This is a fantastic article!

[KB21]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9364989/san-antonio-spurs-doing-right-drafting-international-athletes-espn-magazine

I think this article is relevant to the Hawks and is worthy of being kept in the Homecourt area, because this philosophy may give us a good indication of the way Danny Ferry is going to build this team.

I've been telling people for a while now that the AAU racket in America is hurting American basketball. Young players in America today are being coddled. They are being told that they are great from a young age. Hard work is not being demanded from them. They are being coached on these AAU teams by mostly middle men who are taking money to try and deliver them to a college. A sense of entitlement ensues, and these players become very difficult to coach in college.

I'm a Mississippi State guy, and I saw this firsthand at Mississippi State with the likes of Kodi Augustus, Renardo Sydney, Ravern Johnson, Dee Bost, and Charles Rhodes over the last few years. Rick Stansbury brought these guys into the team, and probably because someone may have "aided" them at some point down the line, Rick was unable to reign these guys in and have them play hard and as a team. As a result, Rick lost his job.

How does this relate to the Hawks?

Well, I think Danny Ferry has first hand experience in an organization that catered to one individual player. I think he saw that first hand, and he knows it doesn't work when he compares it to what he experienced within the San Antonio Spurs organization.

This is one reason why I'm not convinced that the Hawks goal this offseason is to pursue Dwight Howard and Chris Paul. Why? Mainly because Dwight Howard is a guy that is searching for the limelight. He wants to go somewhere that he can be marketed, and Danny Ferry is more concerned with building something that can sustain success than he is with marketing a particular player or catering to a particular player.

This may also effect the draft. If they draft an American basketball player, it is going to be someone that hasn't been coddled and has shown the kind of work ethic and grit that Danny Ferry wants in his players. Players like Jamaal Franklin and Mason Plumlee fit this description. A player like Tony Mitchell likely need not apply.

I think it is very likely that one of the picks, if not both of the picks, is used on an International talent such as Giannis Adetokunpo or Sergey Karasev because you know they will come in and work hard because of their upbringing.

[Admin]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9364989/san-antonio-spurs-doing-right-drafting-international-athletes-espn-magazine

I think this article is relevant to the Hawks and is worthy of being kept in the Homecourt area, because this philosophy may give us a good indication of the way Danny Ferry is going to build this team.

It's fine in the Homecourt forum but let's avoid talking about specific draft prospects, otherwise it will belong in the draft forum.

I don't think that you have to go the international route to get guys who will come in and work hard though. Plus you get the benefit in most cases of getting guys who played against a superior level of competition and you can make a more accurate assessment of their skills and not take such a huge risk.

[coachx]

Have not read the article yet but the best thing about Adams and Dieng are they did not grow up in the AAU setting with Trooper Taylor types pimping teenagers out to the highest bidder.

[KB21]

Here are a few quotes from the article:

But to spend time inside the Spurs organization today is to uncover another interpretation of the Spurs dynasty: that as America's youth basketball pipeline has produced a type of player that Pop has no interest in coaching, he has found an advantage not only in targeting international players but in avoiding domestic ones.

Its headline: "The Entitlement Culture of Elite HS Hoops." In it, recruiting analyst Dave Telep writes about not only witnessing AAU players complain about the food at a Ritz in California during a tournament but also what he calls the slow and steady crumble of American grassroots basketball: loafing, lousy fundamentals, a pervasive disinterest from players in showcasing anything but themselves.

In AAU, anyone who pays a $16 fee and finishes a background check and an online clinic can coach. In the FIBA club system in Europe, although requirements vary from country to country, coaches must earn various licenses, which often require them to complete intensive training, covering everything from X's and O's to nutrition.

There is no doubt in my mind that at this current time, international players are brought up BETTER than domestic players from a coaching standpoint.

Consider Pop's brutal assessment that foreign players are "fundamentally harder working than most American kids," and it's no wonder the Spurs want to avoid the fate of so many NBA teams, which are, as Buford says, "the end of the road for the developmental habits that are built in the less-structured environment in the U.S."

Most of the foreign players not only have more experience playing basketball but more experience playing an unselfish style, with lots of passing and motion and screens, as messy as it is pure.

Of course, Pop's coaching style, as prescient as it is curmudgeonly, isn't for everyone. He's demanding and ruthless; his playbook is pick-and-roll heavy, more structured and complicated than European ball but a blood relative. The traits he scouts for -- players with "character," who've "gotten over themselves, who understand team play, who can cheer for a teammate," who "don't make excuses" -- hold true regardless of nationality.

To me, this will likely be the Hawks mantra as they build in the future.

The international kids, he says, "have less. They appreciate things more. And they're very coachable."

[Admin]

The Spurs are still relying heavily on American talent. Duncan, Leonard, Green, Neal, Blair, Joseph, Bonner are all North American players vs Manu, Parker, Splitter, Diaw and De Colo as non North American players. And truthfully outside of Parker and Manu their great Euro scouting hasn't really found all that much talent thus far.

[Plainview1981]

So... You're going to tell me that instead of going Howard and Paul that Ferry is going to target hard working role players and basically build a winning franchise off that?

Here is reality.... Star players win championships in this league. It's been true for decades, and it will be true in the future. You can come with this Hoosiers rah rah rah stuff about how you're going to build greatness out of "hardworking" role players, but its not reality.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Hotlanta1981

[Plainview1981]

Don't take that to mean that I don't agree that american players are pampered or that I'm against drafting foreign players and all of that because it is not true. I'm in favor of it. But I'm not going to say screw Chris Paul, Howard, Lebron etc.... But you aren't building greatness with hard working role players alone. I don't care who suggests that it will work. It ain't gunna work if that's the plan.

[NBASupes]

Didn't we have hard working players last year and when Deke was here and I never remember us being contenders once during that time. This is a stars league. Without Duncan, the Spurs don't work. You can have all the hard workers you want but you need talent.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Leadership

[NBASupes]

I remember when we had the hard working Mattola, Batista, Cal Bowdler, Chris Crawford, John Jenkins, Josh Smith,Al Horford, Wilks, Jacques Vaughn, and etc. Not one could lead us to the ECF. A lot of guys work hard in the NBA. AAU might be a scam but I seen UF with Horf and Noah. Those guys played their butts off. I seen G'Town play their butts off. I seen Duke play their butts off. So this whole thing about AAU screwing things up is true to a degree but not to a large degree in terms of NBA players.

[Diesel]

Two thoughts.

1. Looking at the AAU system and knowing some of it, you have to blame the shoe companies.

Shoe companies dictate AAU now. It used to be that AAU was just dedicated coaches who found good players/teams and matched them up against other good teams in order for the players to get experiences that can help them succeed in college. I remember going to AAU tourneys back in the day when guys would play and there were no shoe companies around. Just team vs.team for bragging rights.

Now, the Shoe companies control everything because they are trying to find the next Jordan. So they have paid the coaches to step aside and they have these guys doing nothing but slam dunk competitions. The players have started to believe that they call the shots. The companies pretty much guide these players lives even down to what college you go to for your one year. There are actually Nike and Adidas schools and coaches and programs. They follow these kids until they make pro and then they step out of the background and make a deal with the players.

2. I said a long time ago that Europlayers were just a fad. Like 6'7" PGs. My rationale then still remains the same. The Euro game is softer and less intense than the American game. It lacks physicality. So 85% or so of the players that come out of the international game are finesse players. The problem is that the NBA thrives (still) on Physical play. What happened in SA last night was proof of that. Miami turns up it's physicality and they win. A team like Indy is a threat to win it all because they are a bruising Physical team at it's core. The physicalness of US basketball is derived from the playground. At the playground, your hand is part of the ball and there is no offensive foul. I guess learning the sport from a Prison culture culture can really make players ready to succeed in the NBA.

[NBASupes]

Two thoughts.

1. Looking at the AAU system and knowing some of it, you have to blame the shoe companies.

Shoe companies dictate AAU now. It used to be that AAU was just dedicated coaches who found good players/teams and matched them up against other good teams in order for the players to get experiences that can help them succeed in college. I remember going to AAU tourneys back in the day when guys would play and there were no shoe companies around. Just team vs.team for bragging rights.

Now, the Shoe companies control everything because they are trying to find the next Jordan. So they have paid the coaches to step aside and they have these guys doing nothing but slam dunk competitions. The players have started to believe that they call the shots. The companies pretty much guide these players lives even down to what college you go to for your one year. There are actually Nike and Adidas schools and coaches and programs. They follow these kids until they make pro and then they step out of the background and make a deal with the players.

2. I said a long time ago that Europlayers were just a fad. Like 6'7" PGs. My rationale then still remains the same. The Euro game is softer and less intense than the American game. It lacks physicality. So 85% or so of the players that come out of the international game are finesse players. The problem is that the NBA thrives (still) on Physical play. What happened in SA last night was proof of that. Miami turns up it's physicality and they win. A team like Indy is a threat to win it all because they are a bruising Physical team at it's core. The physicalness of US basketball is derived from the playground. At the playground, your hand is part of the ball and there is no offensive foul. I guess learning the sport from a Prison culture culture can really make players ready to succeed in the NBA.

Even though you are now on my ignore list, this post is a five star post. First I've seen from you. I might reconsider you being off the ignore list. The Horford thread left an extremely bad taste in my mouth about your comprehenison skills and ability to reply and not just take bits and pieces to bs your thoughts which is shit posting.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Leadership

[KB21]

Tim Duncan is a Virgin Islands native who didn't grow up in the American basketball AAU system. Corey Joseph is also Canadian that didn't get brought up in the racket.

I don't disagree that the shoe companies are responsible for the AAU system, but it doesn't change the fact that these kids are not getting instructed on their skills in AAU. It's nothing but a big show, and it has hurt the quality of basketball in the US.

It is also bunk that the international style of play is not physical or is a more finesse style of play. The international game doesn't accentuate a player driving uncontrollably into the lane, drawing contact and hollering And1 like the AAU player in the article, but the international game is much more inside/out than the American game. The American game is one on one right now, period. It is a selfish style of play that hurts the quality of basketball in this country.

The defensive player of the year in the NBA this year was Marc Gasol, an international player. He's also not a finesse style player. Kosta Pekovic is one of the better free agents available, and he might be the most physical center in the NBA right now. Nicolas Batum is one of the best wing defenders in the NBA.

Here's what I think. I think American fans are so used to the poor style of play in this country that has too much playground influence that they don't realize good basketball when they see it. Gregg Popovich is one of the best in the league ever, and he recognizes it. What you construe as finesse is actually good, fundamental basketball that is being played the way it was intended to be played.

[NBASupes]

Corey Joseph is also Canadian that didn't get brought up in the racket.

Cory Joseph played AAU ball.

[Diesel]

Tim Duncan is a Virgin Islands native who didn't grow up in the American basketball AAU system. Corey Joseph is also Canadian that didn't get brought up in the racket.

I don't disagree that the shoe companies are responsible for the AAU system, but it doesn't change the fact that these kids are not getting instructed on their skills in AAU. It's nothing but a big show, and it has hurt the quality of basketball in the US.

It is also bunk that the international style of play is not physical or is a more finesse style of play. The international game doesn't accentuate a player driving uncontrollably into the lane, drawing contact and hollering And1 like the AAU player in the article, but the international game is much more inside/out than the American game. The American game is one on one right now, period. It is a selfish style of play that hurts the quality of basketball in this country.

The defensive player of the year in the NBA this year was Marc Gasol, an international player. He's also not a finesse style player. Kosta Pekovic is one of the better free agents available, and he might be the most physical center in the NBA right now. Nicolas Batum is one of the best wing defenders in the NBA.

Here's what I think. I think American fans are so used to the poor style of play in this country that has too much playground influence that they don't realize good basketball when they see it. Gregg Popovich is one of the best in the league ever, and he recognizes it. What you construe as finesse is actually good, fundamental basketball that is being played the way it was intended to be played.

I am not disagreeing with you there. Here's my take:

The international game is more likely to be fundamentally more sound. The reason why is because they have leagues that start early. The players over there learn the rules and the fundamentals and play in front of refs most of the time. So being Physical is not a part of their game. However, here, most kids play on the playground and then make their way into leagues. Depending on their situation, they don't play in front of refs. Here's the kicker. The playground players in the international countries are not likely to be their pro prospects. Here, our best playground players can be pro prospects.

About Duncan... He learned the game here. At Wake Forest. I think he was a walk on. Moreover, the AAU stuff just started getting bad over the last say 15 years. Before that, it was a different system.

Finally, I don't disqualify finesse play. I just think that players who can only play finesse are not built well enough for the NBA. Don't get me wrong, they can be stars, but they will be missing an aspect of the game that is critical to championship play. Dirk is a finesse player and he labored for a long time before he won a ring. It took him playing beside people who were tough.

[Plainview1981]

Here's what I think. I think American fans are so used to the poor style of play in this country that has too much playground influence that they don't realize good basketball when they see it. Gregg Popovich is one of the best in the league ever, and he recognizes it. What you construe as finesse is actually good, fundamental basketball that is being played the way it was intended to be played.

BS.

As great of a coach as Greg Pop is, he would have no titles without a superstar like Duncan.

The facts are that you don't build NBA championship teams around euro role players.

Didn't you also try to sell us on Billy Knight's great vision? A vision he started to admit was wrong when he traded for Mike Bibby.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Hotlanta1981

[KB21]

BS.

As great of a coach as Greg Pop is, he would have no titles without a superstar like Duncan.

The facts are that you don't build NBA championship teams around euro role players.

Didn't you also try to sell us on Billy Knight's great vision? A vision he started to admit was wrong when he traded for Mike Bibby.

Tell me, when was Duncan ever a selfish superstar? Was he a star? Yes. Gregg Popovich's philosophy has nothing to do with stars though. It has everything to do with the character and work ethic of the player. Tim Duncan is a player that has never been full of himself.

To this point, Dwight Howard is a player that has been full of himself. He will never win a championship until he realizes that he is part of a team and not just an individual player.

LeBron realized in Cleveland that he couldn't do it by himself.

Here's the thing though. San Antonio has had sustained success, not just a 2-3 year run. The reason is the philosophy they have in place. Tim Duncan was once an uber superstar. Today, he's just another player on that team. He's not the star he was 10 years ago.

[Vol4ever]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9364989/san-antonio-spurs-doing-right-drafting-international-athletes-espn-magazine

I think this article is relevant to the Hawks and is worthy of being kept in the Homecourt area, because this philosophy may give us a good indication of the way Danny Ferry is going to build this team.

I've been telling people for a while now that the AAU racket in America is hurting American basketball. Young players in America today are being coddled. They are being told that they are great from a young age. Hard work is not being demanded from them. They are being coached on these AAU teams by mostly middle men who are taking money to try and deliver them to a college. A sense of entitlement ensues, and these players become very difficult to coach in college.

I'm a Mississippi State guy, and I saw this firsthand at Mississippi State with the likes of Kodi Augustus, Renardo Sydney, Ravern Johnson, Dee Bost, and Charles Rhodes over the last few years. Rick Stansbury brought these guys into the team, and probably because someone may have "aided" them at some point down the line, Rick was unable to reign these guys in and have them play hard and as a team. As a result, Rick lost his job.

How does this relate to the Hawks?

Well, I think Danny Ferry has first hand experience in an organization that catered to one individual player. I think he saw that first hand, and he knows it doesn't work when he compares it to what he experienced within the San Antonio Spurs organization.

This is one reason why I'm not convinced that the Hawks goal this offseason is to pursue Dwight Howard and Chris Paul. Why? Mainly because Dwight Howard is a guy that is searching for the limelight. He wants to go somewhere that he can be marketed, and Danny Ferry is more concerned with building something that can sustain success than he is with marketing a particular player or catering to a particular player.

This may also effect the draft. If they draft an American basketball player, it is going to be someone that hasn't been coddled and has shown the kind of work ethic and grit that Danny Ferry wants in his players. Players like Jamaal Franklin and Mason Plumlee fit this description. A player like Tony Mitchell likely need not apply.

I think it is very likely that one of the picks, if not both of the picks, is used on an International talent such as Giannis Adetokunpo or Sergey Karasev because you know they will come in and work hard because of their upbringing.

While I agree with you to a point, you still have to factor the point that the Spurs had the first pick in the draft that landed two superstars players in Robinson and Duncan. If the stars had not lined up that gave the Spurs the first pick twice that netted two Superstar players, we would not even be talking about the Spurs period.

That is the problem with the Hawks, they will have to buy their superstar at inflated prices OR tank and hope on the stars for a lottery pick that nets a superstar player in that draft.

[Vol4ever]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9364989/san-antonio-spurs-doing-right-drafting-international-athletes-espn-magazine

I think this article is relevant to the Hawks and is worthy of being kept in the Homecourt area, because this philosophy may give us a good indication of the way Danny Ferry is going to build this team.

I've been telling people for a while now that the AAU racket in America is hurting American basketball. Young players in America today are being coddled. They are being told that they are great from a young age. Hard work is not being demanded from them. They are being coached on these AAU teams by mostly middle men who are taking money to try and deliver them to a college. A sense of entitlement ensues, and these players become very difficult to coach in college.

I'm a Mississippi State guy, and I saw this firsthand at Mississippi State with the likes of Kodi Augustus, Renardo Sydney, Ravern Johnson, Dee Bost, and Charles Rhodes over the last few years. Rick Stansbury brought these guys into the team, and probably because someone may have "aided" them at some point down the line, Rick was unable to reign these guys in and have them play hard and as a team. As a result, Rick lost his job.

How does this relate to the Hawks?

Well, I think Danny Ferry has first hand experience in an organization that catered to one individual player. I think he saw that first hand, and he knows it doesn't work when he compares it to what he experienced within the San Antonio Spurs organization.

This is one reason why I'm not convinced that the Hawks goal this offseason is to pursue Dwight Howard and Chris Paul. Why? Mainly because Dwight Howard is a guy that is searching for the limelight. He wants to go somewhere that he can be marketed, and Danny Ferry is more concerned with building something that can sustain success than he is with marketing a particular player or catering to a particular player.

This may also effect the draft. If they draft an American basketball player, it is going to be someone that hasn't been coddled and has shown the kind of work ethic and grit that Danny Ferry wants in his players. Players like Jamaal Franklin and Mason Plumlee fit this description. A player like Tony Mitchell likely need not apply.

I think it is very likely that one of the picks, if not both of the picks, is used on an International talent such as Giannis Adetokunpo or Sergey Karasev because you know they will come in and work hard because of their upbringing.

While I agree with you to a point, you still have to factor the point that the Spurs had the first pick in the draft that landed two superstars players in Robinson and Duncan. If the stars had not lined up that gave the Spurs the first pick twice that netted two Superstar players, we would not even be talking about the Spurs period.

That is the problem with the Hawks, they will have to buy their superstar at inflated prices OR tank and hope on the stars for a lottery pick that nets a superstar player in that draft.

[KB21]

Again, the point of the article is not that you don't need star players on your team. The point of the article is that to get the kind of player Pops wants on his team, he has chosen to go the international route because those players work harder and are more unselfish than American players.

I only use Dwight as an example of an American player because it is questionable whether he will buy into the team first concept. Can you see him reacting well to getting chewed out the way Pops does to Duncan? This is a player that is already responsible for one coach getting fired from his job and tried to get D'Antoni fired in LA.

[Plainview1981]

Again, the point of the article is not that you don't need star players on your team. The point of the article is that to get the kind of player Pops wants on his team, he has chosen to go the international route because those players work harder and are more unselfish than American players.

I only use Dwight as an example of an American player because it is questionable whether he will buy into the team first concept. Can you see him reacting well to getting chewed out the way Pops does to Duncan? This is a player that is already responsible for one coach getting fired from his job and tried to get D'Antoni fired in LA.

I'm sorry for being rude. I'm rude to you at times for no real reason. I've tried to clean up my cynicism on here to some degree, and its about time I stop being hostile toward you. Which I have been in the past.

I agree that Paul and Dwight have weaknesses, but this team really needs to come away with a guy they can build around. I'm fine if the Hawks are unable to land both, but I think we need one of those guys.