Merged: Discussion on Tanking

[Admin]

Dolfan, my whole thing with JJ is that we got pennies on the dollar for him. We got an extra 1st round pick that people are now trying to deem as unimportant now, but acted like it was great just a few months back. If the Hawks aren't willing to use their significant cap space now, you have to wonder when they will ever use it. If we can't attract one of the two marquee names right now, and are not willing to bring in 2nd tier guys, what good was the cap space?My issue isn't that we traded JJ. My issue is that we threw him away.

I would rather have the flexibility to use that cap space for the next 3 years, even if we don't use it, then have a ball dominant and declining player completely keep us from being able to make any real moves. It's kinda like would you want to be married to an ugly chick for the next 3 years or be alone with the chance to meet a good looking woman. I know which one I am picking, even if it means I might be alone the whole time.

Northcyde / Dolfan - This goes back to a value question. Northcyde sees JJ attracting a lottery pick in a trade while Dolfan (and most people on here) saw JJ as a negative value asset we were lucky to unload.

Unless you resolve the value disconnect, nothing from that point is going to flow in the same direction.

So you're saying we shouldn't completely divert this topic by going off on a JJ trade tangent?

[Admin]

Pretty much. Good job.I personally would've loved to see what the Lakers would've done back in December, if we offered up a swap of Pau Gasol for JJ. He'd get to team up with his former coach and PG, while balancing the Laker attack. And Atlanta could've obtained a center who could not only score in the low post, but is an excellent passer.But nope. That wouldn't fit "Ferry's" vision. A 3 pronged frontline attack of very good players just wouldn't work, even if it would be something that the Heat would have trouble dealing with.Let's hope Ferry can convince the two stars to come to ATL. IF NOT, then the era of losing will descend on us rapidly, since even 2nd tier players aren't worth spending money on. People would rather spend on Zaza, Korver, and Devin, than to bring in actual talent.

And again I'd rather have a shot at Howard / Paul or anyone else than have that $20 million Gasol contract weighing us down this offseason. Plus I highly doubt that LAL would have traded for JJ when they're spending $38 on Kobe and MWP.

I'm not sure who these people are that you referring to who would rather spend on Zaza, Korver and Devin than to bring in actual talent. Can you give any examples?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I bet you a dollar to a doughnut NJ fans are wishing two things right now. They had not signed Humphries at 2 years/24 million and they did not have JJ at 20 something million a season. They absolutely cannot get Howard now.

You're half right. Most of them hate the Humphries deal. But they also hate the Wallace deal, and the fact that Reggie Evans starts, before they hate JJ. At least with JJ, they can literally say that when he was healthy, he was a great closer for them at the end of games, even won about 5 of them .

JJ's mammoth contract is far less of a detriment, than the money they've spent on role players like Wallace, Humphries and, Teletovic.

The Nets did what they had to do, to get out of the bottom. They constructed a team of 2nd tier guys that were hurt 1/2 the year, but realistically needed an entire season and some coaching stability, in order for them to gel.

But they could've easily done what most of the people suggest the Hawks do . . . stack up their young talent. They could've had Derek Favors, maybe Enes Kanter ( if they drafted him ), would now have Damian Lilliard, and had the draft pick that they gave us. That's a nice selection of young talent, with Lilliard being the best of the bunch. But that's still a losing team, until we see if Lilliard can be "an engine".

It's hard for me to fault what Brooklyn did, when they did exactly what the Hawks are doing now. While they did at least get Devin Harris and 2 low to mid 1st round picks for Jason Kidd, they basically gave Vince Carter and Richard Jefferson away for trash. Then they descended to the very bottom, got one top 3 lottery pick ( Favors ), but couldn't stand losing for 3.5 years before making the trade for Deron Williams. Then they still lost, and made the trade for JJ.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

And again I'd rather have a shot at Howard / Paul or anyone else than have that $20 million Gasol contract weighing us down this offseason. Plus I highly doubt that LAL would have traded for JJ when they're spending $38 on Kobe and MWP.

I'm not sure who these people are that you referring to who would rather spend on Zaza, Korver and Devin than to bring in actual talent. Can you give any examples?

You keep saying what the Lakers might not do, but we all know that franchise is driven by winning . . . at all cost. They don't care about money like the cash strapped Hawks would. A swap of JJ and Gasol last year was a "whopping" 750K difference. This year, it would be a 2.2 million difference.

The transition year for the Lakers was/is going to be in the summer of 2014 anyway, when Kobe's contract ran out, and the only person under contract "right now" is going to be Steve Nash . . a player I could see them dealing away sometime next season, if things go south without Kobe.

So you're telling me that you haven't seen people on the board that would rather pay little for guys like Zaza and Korver, than to spend a decent amount on guys like Jefferson and even Iguodala? I don't think anybody is maxing either of those two guys out, but they will get a contract in the tens of millions per year. But 1/2 of the board wouldn't even want Jefferson on board, and instead would rather keep Zaza and Korver.

As I said . . . there's no such thing as "halfway tanking". If we're going to tank, a guy like Horford should NOT be in the Hawks future. Trade him away too, and start from the very ground floor. Sign everybody's favorite role players, but don't sign a significant free agent, not even Teague.

[Buzzard]

You're half right. Most of them hate the Humphries deal. But they also hate the Wallace deal, and the fact that Reggie Evans starts, before they hate JJ. At least with JJ, they can literally say that when he was healthy, he was a great closer for them at the end of games, even won about 5 of them .

It's hard for me to fault what Brooklyn did, when they did exactly what the Hawks are doing now. While they did at least get Devin Harris and 2 low to mid 1st round picks for Jason Kidd, they basically gave Vince Carter and Richard Jefferson away for trash. Then they descended to the very bottom, got one top 3 lottery pick ( Favors ), but couldn't stand losing for 3.5 years before making the trade for Deron Williams. Then they still lost, and made the trade for JJ.

You are living in JJ lala land North. Humphries and Wallace combined make 22.2 million, Throw in Evans and its 24.0. I think they can live with that a hell of a lot more than paying 21.4 for one player who put up 16, 3, 3.5 while shooting 423 FG %. Humphries and Evans come off the books after 13/14. They will still owe JJ 48 million vs Wallace 20 million over those next two years.

Now your 2nd point. How are we doing what they did? If we end up paying any one player 22 million it will be D12, 17 to 20 it will be CP3. Unless you think we are going to sign someone like JJ to that, I don't see how we compare at all to the Nets.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Buzzard

[TheFuzz]

1/2 of the board wouldn't even want Jefferson on board, and instead would rather keep Zaza and Korver.

Look, I don't want to be a complete snob, but I'll say this: I'm one of those guys, and the reason is Al Jefferson is AT BEST a limited #2/3 option on a championship contender who is awful defensively and plays best at a glacial pace. I could see Boston looking into him, and other than that I have no clue. Maybe Philadelphia.

I guess I can understand the fascination with Jefferson. He's got a prettyish post game and he rebounds, but we legitimately had two players better than him last year and we saw how that turned out.

[Diesel]

I would rather have the flexibility to use that cap space for the next 3 years, even if we don't use it, then have a ball dominant and declining player completely keep us from being able to make any real moves. It's kinda like would you want to be married to an ugly chick for the next 3 years or be alone with the chance to meet a good looking woman. I know which one I am picking, even if it means I might be alone the whole time.

So you're saying we shouldn't completely divert this topic by going off on a JJ trade tangent?

What good is cap space that we don't use? This has always been the problem I have with any capspace deal. If you get capspace for a player of value then you ought to get something more than expanding contracts and journeymen for that capspace. Capspace has no position. Capspace flexibility can't post up anybody. Capspace flexibility doesn't give you 18/8. All capspace flexibility does is give you the possibility of signing somebody. SO if you don't sign anybody of merit, it's a loss... plain and simple.

[Diesel]

The Nets did what they had to do, to get out of the bottom. They constructed a team of 2nd tier guys that were hurt 1/2 the year, but realistically needed an entire season and some coaching stability, in order for them to gel.

But they could've easily done what most of the people suggest the Hawks do . . . stack up their young talent. They could've had Derek Favors, maybe Enes Kanter ( if they drafted him ), would now have Damian Lilliard, and had the draft pick that they gave us. That's a nice selection of young talent, with Lilliard being the best of the bunch. But that's still a losing team, until we see if Lilliard can be "an engine".

It's hard for me to fault what Brooklyn did, when they did exactly what the Hawks are doing now. While they did at least get Devin Harris and 2 low to mid 1st round picks for Jason Kidd, they basically gave Vince Carter and Richard Jefferson away for trash. Then they descended to the very bottom, got one top 3 lottery pick ( Favors ), but couldn't stand losing for 3.5 years before making the trade for Deron Williams. Then they still lost, and made the trade for JJ.

I think that this great point will be missed by all the diversions. NJ is not somebody to be pointed at and mocked but right now, they are to be held up as an example of what can happen and their history shows us something. As NJ, they were the little brother to the Knicks. The little dirty brother. Like us, they had to rely on trades to get good players and usually had to overpay. They tried trading away their best players to get youth. Then they scrapped youth in order to get vets. We're on that same road and you guys are missing it.

[ViperXX79]

And how well did that work out for NJ? They're still the "little dirty brother" of the Knicks and aren't getting any better. Only thing they've done is tie up their cap in players that won't win anything or than a 3 or 4 seed and that's being generous. Hawks have been there and done that. It doesn't satisfy anyone and shouldn't.

[Admin]

What good is cap space that we don't use? This has always been the problem I have with any capspace deal. If you get capspace for a player of value then you ought to get something more than expanding contracts and journeymen for that capspace. Capspace has no position. Capspace flexibility can't post up anybody. Capspace flexibility doesn't give you 18/8. All capspace flexibility does is give you the possibility of signing somebody. SO if you don't sign anybody of merit, it's a loss... plain and simple.

1. We have 3 more years to use that cap space. No need to rush out and overpay someone right now if we can't get one of the superstars to sign.2. We could sign Mayo to play SG for 1/3 of what JJ makes and get equal, if not better production with OJ getting better and JJ declining.3. We have already seen we were exactly as good with Harris / Lou at SG as we were with JJ and that's without using up all of that cap space so yeah we won that trade no matter how you look at it, even if we don't sign a superstar.

[Admin]

You keep saying what the Lakers might not do, but we all know that franchise is driven by winning . . . at all cost. They don't care about money like the cash strapped Hawks would. A swap of JJ and Gasol last year was a "whopping" 750K difference. This year, it would be a 2.2 million difference. The transition year for the Lakers was/is going to be in the summer of 2014 anyway, when Kobe's contract ran out, and the only person under contract "right now" is going to be Steve Nash . . a player I could see them dealing away sometime next season, if things go south without Kobe. So you're telling me that you haven't seen people on the board that would rather pay little for guys like Zaza and Korver, than to spend a decent amount on guys like Jefferson and even Iguodala? I don't think anybody is maxing either of those two guys out, but they will get a contract in the tens of millions per year. But 1/2 of the board wouldn't even want Jefferson on board, and instead would rather keep Zaza and Korver. As I said . . . there's no such thing as "halfway tanking". If we're going to tank, a guy like Horford should NOT be in the Hawks future. Trade him away too, and start from the very ground floor. Sign everybody's favorite role players, but don't sign a significant free agent, not even Teague.

1. Trading JJ and not signing a superstar this offseason does not equal tanking. No need to overreact and trade Horford, who has a great contract and has excellent production relative to that contract.2. You missed the point about the Lakers. They weren't going to take balanced salary like they had between Gasol at PF and MWP/Kobe at the wings and then screw that balance up by trading for JJ, putting MWP on the bench and then having an enormous hole at PF. I mean come on that's your entire salary cap now used up at SG-SF and you've got nobody to play PF. Use some logic here North.3. You are now moving the goal posts about the Zaza Korver level players. Before it was people wanting to "spend", aka overpay, them and now you're saying small contracts for them? Of course most sensible people would rather sign productive bench players to small contracts vs overpaying for B/C level free agents like Jefferson, who sucks at D and is terribly inefficient, and Iggy, who is limited offensively and is declining as a player. What's so confusing about that logic?

[Buzzard]

Pretty much. Good job.I personally would've loved to see what the Lakers would've done back in December, if we offered up a swap of Pau Gasol for JJ. He'd get to team up with his former coach and PG, while balancing the Laker attack. And Atlanta could've obtained a center who could not only score in the low post, but is an excellent passer.

I would rather be able to sign one Tyreke and one Al Jefferson this off season to one Gasol last season and this. Ferry is just smarter than most of us when it comes to budgeting.

[Guest Zone]

And how well did that work out for NJ? They're still the "little dirty brother" of the Knicks and aren't getting any better. Only thing they've done is tie up their cap in players that won't win anything or than a 3 or 4 seed and that's being generous. Hawks have been there and done that. It doesn't satisfy anyone and shouldn't.

Exactly. I've seen seen people refer to them as the new Atlanta Hawks and it's the truth. They're a capped out team with a second round playoff ceiling. Nothing is pretty or appealing about their situation.We have to avoid going on that road again.

[NBASupes]

I think this is the perfect tank plan:

We just need to accumulate assets like 2014 1st round picks

Trade Jeff to Indy for their 2014 1st and Gerald Green contract. His contract sucks but it's not too bad and we can continue to tank.

Trade Josh for a 2014 1st. There are a lot of teams in the mix for Smoove. Let's use a team who wants Smith but they can't offer him the money he wants like take Kwame Brown's contract and their 2014 1st rounder for Smoove. That should give us enough money and gives them the rim protector they greatly need.

That gives us, three 1st round picks in 2014. One late 1st, one 20-25 1st, and one lotto pick. Gives us contracts like Kwame and Gerald which is a combined 7.5 mil. That means we would have a likely total of 32-33 mil which still puts us completely under the cap floor by a lot. We can still trade for other players with big contracts who are greatly overpaid and cut them ASAP just to know they are just cap. When we do that, we can easily get another 1st 2014 which would give us four 1st round picks in the 2014 draft which we can use to move up a spot and maneuver the draft.

I really think we can get a 1st for Jeff. Josh, I am not sure about but I think we can. We can get a big terrible contract and get a 1st or even two or three of them. So we can stockpile assets and tank. The great thing is, we don't have to be over the floor till the 13-2014 season ends so if can just sit until we see a decent trade to take a bad contract that we like is on the table.

[NBASupes]

Gerald Green is an excellent tanking starting SF.

[NBASupes]

Durant was not good enough to keep OKC out of the lottery and nether was Kobe the year they got Bynum at 10th. I think the real problem is not many teams make two great picks in a row. Hell half of them drop the ball every year.

The great thing is in 2003/2004. The NBA was really weak. If you had decent talent, you were a lock of a playoff team. If we were awful, you still could easily be out of the top 5. Nowadays, if you are bad, you are a lock for the top 5 pick. The NBA is just much deeper nowadays.

We can get two straight high lotto picks. Get someone like Wiggins or Parker. Then get Okafor or who ever and we are built for to be the best NBA team for years to come.

PG

Jenkins

Wiggins or Parker

Horford

Okafor

We can win a lot of titles in the future with this squad.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Leadership

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1. Trading JJ and not signing a superstar this offseason does not equal tanking. No need to overreact and trade Horford, who has a great contract and has excellent production relative to that contract.2. You missed the point about the Lakers. They weren't going to take balanced salary like they had between Gasol at PF and MWP/Kobe at the wings and then screw that balance up by trading for JJ, putting MWP on the bench and then having an enormous hole at PF. I mean come on that's your entire salary cap now used up at SG-SF and you've got nobody to play PF. Use some logic here North.3. You are now moving the goal posts about the Zaza Korver level players. Before it was people wanting to "spend", aka overpay, them and now you're saying small contracts for them? Of course most sensible people would rather sign productive bench players to small contracts vs overpaying for B/C level free agents like Jefferson, who sucks at D and is terribly inefficient, and Iggy, who is limited offensively and is declining as a player. What's so confusing about that logic?

1) Trading JJ, and not using that cap space to bring in a significant player, or a group of players that can help you now, is indeed failure, and may as well equal tanking.

And Al Horford isn't just going to sit back and lose for everybody, just because they want the Hawks to get a lottery pick. We went 4 - 0 without Josh Smith in the lineup, seeing Teague and Horford leading the team, and having role players like Ivan stepping up big time. That 4 - 0 would mean little, except we took out 4 playoff teams. So if the Hawks want to be bad next year, it is in their best interest to trade away Horford for guys like Tyrus Thomas or somebody.

2) The Lakers were dang near in panic mode. That's a team that cares less about how much they're paying people, and more about how much they're winning. Even if that meant rolling with a 100 million payroll with Kobe, Dwight, and JJ taking up over 70 million, they'd do whatever it took to put a winner on the floor. Especially now, with the Clippers vying for dollars in their market . . and getting a nice chunk of it.

And you're talking about Mike D'Antoni here. A guy who flat out missued Gasol until the team itself basically started to play the way THEY wanted to play.

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/8867466/pau-gasol-los-angeles-lakers-come-bench

Quote from D'Antoni:

"We got to go small," D'Antoni said before the Lakers played the Chicago Bulls on Monday. "That's just the way it is. It's after he had a great game -- it's not him. I talked to him about it and he understands where we have to go and we got to do it.

"He's going to come in off the bench at the five primarily and if we can sneak some minutes in with (Gasol and Dwight Howard) both together, good. If we can't, we can't. But, we just have to do that as a team."

That was a dude that had no clue whatsoever how to use both Gasol and Howard together. His solution was to do like what people say Lebron and Wade should do . . play significant chunks of the game without the other on the floor . . so they can maximize the talents of each player. D'Antoni basically benched Gasol for Earl Clark, a guy who could spread the floor with his 50% eFG ( err . . . 33% 3FG shooting ), just so that he could go small, and run his run and gun offense.

Gasol quote in that article:

"I've never come off the bench in my career," said Gasol last week, who started his first 345 games as a Laker and 816 of 823 games in his 12-year career coming into Monday. "(The Miami loss) was my first game off the bench with the Lakers, maybe a couple other games due to injuries, but that's it. I've been a starter my entire career. I've been a star starter my entire career, so I want to continue to be a star starter."

More of D'Antoni:

"Right now, we're better when we're small," D'Antoni said. "So, it's hard during a game to say, 'OK, now we're better when we're big.' It's hard to do that. You have to have an identity. We got to create the identity and we have to be able to play that way and there will be ebbs and flows of the game ...

"There will be times out there that we lose and we get beat because we don't have enough height, but you can't keep going back and forth and guessing and hoping. We are going to be who we are and we're going to play a certain way and I hope that's good enough."

So say we kept JJ, and he was as efficient around his old teammates like back in 2011 - 12, than he was around his new teammates in Brooklyn in 2012 - 13. Sund calls Kupchak and says . . "Hey, I hear you're having chemistry problems. Your coach wants to go small and play faster, and we need a guy who can play center, to free up Horford to play more power forward. How about doing a 1 for 1 swap? JJ for Pau."

Atlanta

PG - Teague

G - Harris

F - Smith

PF - Horford

C - Gasol

LA Lakers

PG - Nash

G - Kobe

F - Johnson

PF - Clark ( who put up a few double-doubles when Howard and/or Gasol were out, gaining the trust of D'Antoni )

C - Howard

Considering that the two players the Laker fans would like to get rid of most is Gasol and Artest, whose to say that the Lakers wouldn't have considered that JJ for Pau swap . . . especially since his old coach would probably pee on himself if he thought he could re-unite JJ and Nash, play them with Kobe and Nash, and have that beloved small lineup that he loves.

I know . . too far fetched huh? Not as far fetched as the pipe dream of getting Howard and Paul in a Hawks uniform.

3) I'm not moving anything when it comes to Zaza and Kyle. Their contracts will be "small" when it comes to what we'd have to pay for Jefferson and Iggy, even if we did overpay Zaza and Kyle. And about 1/2 of this fan base would rather roll with them, than to bring in two very good players like Jefferson and Iggy, and act like whatever weaknesses they have as players, far outweigh their strengths.

Jefferson is a top 25 - 30 player in the league, and Iguodala is one of the most versatile and probably the premiere perimeter defender in the league.

In a conference in which we need post scoring to put pressure on Hibbert, Lopez, and Noah . . . and someone to slow down the likes of Lebron, Carmelo, George, and even Derrick Rose . . . I have no problem rolling with Jefferson and Iggy, and team them up with Horford, for the next 3 years or so.

If you want to tank, definitely bring back Kyle and Zaza.

Edited June 24, 2013 by northcyde

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Gerald Green is an excellent tanking starting SF.

All-Tank team

PG - DJ Augustin

G - Kyle Korver

F - Gerald Green

PF - Tyrus Thomas ( Horford traded to Charlotte for him and a draft pick )

C - Zaza Pachulia

There you go. There's your tank squad right there. We'd still have everyone's favorite Hawks on the team, along with guys who can't defend, and a young exciting dunker.

[NBASupes]

All-Tank team

PG - DJ Augustin

G - Kyle Korver

F - Gerald Green

PF - Tyrus Thomas ( Horford traded to Charlotte for him and a draft pick )

C - Zaza Pachulia

There you go. There's your tank squad right there. We'd still have everyone's favorite Hawks on the team, along with guys who can't defend, and a young exciting dunker.

That tank team would be greatly under the cap floor as well but would be hard as hell to improve that team in the long run. We would be tanking forever.

I can see Charlotte letting Tyrus out of his deal when they need his salary to tank as well.

I can't see Korver coming back if we are tanking and if we fail to get CP3/D12.

Our tank team should be more like:

Mack

Jenkins

Green

Horf

Kwame Brown

That should be a super tank squad. We got to have Al in there to at least be able to look like we are playing some type of hoops and it's not good to bare the cup fully bare. Even OKC had some decent players around Westy and Durant.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Leadership

[NBASupes]

2014 draft targets if we tank:

Wiggins

Parker

Marcus Smart

Cauley Stein

Andrew Harrison

Mario Hezonja

Mitch McGary

2015 draft targets if we tank:

Jahlil Okafor ***** The best center prospect since Oden

Dante Exum

Karl Towns

Emmanuel Mudiay

Tyus Jones

Joel Embiid