Not a good feeling

[Plainview1981]

Who is to say that our ceiling is the second round? And who to say that our ceiling 5 years after tanking would be higher?

I've seen how Mookie/Smitty/Christian/Deke ended up... I saw how SAR/Big Dog/JT and Theo ended up... And I saw how Bibby/Joe/Josh and Al ended up. We just saw this 3 or 4 borderline all star thing fail three times in a row. There is no reason to believe it will be different next time. But seeing as how no star wants to play here, now people are just going to accept this strategy as a way to go again.

If healthy, it is the Bulls that is the 2nd best team in the conference. Not Indiana. Danny Granger or no Danny Granger.

Oh, and Indy has a legit center and we don't. For the people that forget that little detail.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Hotlanta1981

[TheFuzz]

I've seen how Mookie/Smitty/Christian/Deke ended up... I saw how SAR/Big Dog/JT and Theo ended up... And I saw how Bibby/Joe/Josh and Al ended up. We just saw this 3 or 4 borderline all star thing fail three times in a row. There is no reason to believe it will be different next time. But seeing as how no star wants to play here, now people are just going to accept this strategy as a way to go again.

If healthy, it is the Bulls that is the 2nd best team in the conference. Not Indiana. Danny Granger or no Danny Granger.

Oh, and Indy has a legit center and we don't. For the people that forget that little detail.

I hear that. The only thing is we ended up where we are through tanking already. We messed up multiple draft picks in a row, but who's to say we wouldn't mess it up again. That's the worry if we tank again. Horford is arguably a top 5 PF going forward considering his age. The chances of us getting another Horford-level player aren't THAT great. The chances of another superstar ain't great either.

[Dragitoff]

I think it's a bit unfair to say the Mookie/Smitty/Christian/Deke team didn't work. They were some great squads and had to face the buzzsaw that was the Chicago Bulls in the playoffs. I think the mighty, might Heat would get a "Heat Check" against those Bulls squads.

[Plainview1981]

I hear that. The only thing is we ended up where we are through tanking already. We messed up multiple draft picks in a row, but who's to say we wouldn't mess it up again. That's the worry if we tank again. Horford is arguably a top 5 PF going forward considering his age. The chances of us getting another Horford-level player aren't THAT great. The chances of another superstar ain't great either.

We have to hope Danny is not the dumb asshole that Billy was.

[Plainview1981]

I think it's a bit unfair to say the Mookie/Smitty/Christian/Deke team didn't work. They were some great squads and had to face the buzzsaw that was the Chicago Bulls in the playoffs. I think the mighty, might Heat would get a "Heat Check" against those Bulls squads.

The only thing those teams did was beat a weak Detroit team with Hill and an aging Joe Dumars.

[Peoriabird]

I've seen how Mookie/Smitty/Christian/Deke ended up... I saw how SAR/Big Dog/JT and Theo ended up... And I saw how Bibby/Joe/Josh and Al ended up. We just saw this 3 or 4 borderline all star thing fail three times in a row. There is no reason to believe it will be different next time. But seeing as how no star wants to play here, now people are just going to accept this strategy as a way to go again.

If healthy, it is the Bulls that is the 2nd best team in the conference. Not Indiana. Danny Granger or no Danny Granger.

Oh, and Indy has a legit center and we don't. For the people that forget that little detail.

Weren't Smitty, Deke, and Christan top 5 picks?

Weren't Sar and Big Dog top 3 picks?

Weren't Bibby and Al top 3 picks?

Sounds like trading assess to get top 5 pick talent me! So what's your point???

Edited June 20, 2013 by Peoriabird

[AHF]

Weren't Smitty, Deke, and Christan top 5 picks?

Weren't Sar and Big Dog top 3 picks?

Weren't Bibby and Al top 3 picks?

Sounds like trading assess to get top 5 pick talent me! So what's your point???

You aren't trading for picks. Danny Ferry was a #1 pick but if you trade for him you aren't getting the young talent to develop and enjoy on cheap rookie contracts. There is a big difference in acquiring Mike Bibby when we did and when the Sacramento Kings drafted him.

[AHF]

I think it's a bit unfair to say the Mookie/Smitty/Christian/Deke team didn't work. They were some great squads and had to face the buzzsaw that was the Chicago Bulls in the playoffs. I think the mighty, might Heat would get a "Heat Check" against those Bulls squads.

That doesn't explain why they never reached the ECF. They didn't win a lot in the playoffs and only once earned a top seed (which they squandered) so it is hard to say we deserved anything better than the 1st and 2nd round exits particularly since we couldn't even win 3 games in the 2nd round a single time:

1993 - 7th seed - Lost 3-0 against the Bulls (didn't earn a better seed)

1994 - 1st seed - Lost 4-2 against the Pacers (opposite side of the bracket from CHI)

1995 - 7th seed - Lost 3-0 against the Pacers (opposite side from CHI)

1996 - 6th seed - Lost 4-1 against the Magic (opposite side from CHI)

1997 - 4th seed - Lost 4-1 against the Bulls (didn't earn a better seed to avoid)

1998 - 5th seed - Lost 3-1 to the Hornets (would have faced CHI)

1999 - 4th seed - Lost 4-0 to the Knicks (no CHI in playoffs)

[Plainview1981]

Weren't Smitty, Deke, and Christan top 5 picks?

Weren't Sar and Big Dog top 3 picks?

Weren't Bibby and Al top 3 picks?

Sounds like trading assess to get top 5 pick talent me! So what's your point???

None of those guys were superstars when we got them.

Right now, this team has Al, Josh, Teague and two mid first round picks. That's all. And Josh doesn't even seem to have any or much trade value.

We could have had our guy last a handful of years ago. For some reason Billy choose a college backup with with a top pick at a position that we already had filled.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Hotlanta1981

[Plainview1981]

I'd rather try the draft instead of signing Tyreke Evans (Who has had diminishing results since his rookie year) and a no defense playing slob like Al Jefferson.

[Peoriabird]

I'd rather try the draft instead of signing Tyreke Evans (Who has had diminishing results since his rookie year) and a no defense playing slob like Al Jefferson.

what difference does it make whether you get the 4th pick and draft Tyreke Evans as oppose to someone else drafting him and you sign him? In other words, You can tank and end up with Evan and be happy but if someone else drafts him and you sign him after his rookie contract you are not happy...What gives???

[AHF]

what difference does it make whether you get the 4th pick and draft Tyreke Evans as oppose to someone else drafting him and you sign him? In other words, You can tank and end up with Evan and be happy but if someone else drafts him and you sign him after his rookie contract you are not happy...What gives???

He wants someone better than Evans now that Evans is expensive and showing regression in his game (according to Hotlanta). My guess is that he would also say that if Evans was worth keeping that the Kings would be keeping him rather than letting him go without a fight and we would want to draft someone worth resigning.

[Peoriabird]

But the whole argument is to get to the lottery and select high...All these players to be acquired are high draft picks...Evans was the 4th pick in the draft where as Tony Parker, Lenard and Ginobili were non lottery pick and are better players. So where is the argument for tanking!

[AHF]

But the whole argument is to get to the lottery and select high...All these players to be acquired are high draft picks...Evans was the 4th pick in the draft where as Tony Parker, Lenard and Ginobili were non lottery pick and are better players. So where is the argument for tanking!

Are you deliberating trying to misconstrue the argument? The point is to land a superstar engine like Duncan, Wade, Shaq, Durant, Lebron, MJ, Hakeem, etc.

Tyreke Evans is not that player. If he was that player, then the Kings would not let him go.

From a team building perspective, there are no more valuable assets than superstars and stud rookies. Paying Tyreke Evans $10M to score like he does isn't nearly as attractive as the next Dwayne Wade playing for $4M and under team control for the next 5+ years or a Lebron James at $18M when his market value is $30M+.

I am sure you understand this and are pulling my leg here even if you think first round exits are the greatest thing since sliced bread.

[Dejay]

All of this arguing can be traced to the fact that our 'resident basketball expert' dropped the ball twice by 1) allowing a motley crew of free agents to play out the string and screw them out of the Dwight Howard sweepstakes and 2) passing over Chris Paul and Deron Williams for a college backup on the basis of length and upside. We are simply paying back the student loan from having a doofus run the show when they had a chance to build something special and blew it. The reason why Heat fans are celebrating their third world title while we are praying for an ECF appearance in our lifetime is because they have had competency at the top while we've had chaos with a bunch of jabrones who never built a winner in their lives. Just to think that we were this close to bringing in Jerry West to run things, only to end up with Bil..I can't even say his name right now. I'm THAT pissed off.So sad. We are debating whether or not to tank for the next two years while teams like the Heat, Bulls, Pacers, et al reload with REAL players. I guess I'm a gluten for punishment because I keep coming back for more...

[Plainview1981]

Are you deliberating trying to misconstrue the argument? The point is to land a superstar engine like Duncan, Wade, Shaq, Durant, Lebron, MJ, Hakeem, etc.

Tyreke Evans is not that player. If he was that player, then the Kings would not let him go.

From a team building perspective, there are no more valuable assets than superstars and stud rookies. Paying Tyreke Evans $10M to score like he does isn't nearly as attractive as the next Dwayne Wade playing for $4M and under team control for the next 5+ years or a Lebron James at $18M when his market value is $30M+.

I am sure you understand this and are pulling my leg here even if you think first round exits are the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Evans is a productive player, but stat wise he has regressed since his rookie year. His minutes are being reduced also. The guy is only 23 years old, but he has been in the league about 4 seasons now and he appears to be going in the opposite direction. Maybe someone that has watched a lot of the Kings can explain why. But I think its something to be concerned about if you're looking to sign him to big bucks.

I'd rather go for the draft than pay guys like Evans and Al Jefferson 10-15 million each on long term contracts. I'm not a big fan of a Jefferson/Al combo. That's a mediocre defensive front court.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Hotlanta1981

[Wretch]

The championship or bust mentality is nuts, especially when you've never even been to a Conference Final. The funny thing is that all of these people have so much confidence that Ferry can build a contender here, but don't trust that he can do it without going into the Lottery. They don't trust him to build that contender through free agency or via trades. They want him to do with with young talent and draft picks.

If that's the case, we need to trade Al Horford for a high draft pick immediately after we fail to get Howard and Paul. Go ahead and call up Cleveland, Orlando, and Washington and tell them that they can have Al Horford in exchange for their draft pick this year and some of their young talent and/or journeyman players

Orlando may not do it, but I'm sure we could get the attention of a team like Cleveland, if we gave them the prospect of adding an All-Star PF in exchange for the #1 pick, Tristian Thompson ( drafted 4th in 2011 ), Wayne Ellington ( drafted 28th in 2009 ), and their 2nd round pick in 2013 ( #31 pick ).

The real sad thing is that 90% of these people who wouldn't mind going this route, will never spend a DIME at Philips Arena to see a team that they KNOW is going to lose 70% of the time at home. They say they have a better time rooting for a bad team that has the hope to be good ( because that's the only type of hope you can have ), than to root for a team that is good, but not good enough to beat the top teams in the conference, which limits their championship potential.

There's no such thing as "halfway tanking". If you're going to tank, you may as well go all the way.

Just support the team at the arena, when we're bad.

Well first of all, I have been supporting this team since 1985...and I don't even LIVE in Atlanta; I'm 100+ miles south. I get offered free tickets from my sister's job and I DON'T TAKE THEM. Why? Because I BUY them. And I don't buy the tickets to see the "popular" bandwagon teams full of stars, I buy tickets vs. the WORST and unmarketable teams...because I'm a true fan. I watch almost every game and support the team's sponsors. You see that little red title under my avatar? I support an unofficial Hawks FANSITE, don't pull a stat out of the air and apply it across the board. I was here when we were winning very few games...and the people on this site were still going to games.

Secondly...championship or bust mentality? I'm gonna go ahead and make a stand. I've seen that logic/line of reasoning pop up more than once...people talking about "unrealistic" expectations and whatnot. There is NO point to sports but to WIN.

Win, win, win... In that, there are no unrealistic expectations. Championship or bust? You're damn right! I don't give a shit about a shiny medal for participation. I want to watch tears coming down LeBron's face while Horford is standing mid-court with his ECF's championship hat on...getting ready for prime time games that cancel regularly scheduled programs.

DAMN right I want a championship and you're damn straight it's championship or bust! :D Why the hell not? What the hell else am I watching this game for?

[AHF]

I will take a less extreme view on this and say that I want a contender. I want a team that is going to be in the conference finals 5 or 6 times before their run is done and get some shots at the finals and a championship.

If they are the Utah Jazz of the 90's and come up short despite this, I can live with that. If they come up short like the OKC Thunder, I can live with that.

I am tired, however, of living with teams that are cannon fodder for the playoffs. We haven't had a legit contender in Atlanta -- ever. We had one season where our regular season suggested we were a contender and then we traded Nique for Manning in the middle of that season and watched the Hawks get their butts kicked in 6 games with losses by 11, 20, 16, and 18 points in....wait for it...the second round.

Getting bounced in the first and second round isn't satisfying but what makes it even harder is knowing for a fact the team is getting bounced in the first or second round before the season starts. Aren't you tired of knowing we aren't contenders before the season starts?

I want a legit contender and we need a superstar to get there. Sign Dwight and Paul if we can. Try to trade Josh Smith for Kevin Durant. Go into the draft if you can't land him by trade or FA. Just get him.

Edited June 21, 2013 by AHF

[Guest]

I will take a less extreme view on this and say that I want a contender. I want a team that is going to be in the conference finals 5 or 6 times before their run is done and get some shots at the finals and a championship. If they are the Utah Jazz of the 90's and come up short despite this, I can live with that. If they come up short like the OKC Thunder, I can live with that. I am tired, however, of living with teams that are cannon fodder for the playoffs. We haven't had a legit contender in Atlanta -- ever. We had one season where our regular season suggested we were a contender and then we traded Nique for Manning in the middle of that season and watched the Hawks get their butts kicked in 6 games with losses by 11, 20, 16, and 18 points in....wait for it...the second round. Getting bounced in the first and second round isn't satisfying but what makes it even harder is knowing for a fact the team is getting bounced in the first or second round before the season starts. Aren't you tired of knowing we aren't contenders before the season starts? I want a legit contender and we need a superstar to get there. Sign Dwight and Paul if we can. Try to trade Josh Smith for Kevin Durant. Go into the draft if you can't land him by trade or FA. Just get him.

I agree, I want a team that is in the discussion more years than not for possibly a championship run. Knowing we have no chance to be even in the discussion is what I hate most. The ceiling cannot be 2nd round and done. Been there, done that.You lost me at trading Josh for Durant....lol.

[Buzzard]

If we don't get D12 or CP3, we need to put ourselves in a situation similar to the Nets when they landed Deron or NY when they landed Melo. What does that entail? Decent Vets, Decent young prospects, and a pick or two .And with the new CBA we have to be careful with our cap for multiple reasons.

If we lose on D12, CP3, and keep adding young assets, only good things can happen. You do not have to be in the lottery to hit home runs or have good runs in the draft. But we must be prepared to succeed.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Buzzard