]

Karl Malone's 37 point game in the 1997 NBA Finals

Al Horford's career high vs Utah last season

The difference is that Malone could put up games like that much more frequently, than Horford could ever dream of. And the reason for that is because Malone was a triple threat PF. He could post you up and score. He could shoot the midrange jumper and score. And he can run the floor in transition and score.

Al Horford is good. But to compare him to Malone is kind of crazy. Don't be comparing him to arguably the best PF of all time.

Smh, did you even bother to read the previous posts?

Once again, what can Malone do ABILITY WISE that Horford can't do?

Not well Malone did this because him having elite playmaker in Stockton and playing next to a true center and makes a great difference. I am still trying to figure out how he is David Lee. Lee is inferior in terms of movement, defense, shooting, and finishing compared to Horford.

Malone post game wasn't any different than Horf. Similar moves. Similar strengths. Similar everything. Now Malone received much better entry passes but that's another advantage of playing with Stockton over average combo guards like Teague and Hinrich or over the hill balanced PG's like Bibby.

[NBASupes]

@northcyde, I watched the Jazz highlights v. the Bulls. Did you see anything Al couldn't do. At least 16 points I've haven't seen that any PG we had in our history aside from Pistol Pete would have made that these passes. That play at :54 is a prime example of what an elite playmaking PG can do with an elite movement PF.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Leadership

[Admin]

So Leadership your point is that Al can do all of those things that Malone can do, but he what... chooses not to do them? Wasn't allowed to do them? Is waiting to do them?

Come on man I love Al Horford as much as anyone but it's not a crime to say that he's nowhere near as skilled as Karl Malone, one of the greatest PF's ever, was.

[Guest]

Nekiecko I honestly wish this thread would stop as I'm having flashbacks.....

[Admin]

Smh, did you even bother to read the previous posts?

Once again, what can Malone do ABILITY WISE that Horford can't do?

Not well Malone did this because him having elite playmaker in Stockton and playing next to a true center and makes a great difference. I am still trying to figure out how he is David Lee. Lee is inferior in terms of movement, defense, shooting, and finishing compared to Horford.

Malone post game wasn't any different than Horf. Similar moves. Similar strengths. Similar everything. Now Malone received much better entry passes but that's another advantage of playing with Stockton over average combo guards like Teague and Hinrich or over the hill balanced PG's like Bibby.

This is how I feel this discussion is going among you all with Leadership playing the role of Jack Nicholson and the others in the debate playing the role of Adam Sandler.

[NBASupes]

So Leadership your point is that Al can do all of those things that Malone can do, but he what... chooses not to do them? Wasn't allowed to do them? Is waiting to do them?

Come on man I love Al Horford as much as anyone but it's not a crime to say that he's nowhere near as skilled as Karl Malone, one of the greatest PF's ever, was.

How is Malone more skilled? He more skilled because Stockton hits him for elite passes at the right time. Most of these differences is based on Stockton to Teague. Overall, Malone is not more skilled than Horford. When you say he is more skilled, show me where the more skill is. If you want to say Stockton is a superior PG to Jeff Teague. That would be a fairly obvious assessment.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Leadership

[Admin]

How is Malone more skilled? He more skilled because Stockton hits him for elite passes at the right time. Most of these differences is based on Stockton to Teague. Overall, Malone is not more skilled than Horford. When you say he is more skilled, show me where the more skill is. If you want to say Stockton is a superior PG to Jeff Teague. That would be a fairly obvious assessment.

I'm not going to restate what has been stated a dozen times in this thread about how Malone was more skilled. Good luck on this one to all involved!

[NBASupes]

So Leadership your point is that Al can do all of those things that Malone can do, but he what... chooses not to do them? Wasn't allowed to do them? Is waiting to do them?

Come on man I love Al Horford as much as anyone but it's not a crime to say that he's nowhere near as skilled as Karl Malone, one of the greatest PF's ever, was.

He does do them but as you seen v. Chicago, our PG's wouldn't make at least most of those reads which Stockton made v. Chicago and numerous other teams. Look at :55. Horford is running the floor like that constantly but do we hit him? No. When we are on fast break, do we hit Horford who is streaking down the court? No but what we have is Harris, Teague, and Smoove going 3-1 for a missed FG.

We don't have John Stockton. That's #1.

We don't have a playmaking PG. That's #2.

We have anti John Stockton's. That's #3.

We haven't had a good PG during Horford time in Atlanta. That's #4.

The biggest difference isn't Horford, it is who he's around and our system. Our best play was the Smith and Horford PnR because Teague PnR reads are amazingly awful. So bad I don't know how he made it at the position in college.

[Guest]

I'm not going to restate what has been stated a dozen times in this thread about how Malone was more skilled. Good luck on this one to all involved!

Yeah, I hear you Dolf - I gave up on this since yesterday.

[NBASupes]

I'm not going to restate what has been stated a dozen times in this thread about how Malone was more skilled. Good luck on this one to all involved!

No one has done it is the problem so what you would be doing is regurgitating stats which I thoughtfully broken down replying to AHF.

[NBASupes]

Let's be honest. Most of you guys think Malone is better because he's been more impactful and successful than Horford has been so far in his career. You seen him help get his team to the Finals twice and you seen Horford play a role with the Hawks where getting to the 2nd round has been their peak.

So it's not about skill or ability, it's about being proven and perception. Understood. Is it right? No but I understand.