Merged: Discussion on Tanking

[Buzzard]

I hate to agree with Mace on generally anything but I think that he's right on this one Buzz.

If you're moving them before their rookie contract is up then that's gotta be before the trading deadline of their 4th year. I don't know how anyone defines "the iron being hot" or however y'all stated it but I'm guessing that means before other GMs realized the type of player that they would become and still had value from their draft position and "potential".

Bottom line for me is that Josh deserved his 2nd contract and was worth the amount that he got. Marvin did not deserve a 2nd contract and neither did Childress. I don't think that either had much value after their 3rd season and maybe not after their 2nd season. Before that I'm not sure how you could trade them as you wouldn't have had time to really evaluate their potential.

Of course its before their fourth year. More like in their 1st or 2nd for Marvin and Chilz to be honest. By end of their 3rd year I doubt very seriously if anyone considered them to be near lottery talent.

[Admin]

During the lottery era, the Cavs landed their 4 All-Stars in 3 consecutive years:

Cleveland Cavaliers - 1985 Charles Oakley (AS - idiotic trade to Chi); 1986 Ron Harper (AS); 1986 Brad Daugherty (AS); 1987 Kevin Johnson (AS)

and the Celtics landed their 3 All-Stars in consecutive drafts:

Boston Celtics - 1996 Antoine Walker (AS); 1997 Chauncey Billups (AS/HOF?); 1998 Paul Pierce (HOF)

MJ was one year before the lottery so his 3 in 4 years group doesn't count if that is your cutoff, however I am sure there are more examples, but I am not doing a review of the other 27 or so teams.

Jeez I didn't realize the lottery system had been around that long. So only 1 team, the Thunder, have done it since 1998 then? What's changed since then?

Of course its before their fourth year. More like in their 1st or 2nd for Marvin and Chilz to be honest. By end of their 3rd year I doubt very seriously if anyone considered them to be near lottery talent.

I'm not even sure that anyone other than BK thought that Childress was a lottery talent the year he was drafted. I was shocked that we took him that high and I think most people felt that way.

[Buzzard]

On drafting 3 All-Stars in a row, I agree that is very unusual but not unprecedented. I found two examples of that among the 3 teams I looked at (Boston, Chicago and Cleveland) with Cleveland actually drafting 4 All-Stars in 3 years (1 or 2 every year) during one 3 year period. Most teams have done some nice runs over 3 or 4 years.

Just looking at Boston, Cleveland, and Chicago I found:

Over 3 years:

Chicago Bulls - Michael Jordan (Hall of Fame); Horace Grant (All-Star); Scottie Pippen (HOF)

Boston Celtics - KC Jones (HOF); Tom Heinsen (HOF); Sam Jones (HOF);

Boston Celtics - Antoine Walker (AS); Chauncey Billups (AS/HOF?); Paul Pierce (HOF)

Cleveland Cavaliers - Charles Oakley (AS - idiotic trade to Chi); Ron Harper (AS); Brad Daugherty (AS); Kevin Johnson (AS)

Over 4 years:

Boston Celtics - Bob Cousey (HOF); Frank Ramsey (HOF); Bill Russell (HOF)

Boston Celtics - Jo Jo White (AS); Dave Cowens (HOF); Paul Westphal (AS)

Boston Celtics - Cedric Maxwell (Finals MVP); Larry Bird (HOF); Kevin McHale (HOF)

I found lot of examples of two All-Stars in 2 years for these teams such as Cleveland's: (Lebron James; Carlos Boozer); (John Johnson; Austin Carr); (Dan Roundfield; Campy Russell); and (Bill Lambier; Mike Mitchell).

I get what you are saying and know a lot of teams have made great draft runs. Lakers come to mind with the real Showtime. But still you are using all rounds and all picks.

How many of those teams had that two all-star run, Durant #2 and Westbrook #4, using just their two lottery picks two seasons in a row? It seems to me 1/2 this board is crying to tank for the lottery when perhaps what you are showing is most great draft runs are not made in the lottery.

[AHF]

Jeez I didn't realize the lottery system had been around that long. So only 1 team, the Thunder, have done it since 1998 then? What's changed since then?

I'm not even sure that anyone other than BK thought that Childress was a lottery talent the year he was drafted. I was shocked that we took him that high and I think most people felt that way.

No, no. The Cavs and Celtics both had those runs in the lottery era and I haven't looked at any other teams besides the Bulls so other teams have almost certainly done it but I didn't look for them.

[Admin]

No, no. The Cavs and Celtics both had those runs in the lottery era and I haven't looked at any other teams besides the Bulls so other teams have almost certainly done it but I didn't look for them.

No? The last pick I see among those teams you listed was 1998 so only the Thunder have done it since then. Or do you think that there could have been teams other than the Thunder that you didn't look up?

[AHF]

I get what you are saying and know a lot of teams have made great draft runs. Lakers come to mind with the real Showtime. But still you are using all rounds and all picks.

How many of those teams had that two all-star run, Durant #2 and Westbrook #4, using just their two lottery picks two seasons in a row? It seems to me 1/2 this board is crying to tank for the lottery when perhaps what you are showing is most great draft runs are not made in the lottery.

I just gave you two from the lottery era: Boston drafted All-Star at #6 in 1996; All-Star at #3 in 1997; All-Star at #10 in 1998. Cleveland drafted All-Star at #9 in 1985; All-Star at #1 in 1986; All-Star at #8 in 1987; and All-Star at #7 in 1988..

I must not be writing very clearly because I am not on the same page as the people reading my posts right now!

[AHF]

No? The last pick I see among those teams you listed was 1998 so only the Thunder have done it since then. Or do you think that there could have been teams other than the Thunder that you didn't look up?

I suspect since I only looked at 3 teams that others have done it but you have to also consider that you don't have much of a window for a lot of these people. Is Dion Waiters an All-Star today? No. Will he be when his career is done? Who knows.

It is tougher to assess recent years because you lack the data unless someone is an instant Kyrie Irving type of success.

[Admin]

I suspect since I only looked at 3 teams that others have done it but you have to also consider that you don't have much of a window for a lot of these people. Is Dion Waiters an All-Star today? No. Will he be when his career is done? Who knows.

It is tougher to assess recent years because you lack the data unless someone is an instant Kyrie Irving type of success.

I'm sure it would be time consuming but there would definitely be enough evidence between 98 and say 08. But it's not that big of a deal for me to look up or ask anyone else to look up.

For me I'm firmly in the camp of trying the make the best picks possible without tanking and try to acquire assets to use in trades for star players while hoping to hit on a star player with one of your picks.

[Buzzard]

I just gave you two from the lottery era: Boston drafted All-Star at #6 in 1996; All-Star at #3 in 1997; All-Star at #10 in 1998. Cleveland drafted All-Star at #9 in 1985; All-Star at #1 in 1986; All-Star at #8 in 1987; and All-Star at #7 in 1988..

I must not be writing very clearly because I am not on the same page as the people reading my posts right now!

No but you also posted the Cavs with Bron at #1 and Booz who was taken in the 2nd round. So it is a little confusing and possibly misleading for those that want to tank into the lottery cause that is were the Championship hides!

[AHF]

No but you also posted the Cavs with Bron at #1 and Booz who was taken in the 2nd round. So it is a little confusing and possibly misleading for those that want to tank into the lottery cause that is were the Championship hides!

Lebron was the reason they made it to the finals so I don't think that was confusing but I get what you are saying. The original post was in response to whoever said that picking 3 All-Stars in a row was probably unprecedented in NBA history without any qualifiers about where people were drafted so that is why I didn't start putting in qualifiers that the OP didn't put in but it has definitely happened multiple times even with the lottery qualifiers.

[Buzzard]

Lebron was the reason they made it to the finals so I don't think that was confusing but I get what you are saying. The original post was in response to whoever said that picking 3 All-Stars in a row was probably unprecedented in NBA history without any qualifiers about where people were drafted so that is why I didn't start putting in qualifiers that the OP didn't put in but it has definitely happened multiple times even with the lottery qualifiers.

I get it now. I was thinking of Durant and Westbrook but I did see the reply back about Hardin and Serge. It is harder to find all star talent now in any round. Wheras back in the dark ages, 60s for instance, there was 10 rounds/100 picks and only ten teams lol.

Oh and they had this thing called a territorial pick. Any super player in your area, you could forfeit your first round pick and take him.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Buzzard

[AHF]

I'm sure it would be time consuming but there would definitely be enough evidence between 98 and say 08. But it's not that big of a deal for me to look up or ask anyone else to look up.

For me I'm firmly in the camp of trying the make the best picks possible without tanking and try to acquire assets to use in trades for star players while hoping to hit on a star player with one of your picks.

I just did a bit of random flipping.

Toronto had Marcus Camby; Vince Carter; and Tracy McGrady in consecutive seasons. They then flipped their #5 pick the next season for All-Star (with TOR) Antonio Davis.

You will definitely have some good 3 and 4 years runs like Mike Bibby, Pau Gasol & Steve Francis over 4 years for VAN (looked up Bibby and remembered he was a VAN pick before being shipped to SAC).

If you want to see an example of total incompetence, you can see the T-Wolves who drafted and could have kept: Brandon Roy #6; Kevin Love #5; Ricky Rubio #6; and Ty Lawson #18 over 4 years. (Anyone thinking the Clippers are regretting not having Blake Griffin and Kyrie Irving together?)

Another nice run over 3 consecutive seasons: Chicago: Lamarcus Aldridge #2 (stupidly traded - I wanted this guy in ATL); Joakim Noah #9; Derrick Rose #1.

Golden State has a shot with their lottery run of Stephen Curry, Klay Thompson and Harrison Barnes over 4 years. Detroit is another team today that could end up with a good run of All-Stars if their guys pan out.

Part of the problem with limiting this to lottery picks is that the teams that hit big on a guy like Lebron James or Dwight Howard aren't in the lottery long enough to put together those runs after landing the guy a lot of the times so you are really restricting your pool.

Edited June 20, 2013 by AHF

[capstone21]

I am against tanking ... Watching those teams in the early 2000s was brutal and it seemed like it took forever for us to be competitive again. Try watching last years Charlotte all year....ugh.

[Buzzard]

I just did a bit of random flipping.

Toronto had Marcus Camby; Vince Carter; and Tracy McGrady in consecutive seasons. They then flipped their #5 pick the next season for All-Star (with TOR) Antonio Davis.

You will definitely have some good 3 and 4 years runs like Mike Bibby, Pau Gasol & Steve Francis over 4 years for VAN (looked up Bibby and remembered he was a VAN pick before being shipped to SAC).

If you want to see an example of total incompetence, you can see the T-Wolves who drafted and could have kept: Brandon Roy #6; Kevin Love #5; Ricky Rubio #6; and Ty Lawson #18 over 4 years.

Another nice run over 3 consecutive seasons: Chicago: Lamarcus Aldridge #2 (stupidly traded - I wanted this guy in ATL); Joakim Noah #9; Derrick Rose #1.

Golden State has a shot with their lottery run of Stephen Curry, Klay Thompson and Harrison Barnes over 4 years. Detroit is another team today that could end up with a good run of All-Stars if their guys pan out.

Part of the problem with limiting this to lottery picks is that the teams that hit big on a guy like Lebron James or Dwight Howard aren't in the lottery long enough to put together those runs a lot of the times so you are really restricting your pool.

Durant was not good enough to keep OKC out of the lottery and nether was Kobe the year they got Bynum at 10th. I think the real problem is not many teams make two great picks in a row. Hell half of them drop the ball every year.

[AHF]

I am against tanking ... Watching those teams in the early 2000s was brutal and it seemed like it took forever for us to be competitive again. Try watching last years Charlotte all year....ugh.

Charlotte would suck terribly if they were trying to spend. In fact, I think they have acquired several terrible players with big pay checks like signing Tyrus Thomas for $12M/season or Ben Gordon at $14M. They are just incompetent and incompetent management is going to destroy a team.

MJ is going in the hall of shame as an executive and owner.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I know you are JJ's biggest fan and supporter around here, or at least tied with Sothron, but getting cap relief from that enormous contract will keep it from being a debacle no matter which free agents we get. I mean do you realize that for the next 3 years we would have had a declining JJ making 33% or more of our salary cap? That's just insane and the fact that we don't have that type of enormous restraint allows us to re-tool the roster in any way that Ferry wants. I think that everyone here should be naming their next born children after the man for that trade.

Dolfan, my whole thing with JJ is that we got pennies on the dollar for him. We got an extra 1st round pick that people are now trying to deem as unimportant now, but acted like it was great just a few months back. If the Hawks aren't willing to use their significant cap space now, you have to wonder when they will ever use it. If we can't attract one of the two marquee names right now, and are not willing to bring in 2nd tier guys, what good was the cap space?My issue isn't that we traded JJ. My issue is that we threw him away.

[AHF]

Northcyde / Dolfan - This goes back to a value question. Northcyde sees JJ attracting a lottery pick in a trade while Dolfan (and most people on here) saw JJ as a negative value asset we were lucky to unload.

Unless you resolve the value disconnect, nothing from that point is going to flow in the same direction.

[Buzzard]

My issue isn't that we traded JJ. My issue is that we threw him away.

I bet you a dollar to a doughnut NJ fans are wishing two things right now. They had not signed Humphries at 2 years/24 million and they did not have JJ at 20 something million a season. They absolutely cannot get Howard now.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Buzzard

[Admin]

I just did a bit of random flipping.

Toronto had Marcus Camby; Vince Carter; and Tracy McGrady in consecutive seasons. They then flipped their #5 pick the next season for All-Star (with TOR) Antonio Davis.

You will definitely have some good 3 and 4 years runs like Mike Bibby, Pau Gasol & Steve Francis over 4 years for VAN (looked up Bibby and remembered he was a VAN pick before being shipped to SAC).

If you want to see an example of total incompetence, you can see the T-Wolves who drafted and could have kept: Brandon Roy #6; Kevin Love #5; Ricky Rubio #6; and Ty Lawson #18 over 4 years. (Anyone thinking the Clippers are regretting not having Blake Griffin and Kyrie Irving together?)

Another nice run over 3 consecutive seasons: Chicago: Lamarcus Aldridge #2 (stupidly traded - I wanted this guy in ATL); Joakim Noah #9; Derrick Rose #1.

Golden State has a shot with their lottery run of Stephen Curry, Klay Thompson and Harrison Barnes over 4 years. Detroit is another team today that could end up with a good run of All-Stars if their guys pan out.

Part of the problem with limiting this to lottery picks is that the teams that hit big on a guy like Lebron James or Dwight Howard aren't in the lottery long enough to put together those runs after landing the guy a lot of the times so you are really restricting your pool.

Thank you for taking the time to look that up. You've cleared it up for me and I no longer think this trend ended in 98 as I did earlier in thread.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

No, because we know for absolute fact that Ferry jumped on the very first deal that was offered for him and was raped on it because we couldn't even walk away with Jordan Craw....I mean Marshon Brooks. He could of waited to the deadline and gotten more for his 6 time All Star like Pau Gasol or just done the Marvin deal for Devin and watched Joe lead us to the ECF especially in a year that Rose and Rondo were injured and as the years went on his deal would of only become easier to move for more valuable longer contracts that other teams just weren't interested in for any particular reason. Did I cover the entire North argument?

Pretty much. Good job.I personally would've loved to see what the Lakers would've done back in December, if we offered up a swap of Pau Gasol for JJ. He'd get to team up with his former coach and PG, while balancing the Laker attack. And Atlanta could've obtained a center who could not only score in the low post, but is an excellent passer.But nope. That wouldn't fit "Ferry's" vision. A 3 pronged frontline attack of very good players just wouldn't work, even if it would be something that the Heat would have trouble dealing with.Let's hope Ferry can convince the two stars to come to ATL. IF NOT, then the era of losing will descend on us rapidly, since even 2nd tier players aren't worth spending money on. People would rather spend on Zaza, Korver, and Devin, than to bring in actual talent.