Not a good feeling

[AHF]

I agree, I want a team that is in the discussion more years than not for possibly a championship run. Knowing we have no chance to be even in the discussion is what I hate most. The ceiling cannot be 2nd round and done. Been there, done that.You lost me at trading Josh for Durant....lol.

I said that more to emphasize that you don't acquire your engine by trading the kind of assets that we have so a "hold and trade" strategy seems like the least likely to end up with a contender.

[Peoriabird]

I just don't get it...It seem as though some poster are convinced that if we sign non super stars, our fate is sealed. So if we sign say a Tyreke Evans a) He will continue to get worse and B) we won't be able to trade him or use him to acquire other assets if he doesn't fit our system. So therefore we must take a chance on an unknown commodity like a draft pick to maintain our fan base. News Flash...Draft pick don't live up to expectations and y'all are counting on finding a once in 10 year player like Lebron to somehow be available at the spot we are drafting at a time when we are in the lottery....Y'all nuts! In fact Cleveland actually drafted Lebron and have nothing to show for it. And for those of you that turn your noses up at the San Antonio Spurs of the world whose teams have been good over the past 6 years but not championship grade, y'all need to stop following sports! Because even though the Falcons have not won Jack, I still enjoy watching that team every Sunday! That is what real fans do and Atlanta appears to have a shortage of those kind of people and the entire country knows it.

[AHF]

If we don't get D12 or CP3, we need to put ourselves in a situation similar to the Nets when they landed Deron or NY when they landed Melo. What does that entail? Decent Vets, Decent young prospects, and a pick or two .And with the new CBA we have to be careful with our cap for multiple reasons.

If we lose on D12, CP3, and keep adding young assets, only good things can happen. You do not have to be in the lottery to hit home runs or have good runs in the draft. But we must be prepared to succeed.

The biggest assets traded in those deals were: Gallinari for NY (#6 overall pick) and Favores for NJ (#3 overall pick). Having those young lottery picks while they are on rookie deals is enticing.

[AHF]

And for those of you that turn your noses up at the San Antonio Spurs of the world whose teams have been good over the past 6 years but not championship grade, y'all need to stop following sports!

No one is turning their noses up at the Spurs. They have a superstar engine. They repeatedly make the conference finals. They are true contenders every year.

It is the opposite - the "crazy" posters who want to sign Howard/Paul and goto the draft if that fails want exactly what they have. The lynchpin for everything they have done was #1 pick Tim Duncan.

Posts like this are really making me think you are satirizing this debate.

[Peoriabird]

No one is turning their noses up at the Spurs. They have a superstar engine. They repeatedly make the conference finals. They are true contenders every year.

It is the opposite - the "crazy" posters who want to sign Howard/Paul and goto the draft if that fails want exactly what they have. The lynchpin for everything they have done was #1 pick Tim Duncan.

Posts like this are really making me think you are satirizing this debate.

We are not getting the #1 pick over all! We never have and never will! WTF can't you understand about this 1st of all! Secondly even if we did, there is no F'ing guarantee that Lebron or Duncan will be there. Thirdly, there are teams that win a lot of games without this so called superstar number one pick in the the draft. Some team acquire them like the Lakers and Celtics. And Fourthly, over the past 25 years, there has been only 1 number 1 pick in the draft to win a championship for the team that drafted him and that was Tim Duncan. So your argument doesn't make any D-mn sense!

[Plainview1981]

I will take a less extreme view on this and say that I want a contender. I want a team that is going to be in the conference finals 5 or 6 times before their run is done and get some shots at the finals and a championship.

If they are the Utah Jazz of the 90's and come up short despite this, I can live with that. If they come up short like the OKC Thunder, I can live with that.

I am tired, however, of living with teams that are cannon fodder for the playoffs. We haven't had a legit contender in Atlanta -- ever. We had one season where our regular season suggested we were a contender and then we traded Nique for Manning in the middle of that season and watched the Hawks get their butts kicked in 6 games with losses by 11, 20, 16, and 18 points in....wait for it...the second round.

Getting bounced in the first and second round isn't satisfying but what makes it even harder is knowing for a fact the team is getting bounced in the first or second round before the season starts. Aren't you tired of knowing we aren't contenders before the season starts?

I want a legit contender and we need a superstar to get there. Sign Dwight and Paul if we can. Try to trade Josh Smith for Kevin Durant. Go into the draft if you can't land him by trade or FA. Just get him.

This sums it up. It's tough to say "I expect a championship and nothing else" because so few teams actually win one. But I want the franchise to show ambition.

[Plainview1981]

I just don't get it...It seem as though some poster are convinced that if we sign non super stars, our fate is sealed. So if we sign say a Tyreke Evans a) He will continue to get worse and B) we won't be able to trade him or use him to acquire other assets if he doesn't fit our system. So therefore we must take a chance on an unknown commodity like a draft pick to maintain our fan base. News Flash...Draft pick don't live up to expectations and y'all are counting on finding a once in 10 year player like Lebron to somehow be available at the spot we are drafting at a time when we are in the lottery....Y'all nuts! In fact Cleveland actually drafted Lebron and have nothing to show for it. And for those of you that turn your noses up at the San Antonio Spurs of the world whose teams have been good over the past 6 years but not championship grade, y'all need to stop following sports! Because even though the Falcons have not won Jack, I still enjoy watching that team every Sunday! That is what real fans do and Atlanta appears to have a shortage of those kind of people and the entire country knows it.

Some old crap about "being a true fan".

A fan owes a franchise nothing until they give them something in return. Just because I might be a fan of a certain actor or something, that doesn't mean I have pay to see everything they do or back every choice they make.

[NBASupes]

If we don't get D12 or CP3, we need to put ourselves in a situation similar to the Nets when they landed Deron or NY when they landed Melo. What does that entail? Decent Vets, Decent young prospects, and a pick or two .And with the new CBA we have to be careful with our cap for multiple reasons.

If we lose on D12, CP3, and keep adding young assets, only good things can happen. You do not have to be in the lottery to hit home runs or have good runs in the draft. But we must be prepared to succeed.

They had a two two pick in Favors they traded who had skyhigh potential. We don't have a piece like that and teams who have stars right now aren't willing to trade them. Honestly, we need CP3 and D12.

[NBASupes]

Well first of all, I have been supporting this team since 1985...and I don't even LIVE in Atlanta; I'm 100+ miles south. I get offered free tickets from my sister's job and I DON'T TAKE THEM. Why? Because I BUY them. And I don't buy the tickets to see the "popular" bandwagon teams full of stars, I buy tickets vs. the WORST and unmarketable teams...because I'm a true fan. I watch almost every game and support the team's sponsors. You see that little red title under my avatar? I support an unofficial Hawks FANSITE, don't pull a stat out of the air and apply it across the board. I was here when we were winning very few games...and the people on this site were still going to games.

Secondly...championship or bust mentality? I'm gonna go ahead and make a stand. I've seen that logic/line of reasoning pop up more than once...people talking about "unrealistic" expectations and whatnot. There is NO point to sports but to WIN.

Win, win, win... In that, there are no unrealistic expectations. Championship or bust? You're damn right! I don't give a shit about a shiny medal for participation. I want to watch tears coming down LeBron's face while Horford is standing mid-court with his ECF's championship hat on...getting ready for prime time games that cancel regularly scheduled programs.

DAMN right I want a championship and you're damn straight it's championship or bust! Why the hell not? What the hell else am I watching this game for?

In the NBA, bust is better than being in the middle for a NBA team. This isn't like players where it's better to get a decent player like J.J. Redick than a bust like Patrick O'Bryant.

[Buzzard]

The biggest assets traded in those deals were: Gallinari for NY (#6 overall pick) and Favores for NJ (#3 overall pick). Having those young lottery picks while they are on rookie deals is enticing.

Yes they are/were decent contracts. Gallanari is making 42 million for four remaining years now. I think it has just as much to do with Gallinari's production as it does where he was drafted. Knicks did not want to part with him. Favors on the other hand was all based on upside. We just need to keep adding valuable assets. Combinations of contract, youth, production are best. But most importantly they must be seen as a positive assets, and some GM may one day drop a Gasol ( prime time version ) , Deron, or Melo on us. Edited June 21, 2013 by Buzzard

[AHF]

We are not getting the #1 pick over all! We never have and never will! WTF can't you understand about this 1st of all! Secondly even if we did, there is no F'ing guarantee that Lebron or Duncan will be there. Thirdly, there are teams that win a lot of games without this so called superstar number one pick in the the draft. Some team acquire them like the Lakers and Celtics. And Fourthly, over the past 25 years, there has been only 1 number 1 pick in the draft to win a championship for the team that drafted him and that was Tim Duncan. So your argument doesn't make any D-mn sense!

Didn't realize we were dealing with draft conspiracy overlay here in a league where teams like Cleveland and Orlando get multiple #1 picks but Atlanta "never will."

I do recognize that Lebron or Duncan aren't guaranteed to be there in a given draft. However, the alternative plan of acquiring people "like the Lakers" (who have had a parade of HOF centers pushing their way onto the roster like Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, etc.) seems a bit sketchy. Finally, you are just flat wrong about there only being one number 1 pick to win a championship for the team that drafted them (cough Hakeem cough) and there have been plenty of examples of studs teams drafted in the lottery who were the keys to their team's success in winning a championship and the question is how to get that person here:

Let's see if we see any trend over the last 25 years since that is your time frame:

Last 25 Years of Finals MVPs Drafted By Their Team In the Lottery

Dwyane Wade #4 2013 Champion; 2012 Champion; 2006 Champion & Finals MVP

Dirk Nowitzki #9 2011 Champion and Finals MVP

Kobe Bryant #13 2000-02 Champion, 2009 & 2010 Champion and Finals MVPs

Paul Pierce #10 2008 Champion & Finals MVP

Tim Duncan #1 1999, 2003, 2005, 2007 Champion & 1999, 2003, 2005 Finals MVP

Michael Jordan #3 1991-93, 1996-98 Champion & Finals MVP

Hakeem Olajuwon #1 1994-95 Champion & Finals MVP

Isiah Thomas #2 1989-90 Champion & 1990 Finals MVP

17 of 25 = 68%

Last 25 Years of Non-Lottery Pick Finals MVPs Drafted By Their Team:

2007 Tony Parker; 1988 Joe Dumars

2 of 25 = 8%

Last 25 Years of Finals MVPs Not Drafted By Their Team:

2012-13 Lebron; 2004 Billups; 2000-02 Shaq

6 of 25 = 24%

So your version of playing the odds is to go with which of these again?

Edited June 21, 2013 by AHF

[Vol4ever]

Memphis made the Western Conference finals this year. I believe we have been around much longer in this league than the Vancouver team that landed in Memphis. I have watched the Grizzlies because I get them along with the Hawks in my viewing area. The Grizz are just a much better coached and better players all around than the Hawks. They have had ownership issues also, but they have overcome that. There is just a giant ugly cloud over the Hawks. Ive been a fan since 1978 and I am really losing interest unless a major deal is done. Dont think I can handle another rebuild. I agree alot with Hotlanta1981 and Wretch.

[Wretch]

I just don't get it...It seem as though some poster are convinced that if we sign non super stars, our fate is sealed. So if we sign say a Tyreke Evans a) He will continue to get worse and B) we won't be able to trade him or use him to acquire other assets if he doesn't fit our system. So therefore we must take a chance on an unknown commodity like a draft pick to maintain our fan base. News Flash...Draft pick don't live up to expectations and y'all are counting on finding a once in 10 year player like Lebron to somehow be available at the spot we are drafting at a time when we are in the lottery....Y'all nuts! In fact Cleveland actually drafted Lebron and have nothing to show for it. And for those of you that turn your noses up at the San Antonio Spurs of the world whose teams have been good over the past 6 years but not championship grade, y'all need to stop following sports! Because even though the Falcons have not won Jack, I still enjoy watching that team every Sunday! That is what real fans do and Atlanta appears to have a shortage of those kind of people and the entire country knows it.

We are not getting the #1 pick over all! We never have and never will! WTF can't you understand about this 1st of all! Secondly even if we did, there is no F'ing guarantee that Lebron or Duncan will be there. Thirdly, there are teams that win a lot of games without this so called superstar number one pick in the the draft. Some team acquire them like the Lakers and Celtics. And Fourthly, over the past 25 years, there has been only 1 number 1 pick in the draft to win a championship for the team that drafted him and that was Tim Duncan. So your argument doesn't make any D-mn sense!

The problem is there is a disconnect here between what we're saying and what you THINK we're saying. Another problem is that in one sentence you're taking the "superstar" label and you're stretching it, in another you're limiting it. On the first problem, not a single one of us draft supporters is saying we need a top 3 pick. We would probably universally agree though, that we want to shoot for the best pick possible while AIMING for the sweet spot in the draft. On the second issue, some players are legendary (MJ, Kobe, Wilt) and some players are just damn good (Wade, Mourning, Webber). I think it's a mistake to try and quantify what a superstar is or even use the label - because it just promotes so many WRONG ideas.

The bottom line is that you need a guy, at least one, who is at the APEX of scoring EFFICIENT baskets. It doesn't have to be LeBron once-in-a-generation James or bust. There are PLENTY of other players you can find and these dudes tend to ATTRACT players like LeBron James.

"What about Al Jefferson!?!?" You're preaching to the choir on this guy, because in one of these threads I did a round-about merry-go-round on the subject of Al Jeff - SUPPORTING him. He is an intriguing prospect, but this is also dude that has been bounced across 3 teams. The guys you build AROUND are typically held onto and guarded like the last drop of ketchup in a room full of people eating french fries.

My eyes tell me Jefferson would work. My gut tells me the SAFE route is to avoid it because we're not going very far with him and we'll end up with another late 1st rounder.

I will take a less extreme view on this and say that I want a contender. I want a team that is going to be in the conference finals 5 or 6 times before their run is done and get some shots at the finals and a championship.

If they are the Utah Jazz of the 90's and come up short despite this, I can live with that. If they come up short like the OKC Thunder, I can live with that.

I am tired, however, of living with teams that are cannon fodder for the playoffs. We haven't had a legit contender in Atlanta -- ever. We had one season where our regular season suggested we were a contender and then we traded Nique for Manning in the middle of that season and watched the Hawks get their butts kicked in 6 games with losses by 11, 20, 16, and 18 points in....wait for it...the second round.

Getting bounced in the first and second round isn't satisfying but what makes it even harder is knowing for a fact the team is getting bounced in the first or second round before the season starts. Aren't you tired of knowing we aren't contenders before the season starts?

I want a legit contender and we need a superstar to get there. Sign Dwight and Paul if we can. Try to trade Josh Smith for Kevin Durant. Go into the draft if you can't land him by trade or FA. Just get him.

I feel the same way. I mean, I want a championship but would I be fine with a thrilling ECF's game 6 or 7. Absolutely. Especially if I know we can at least TWEAK the team and try to crack the finals the next season. I would die to have a team that is in the Championship HUNT. That's really all you can ask for, but the point is that you want a team that COULD make it and maybe COULD win it.

TBH, Miami and San Antonio both won it this year. The final score says one thing, but the Spurs had that thing WON Tuesday night. It'd be heart breaking for sure, but it's all you could really ask for as a fan.

Yes they are/were decent contracts. Gallanari is making 42 million for four remaining years now. I think it has just as much to do with Gallinari's production as it does where he was drafted. Knicks did not want to part with him. Favors on the other hand was all based on upside.

We just need to keep adding valuable assets. Combinations of contract, youth, production are best. But most importantly they must be seen as a positive assets, and some GM may one day drop a Gasol ( prime time version ) , Deron, or Melo on us.

Nobody is going to give us the kind of player that will change our fortune for any number of cast off players that we OVERPAY to sign. Would you give up Al Horford for Monta Ellis, Drew Gooden, and JJ Reddick? Then what good is it going to do us to stockpile a bunch of cast-off talent in order to fish up a franchise quality talent?

And get it right dude. Getting an Al Jefferson or Tyreke Evans is what you're talking about. If you believe this is what it takes to get to the ECF's/Finals, then you can make those kinds of deals all day. The minute you bring up talent that is clearly at least tier above that, then you have to give up something better to get it.

If you don't have a young player with potential (Gallinari, Green, Bledsoe), which you USUALLY fish out of the lottery somewhere, then you're NOT GETTING that ELITE talent back. It's not going to happen.

[Plainview1981]

Memphis made the Western Conference finals this year. I believe we have been around much longer in this league than the Vancouver team that landed in Memphis. I have watched the Grizzlies because I get them along with the Hawks in my viewing area. The Grizz are just a much better coached and better players all around than the Hawks. They have had ownership issues also, but they have overcome that. There is just a giant ugly cloud over the Hawks. Ive been a fan since 1978 and I am really losing interest unless a major deal is done. Dont think I can handle another rebuild. I agree alot with Hotlanta1981 and Wretch.

I think Memphis is a well coached team, but without Gay and Mayo their roster doesn't look like anything special. A pretty good PG, a good PF and a Center that looks more important in a league that doesn't have many. I mean, Conley, Zack and Marc are all good players... Allen is a good role player also... But I think that being well coached and with a solid but more traditional team is what helped them. They aren't more talented than the 2011-2012 Hawks. I don't think. Not without Mayo and Gay... But they don't have the issue of guys playing out of position.

When I say Memphis roster isn't anything special... The lack of an explosive scorer is obvious. The lack of scoring at the guard spots stands out. The biggest issue for the Hawks is a big man in the paint. We haven't had one since Deke... And I don't think Theo counts. He was not a center either.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Hotlanta1981

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Didn't realize we were dealing with draft conspiracy overlay here in a league where teams like Cleveland and Orlando get multiple #1 picks but Atlanta "never will."

I do recognize that Lebron or Duncan aren't guaranteed to be there in a given draft. However, the alternative plan of acquiring people "like the Lakers" (who have had a parade of HOF centers pushing their way onto the roster like Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, etc.) seems a bit sketchy. Finally, you are just flat wrong about there only being one number 1 pick to win a championship for the team that drafted them (cough Hakeem cough) and there have been plenty of examples of studs teams drafted in the lottery who were the keys to their team's success in winning a championship and the question is how to get that person here:

Let's see if we see any trend over the last 25 years since that is your time frame:

Last 25 Years of Finals MVPs Drafted By Their Team In the Lottery

Dwyane Wade #4 2013 Champion; 2012 Champion; 2006 Champion & Finals MVP

Dirk Nowitzki #9 2011 Champion and Finals MVP

Kobe Bryant #13 2000-02 Champion, 2009 & 2010 Champion and Finals MVPs

Paul Pierce #10 2008 Champion & Finals MVP

Tim Duncan #1 1999, 2003, 2005, 2007 Champion & 1999, 2003, 2005 Finals MVP

Michael Jordan #3 1991-93, 1996-98 Champion & Finals MVP

Hakeem Olajuwon #1 1994-95 Champion & Finals MVP

Isiah Thomas #2 1989-90 Champion & 1990 Finals MVP

17 of 25 = 68%

Last 25 Years of Non-Lottery Pick Finals MVPs Drafted By Their Team:

2007 Tony Parker; 1988 Joe Dumars

2 of 25 = 8%

Last 25 Years of Finals MVPs Not Drafted By Their Team:

2012-13 Lebron; 2004 Billups; 2000-02 Shaq

6 of 25 = 24%

So your version of playing the odds is to go with which of these again?

Good post.

LOL @ that 1998 draft

1) Michael Olowokandi - LA Clippers

2) Mike Bibby - Vancouver

3) Raef LaFrentz - Denver

4) Antwan Jamison - Toronto

5) Vince Carter - Golden St ( who then swapped picks )

6) Robert "Tractor" Traylor - Dallas

7) Jason Williams "White Chocolate" - Sacramento

8) Larry Hughes - Philadelphia

9) Dirk Nowitzki - Milwaukee

10 ) Paul Pierce - Boston

11) Bonzi Wells - Detroit

12) Michael Doleac - Orlando

13) Keon Clark - Orlando

Two Hall of Fame players ( Dirk and Pierce ), one guy who SHOULD get into the Hall of Fame ( Carter ), and 3 flat out busts drafted in the top 6 ( Kandiman, LaFrentz, and Traylor )

Peoria . . . if it makes you feel better, Al Horford can be added to this list, if we add the right talent around him, and he plays well enough in an NBA Final to win an MVP award. The real question with Al is can he still be a highly efficient scorer, if we increased his usage to at least #1 scoring option level ( 26% usage and over ).

While I don't think he can become a 25 ppg scorer who can carry his team, I do think he can become a 20 - 22 ppg scorer who could be very capable of doing at least what JJ did for us on a nightly basis, but shoot 50+% FG in the process. Scoring wise, I believe Horford could become LaMarcus Aldridge . . a guy who can get you 21 ppg and shoot 50%. Unlike LA though, I believe Horford could also become a 10 - 12 rebound per game guy and play better defense.

With no Josh Smith here, Horford could really break out as a player, and play at a legit All-Star level. I've always described those two as being the equivalent of what Golden St had in Curry and Ellis. One of them had to go, in order for the other to get better and reach his maximum potential. That's not to say that Horford will become a superstar like Curry did, but he will be a better player without Smith . . . if the right complimentary pieces are put around him, just like they did with Curry.

So here's the question. Can we put the right type of people around Horford, who can help him get this team to the next level? Most people in this thread do not believe that Horford could be the lead guy. The issue then becomes if the Hawks can find 2 or 3 other guys who are capable of picking up the scoring, rebounding or defensive slack, to lead the team.

The common element in AHF's list, is that those Finals MVPs are going to be in the Hall of Fame. It's not enough to say that they were lottery picks. Those guys are Hall of Fame players, or going to be in the Hall. So if we are to win a title, we probably either need to develop, or acquire a Hall of Fame guy. And then we need to find All-Star caliber players to put around those guys to compliment them, or even take the lead role.

That's why you basically go all out to get Howard and/or Paul. Those are two potential Hall of Fame guys. If you can't get them, you bring in All-Star caliber talent to help him out. Or you sell Horford off for a high draft pick, and go to the bottom, and hope you'll be able to identify a player who is a Hall of Fame caliber player in the draft.