Merged: Discussion on Tanking

[AHF]

Leaving Dwight and Monta Ellis alone to enjoy their visions of Dwight rebounding Monta's many careens of the rim...

[NBASupes]

CP3/Dwight/Horf>>>>>>Tank>>>>>>>>Stay in place

Now let's get this thread started.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Leadership

[Buzzard]

Leaving Dwight and Monta Ellis alone to enjoy their visions of Dwight rebounding Monta's many careens of the rim...

When you are out of the playoffs with no chance you tank. But having that mentality before the season even starts is for losers. Its bad PR locally and nationally. I think we have garnered enough of that and its time to go positive this off season.

[AHF]

When you are out of the playoffs with no chance you tank. But having that mentality before the season even starts is for losers. Its bad PR locally and nationally. I think we have garnered enough of that and its time to go positive this off season.

I want Dwight and Paul which wouldn't just be positive but it would be revolutionary for this team.

The next question is what do we do if we strike out on both of them. I am not up for Jefferson + Tyreke. I could be convinced to go after Pek and hold onto some flexibility but trying to repeat the recent positives of the Atlanta Hawks doesn't do much for me.

Edited June 18, 2013 by AHF

[NBASupes]

I want Dwight and Paul which wouldn't just be positive but it would be revolutionary for this team.

The next question is what do we do if we strike out on both of them. I am not up for Jefferson + Tyreke. I could be convinced to go after Pek and hold onto some flexibility but trying to repeat the recent positives of the Atlanta Hawks doesn't do much for me.

While this wouldn't win a title. Pek, trading for Nash for capspace, and signing a SF

Nash

Korver

SF

Horford

Pek

Now this would be maxed out in the 2nd round but I can enjoy watching this team. Any team where Jeff is the PG and Al is suppose to be the #1 option is a fail and not worth my time. Teague can't create offense for others and Al struggles at creating his. I'll pass even though as a combination, they will win a good number of games like 34-44.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Leadership

[Buzzard]

I want Dwight and Paul which wouldn't just be positive but it would be revolutionary for this team.

The next question is what do we do if we strike out on both of them. I am not up for Jefferson + Tyreke. I could be convinced to go after Pek and hold onto some flexibility but trying to repeat the recent positives of the Atlanta Hawks doesn't do much for me.

Losing Josh alone keeps us in a cap flexible mode even if we sign one or two middle ground type players like Jefferson, Tyreke, Millsap, Evans, Iggy, You can't discount our two picks and yes I think we have to count on them to contribute.

You don't trash the team when we have Horford, Teague, and two first round picks from jump street.

[AHF]

Losing Josh alone keeps us in a cap flexible mode even if we sign one or two middle ground type players like Jefferson, Tyreke, Millsap, Evans, Iggy, You can't discount our two picks and yes I think we have to count on them to contribute.

You don't trash the team when we have Horford, Teague, and two first round picks from jump street.

If we sign Al Jefferson to a deal for $10M, $11M and $12M and Tyreke Evans to a deal for $9M, $9.5M, and $10M, then we are looking at about $10M in cap room next offseason:

Al Horford $12,000,000

Lou Williams $5,450,000

John Jenkins $1,312,920

Pick #17 $1,406,163.60

Pick #18 $1,335,865.85

Roster Charge $490,180

Al Jefferson $11,000,000

Tyreke Evans $9,500,000

Roster Charge $490,180

Roster Charge $490,180

Roster Charge $490,180

Roster Charge $490,180

Roster Charge $490,180

Total Salaries & Charges $44,946,029

Edited June 18, 2013 by AHF

[Wretch]

I'm sorry I missed so much of this discussion.

So let me say this first...you are not going to win without exceptional talent. It doesn't matter how well coached or how well put together your team is or how disciplined they are. You're going to face teams with phenomenal talent and unless you have a counter to that, you're pretty much screwed. Sounds simple enough, but people just fail to make the connection here.

How many times do we need to experience being irrelevant? If you put an underpowered team on the court, you are going to lose in the 1st or 2nd round of the playoffs and you will end up with a late 1st round pick. You will eventually eat up your cap space to fine tune said underpowered team and you will be stuck with late 1st round picks for 3-5 years.

At which point you do what? If you are allergic to the draft like some, then you...Babcock it. You build yet another underpowered team and repeat the same cycle for another 3-5 years...and then what? Hope and pray that sometime in there, one of the REAL talents looks at us and says, "Hmmm...that's a great situation. Let me sign with them!" or "Hmmm...I really want to lead that team, let me demand a trade there!" No. The real talent is going to look at winning situations that have special talent already in place - and that is where they are going. Because they want to WIN.

Meanwhile, the nickel and dime players (Dalembert, Perkins, Rick Fox, etc.) that we drool over...the guys we feel would "complete" our 3rd tier team, take less money to follow these players to the big games. How many times do we have to see this to know how it turns out?

Seriously...I have seen it ENOUGH times already.

I don't like to use the word "tank." The idea that you will get the top pick and draft Hakeem and win a championship is ridiculous and not a valid strategy. No rational basketball mind would argue otherwise. However, when you are not the favorite destination for TOP TIER free agents, when you are not a contender, and when you are not a RISING young team...then your best bet is to REBUILD.

Unfortunately, that involves not being very good. This will always be the case in the NBA for two reasons:

A) The individual player affects the game SO much more in basketball than any other sport. When you have just one exceptional player, you are already one step ahead of the team that does not. It doesn't guarantee you a win or a championship, but I'd rather be the team WITH that player and be able to build around him than be the team (that we have BEEN) without him.

B) Those special players are found pretty much NOWHERE but at the top of the draft, around picks 1 through 10 with a few gems *MAYBE* slipping down to around 14. Your odds of finding a franchise player the quality of Tony Parker or Clyde Drexler or even a Michael Redd, late 1st or 2nd round, are even more laughable than trying to "tank" to get the top pick and land the next Magic Johnson.

So...if we're not signing the big ticket free agents, then my preference is to RE-BUILD from the ground up. I had much more fun during those terrible seasons watching the young Hawks grow and much more hope seeing them mature than I did the last 4 years of watching solid, "winning" basketball - and knowing the outcome.

[TheFuzz]

My issue with teams that tank is they end up just not having a lot of talent on their team and get in a neverending rut of sucking.

If we miss out on Howard/CP3, I think it's time to go into talent acquisition mode. Don't sign anyone to a bad contract, no flawed players. None of the Al Jefferson crap, that'll turn us into a first round exit year after year. Pick up as many assets as we can, bring in young talent and players on good contracts. If we miss the playoffs, that's fine. Don't panic.

If it becomes clear we won't get CP3/Howard, then jump all over Houston's assets. Look at picking up that #13 pick from Dallas by helping relieve them of some salary. With our cap, we should be buyer's in the trade market. Stockpile as many assets as we can while maintaining as much cap as we can in the hope we can trade for, sign or draft a stud.

Cleveland, Orlando, Denver, Houston and Golden State have bright futures. Sacramento, Toronto and Charlotte do not.

[GameTime]

If we sign Al Jefferson to a deal for $10M, $11M and $12M and Tyreke Evans to a deal for $9M, $9.5M, and $10M, then we are looking at about $10M in cap room next offseason:

Al Horford $12,000,000

Lou Williams $5,450,000

John Jenkins $1,312,920

Pick #17 $1,406,163.60

Pick #18 $1,335,865.85

Roster Charge $490,180

Al Jefferson $11,000,000

Tyreke Evans $9,500,000

Roster Charge $490,180

Roster Charge $490,180

Roster Charge $490,180

Roster Charge $490,180

Roster Charge $490,180

Total Salaries & Charges $44,946,029

And this is not even factoring another 7-8 mil because Buzz wants Teague back.

[Buzzard]

If we sign Al Jefferson to a deal for $10M, $11M and $12M and Tyreke Evans to a deal for $9M, $9.5M, and $10M, then we are looking at about $10M in cap room next offseason:

Al Horford $12,000,000

Lou Williams $5,450,000

John Jenkins $1,312,920

Pick #17 $1,406,163.60

Pick #18 $1,335,865.85

Roster Charge $490,180

Al Jefferson $11,000,000

Tyreke Evans $9,500,000

Roster Charge $490,180

Roster Charge $490,180

Roster Charge $490,180

Roster Charge $490,180

Roster Charge $490,180

Total Salaries & Charges $44,946,029

And that means we have flexibility to take on cap in a trade. Not to mention valuable locked up players in Al, Al, Teague, Lou, and Tyreke. plus who we draft with our two 1st round picks.

In order to make big moves you need a few things but it all comes down to one thing, assets that are valuable. Cap space, young players, and decent players are a hell of a combination

[Diesel]

Dwight or CP3 should always be the goal. If that fails...

Tank. I am a firm believer when you have no exciting product, poor attendances because people aren't wasting their money on terrible basketball, and you aren't built correctly because you lack the talent around your franchise player. Just blow it up. We have excellent management and not a clown like BK. I have faith in rebuilding with Ferry which I never had with BK.

Tanking would alienate the guys that are here and the free agents that we seek. IF we're going to tank, we have to trade Horf to a better situation and get a team filled with guys trying to make their mark in the league. Guys that the league has forgotten. Morever, I don't think our fanbase can take a tank.

[Buzzard]

Tanking would alienate the guys that are here and the free agents that we seek. IF we're going to tank, we have to trade Horf to a better situation and get a team filled with guys trying to make their mark in the league. Guys that the league has forgotten. Morever, I don't think our fanbase can take a tank.

Its already bad enough without adding to the misery of once again being one of the ten worse teams in the NBA.

[GameTime]

Tanking is such a strong word. Playing our young guys sounds better. We obviously know how Miami obtained their Big 3 (Free Agency) and how San Antonio (Tank for Duncan and draft well) and LA (Masterful trades and FA acquisitions). Let us look at the Boston Big 3 beginning: 1. In June they traded the #5 pick (Jeff Green) plus Delonte West and Wally Szczerbiak in exchange for Ray Allen and the 35th pick.

2. On July 31st, Boston sent the Minnesota Timberwolves forwards Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes and Gerald Green, guard Sebastian Telfair and center Theo Ratliff, two first-round draft picks and cash considerations.

Boston's strategy was simple; accumulate future draft picks and young talent. Play the young talent in order to increase their value and have enough cap space to be ready for any potential blockbuster deal.

[Buzzard]

Tanking is such a strong word. Playing our young guys sounds better. We obviously know how Miami obtained their Big 3 (Free Agency) and how San Antonio (Tank for Duncan and draft well) and LA (Masterful trades and FA acquisitions). Let us look at the Boston Big 3 beginning: 1. In June they traded the #5 pick (Jeff Green) plus Delonte West and Wally Szczerbiak in exchange for Ray Allen and the 35th pick.

2. On July 31st, Boston sent the Minnesota Timberwolves forwards Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes and Gerald Green, guard Sebastian Telfair and center Theo Ratliff, two first-round draft picks and cash considerations.

Boston's strategy was simple; accumulate future draft picks and young talent. Play the young talent in order to increase their value and have enough cap space to be ready for any potential blockbuster deal.

You really can't call what San Anotnio did tanking. They lost David Robinson and Sean Elliot that season. That would be the equivalent to the Bulls losing Jordan and Pippen.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Buzzard

[GameTime]

You really can't call what San Anotnio did tanking. They lost David Robinson and Sean Elliot that season. That would be the equivalent to the Bulls losing Jordan and Pippen.

They certainly didn't rush him back, but i'll give you that . Spurs got lucky.

[Buzzard]

They certainly didn't rush him back, but i'll give you that . Spurs got lucky.

They got real lucky. Lost their two leading scorers from the previous season but ended up with Duncan. They fired their head coach early into the next season and made Pop head coach. He was their GM.

[Diesel]

Its already bad enough without adding to the misery of once again being one of the ten worse teams in the NBA.

Obvioisly many people fail to remember when we failed to win 20 games. The effect on the franchise is huge...and then to come away with Marvin... SUCKS.

[Guest]

13 wins - nothing pleasing in watching that. Might as well forfeit the season and not play any games.

Edited June 19, 2013 by JayBirdHawk

[Guest]

You really can't call what San Anotnio did tanking. They lost David Robinson and Sean Elliot that season. That would be the equivalent to the Bulls losing Jordan and Pippen.

And people forget, that Boston was actually the worse team trying hard to tank and didn't end up with the #1 pick. I remembered the shocked looked on Celts fans faces - I laughed so hard.