Official Al Jefferson thread

[Chinky_eyed_hawk]

I really don't know anybody who "loves" ZBo outside of Memphis. He is a prime example of a player who played efficient for just two seasons, became a crowd favorite for his grit, was rewarded with a 66 million over 4 years contract right after the Grizzlies first playoff series win and has made them regret it ever since.......

His one saving grace is that while his offense tanked back to career norms he became a vastly improved team and man defender. Jefferson is neither efficient, a crowd favorite, as good a rebounder or displayed much if any defensive apptitude in his career. I'd imagine that it would be even more unconscionable to reward him with a similarly lucrative contract.

Are you serious? Are you saying that Z-bo hasn't always been a formidable post presence all his career? I can't post the numbers but I am pretty sure he was doing damage way back when he was in both Portland and LA. What I am saying is that that Memphis capitalized on his skillset and paired him with someone who could compliment. Not just one player put TEAMS are put together.

Listen, I am not saying that Al is the end all for our post needs, but he, at whatever stage of his career he is in, is still FAR BETTER than any other C the hawks have had in well over a decade. He is still FAR BETTER than many of the FA prospects the hawks have had a chance of landing in the last few years. Not saying that Pekovic might even be a better fit for most of you, but will he be available? This is always the hawks predicament.

I agree with buzzard. Not worth the argument. The sides are so split on if we tank or not, grab talent or not. I am glad we aren't in charge of the team that's for sure.

[MaceCase]

Are you serious? Are you saying that Z-bo hasn't always been a formidable post presence all his career? I can't post the numbers but I am pretty sure he was doing damage way back when he was in both Portland and LA. What I am saying is that that Memphis capitalized on his skillset and paired him with someone who could compliment. Not just one player put TEAMS are put together.

Listen, I am not saying that Al is the end all for our post needs, but he, at whatever stage of his career he is in, is still FAR BETTER than any other C the hawks have had in well over a decade. He is still FAR BETTER than many of the FA prospects the hawks have had a chance of landing in the last few years. Not saying that Pekovic might even be a better fit for most of you, but will he be available? This is always the hawks predicament.

I agree with buzzard. Not worth the argument. The sides are so split on if we tank or not, grab talent or not. I am glad we aren't in charge of the team that's for sure.

ZBo has been a cancer, a malcotent and a leader of some pretty awful teams throughout his career. He was your classic empty stats guy until 2 seasons in Memphis where he had the perfect frontcourt compliment for him, a 7 foot defensive anchor that can cover for him on D and can operate out of the high post, and oh, a contract year. He got paid and regressed immediately to his norms of being one of the most inefficient PFs in the league. Buzz already posted his career TS% and it aint pretty.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Are you serious? Are you saying that Z-bo hasn't always been a formidable post presence all his career? I can't post the numbers but I am pretty sure he was doing damage way back when he was in both Portland and LA. What I am saying is that that Memphis capitalized on his skillset and paired him with someone who could compliment. Not just one player put TEAMS are put together.

Listen, I am not saying that Al is the end all for our post needs, but he, at whatever stage of his career he is in, is still FAR BETTER than any other C the hawks have had in well over a decade. He is still FAR BETTER than many of the FA prospects the hawks have had a chance of landing in the last few years. Not saying that Pekovic might even be a better fit for most of you, but will he be available? This is always the hawks predicament.

I agree with buzzard. Not worth the argument. The sides are so split on if we tank or not, grab talent or not. I am glad we aren't in charge of the team that's for sure.

Chinky, it doesn't matter man. Anything brought up in favor of Jefferson will be shot down, despite the dude about to get paid tens of millions of dollars again. There's a reason for that. And it's not because the dude is some average ball player. It's because he's one of the top ballers in this league.

To diminish his value, they cite whatever stat that will show him in the most negative light, even if all of the other stats show him in a much more favorable light.

TS% is the favorite stat to use against him, but ask TS% lovers why the statistic doesn't factor in turnovers . . . specifically turnovers that occur when a player intends to shoot the ball . . . such as an offensive foul . . . like this play by Blake Griffin.

He has every intention to shoot, even did a monster dunk on Marcin Gortat. If you use the points per possession stat, this play counts against Blake because it resulted into an offensive foul, which also is marked as a turnover.

But if you use total shot percentage, the play didn't even count against Blake, because he "technically" never shot the ball, due to the offensive foul taking the shot away from him.

No shot. No FT attempt. So no play for Blake, even though he lost possession. But total shot % is the holy grail for measuring how efficient a guy is.

If they say so, LOL.

[Admin]

Who gives a crap whether it factors in a turnover or not?  The fact is that he's not an efficient shooter and he's a poor defender and terrible in the transition game.  Yes he does other things well and he's got an array of post moves that are among the best in the league, but that doesn't change the fact that he's not an efficient shooter.  Even his basic fg% of .494 is pitiful for a C with his scoring ability.  I suppose that people are haters by pointing that out too?  In fact Jefferson's last 5 years have been worse than Horf's worst ever year in FG%.  No way I'm paying that much money for a guy who misses more often than he makes. Take a look at the following list, where Jefferson is 18th in basic FG%, among qualified C's.  Every single player who is worse than him, with the exception of Hawes, are at least average defenders, making Jefferson the 2nd worst among those group in value when considering FG% and defense. 

 

 

RK	PLAYER	FG%
1	DeAndre Jordan, C	0.643
2	Dwight Howard, C	0.578
3	JaVale McGee, C	0.575
4	J.J. Hickson, C	0.562
5	Tiago Splitter, C	0.56
6	Al Horford, C	0.543
7	Omer Asik, C	0.541
8	Chris Bosh, C	0.535
9	Robin Lopez, C	0.534
10	Brook Lopez, C	0.521
11	Nikola Pekovic, C	0.52
12	David Lee, C	0.519
13	Nikola Vucevic, C	0.519
14	Andray Blatche, C	0.512
15	Chris Kaman, C	0.507
16	Larry Sanders, C	0.506
17	Kevin Garnett, C	0.496
18	Al Jefferson, C	0.494
19	Marc Gasol, C	0.494
20	Greg Monroe, C	0.486
21	LaMarcus Aldridge, C	0.484
22	Joakim Noah, C	0.481
23	Emeka Okafor, C	0.477
24	DeMarcus Cousins, C	0.465
25	Spencer Hawes, C	0.464
26	Roy Hibbert, C	0.448

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Who gives a crap whether it factors in a turnover or not? The fact is that he's not an efficient shooter and he's a poor defender and terrible in the transition game. Yes he does other things well and he's got an array of post moves that are among the best in the league, but that doesn't change the fact that he's not an efficient shooter. Even his basic fg% of .494 is pitiful for a C with his scoring ability. I suppose that people are haters by pointing that out too? In fact Jefferson's last 5 years have been worse than Horf's worst ever year in FG%. No way I'm paying that much money for a guy who misses more often than he makes. Take a look at the following list, where Jefferson is 18th in basic FG%, among qualified C's. Every single player who is worse than him, with the exception of Hawes, are at least average defenders, making Jefferson the 2nd worst among those group in value when considering FG% and defense.

RK PLAYER FG% 1 DeAndre Jordan, C 0.643 2 Dwight Howard, C 0.578 3 JaVale McGee, C 0.575 4 J.J. Hickson, C 0.562 5 Tiago Splitter, C 0.56 6 Al Horford, C 0.543 7 Omer Asik, C 0.541 8 Chris Bosh, C 0.535 9 Robin Lopez, C 0.534 10 Brook Lopez, C 0.521 11 Nikola Pekovic, C 0.52 12 David Lee, C 0.519 13 Nikola Vucevic, C 0.519 14 Andray Blatche, C 0.512 15 Chris Kaman, C 0.507 16 Larry Sanders, C 0.506 17 Kevin Garnett, C 0.496 18 Al Jefferson, C 0.494 19 Marc Gasol, C 0.494 20 Greg Monroe, C 0.486 21 LaMarcus Aldridge, C 0.484 22 Joakim Noah, C 0.481 23 Emeka Okafor, C 0.477 24 DeMarcus Cousins, C 0.465 25 Spencer Hawes, C 0.464 26 Roy Hibbert, C 0.448

LOL . . see what I mean Chinky?

I mean, does anybody honestly think that Al Jefferson is the 2nd worst center on this list, using the criteria that Dolfan presented? Especially seeing that 2/3rds of these centers couldn't even begin to be good enough offensively to do the things that teams ask Jefferson to do.

Does anybody honestly believe that Kevin Garnett, a guy who shot .496 last year, is a far worse offensive center than Deandre Jordan, who shot .643 last season, but is almost solely relying on CP3 to throw him lobs for dunks for his points?

How many of those centers could shoot that well,functioning as the #1 or #2 option in their offense?

The only guys who have proven that they can do it are

- Howard

- B. Lopez

- Horford

- Bosh

- Pekovic

- Lee ( who played most of his minutes at PF last year, but still gives you great offensive production at center )

- Garnett

- M. Gasol

- Monroe

- Aldridge

- Cousins

- Hibbert ( sometimes )

- and Al Jefferson

That's all folks.

Of that group, he's in the top 10 . . . maybe even the top 7.

That's why he's going to get the big money once again. If you're going to compare Jefferson to centers around the league, compare him to this group. Don't waste your time trying to formulate an argument of how Robin Lopez and Deandre Jordan have more value than Al Jefferson. At least compare him to legit centers in his tax bracket.

Edited June 26, 2013 by northcyde

[MaceCase]

Who gives a crap whether it factors in a turnover or not? The fact is that he's not an efficient shooter and he's a poor defender and terrible in the transition game. Yes he does other things well and he's got an array of post moves that are among the best in the league, but that doesn't change the fact that he's not an efficient shooter. Even his basic fg% of .494 is pitiful for a C with his scoring ability. I suppose that people are haters by pointing that out too? In fact Jefferson's last 5 years have been worse than Horf's worst ever year in FG%. No way I'm paying that much money for a guy who misses more often than he makes. Take a look at the following list, where Jefferson is 18th in basic FG%, among qualified C's. Every single player who is worse than him, with the exception of Hawes, are at least average defenders, making Jefferson the 2nd worst among those group in value when considering FG% and defense.

RK PLAYER FG% 1 DeAndre Jordan, C 0.643 2 Dwight Howard, C 0.578 3 JaVale McGee, C 0.575 4 J.J. Hickson, C 0.562 5 Tiago Splitter, C 0.56 6 Al Horford, C 0.543 7 Omer Asik, C 0.541 8 Chris Bosh, C 0.535 9 Robin Lopez, C 0.534 10 Brook Lopez, C 0.521 11 Nikola Pekovic, C 0.52 12 David Lee, C 0.519 13 Nikola Vucevic, C 0.519 14 Andray Blatche, C 0.512 15 Chris Kaman, C 0.507 16 Larry Sanders, C 0.506 17 Kevin Garnett, C 0.496 18 Al Jefferson, C 0.494 19 Marc Gasol, C 0.494 20 Greg Monroe, C 0.486 21 LaMarcus Aldridge, C 0.484 22 Joakim Noah, C 0.481 23 Emeka Okafor, C 0.477 24 DeMarcus Cousins, C 0.465 25 Spencer Hawes, C 0.464 26 Roy Hibbert, C 0.448

Nearly everywhere you go Points Per Possession is calculated by Points/Poss.

Of course the discrepancy is that the formula for "Possessions" is mostly calculated by FGA+(.44*FTA)-ORB+TOV. Now you will notice that this is TS%.......just with ORBs and TOV added to the equation.

You may wonder why offensive rebounds is in there just like I'm confused as to why assists don't count but you realize that ORB makes sense because a possession is never technically over until the other team actually has it. PPP would seem to work better on a team basis rather than individual, this way you don't need to include assists because the end result of an assist is a basket so if you are just counting a team's made baskets why bother with how exactly they made them beside FG or FT?

Hijack your table if I will because this comp doesn't have Excel for some ass backwards reason and I just want to see what PPP looks like on an individual basis.

RK PLAYER Points Per Pos. 1 DeAndre Jordan, C 1.49 2 JJ Hickson, C 1.37 3 Robin Lopez, C 1.35 4 Nikola Pekovic, C 1.34 5 Larry Sanders, C 1.34 6 Javale McGee, C 1.33 7 Omer Asik, C 1.30 8 Tiago Splitter, C 1.30 9 Nikola Vucevic, C 1.25 10 Brook Lopez, C 1.20 11 Joakim Noah, C 1.20 12 Chris Bosh, C 1.19 13 Dwight Howard, C 1.17 14 Al Horford, C 1.17 15 Andray Blatche, C 1.16 16 Marc Gasol, C 1.14 17 David Lee, C 1.13 18 Roy Hibbert, C 1.13 19 Emeka Okafor, C 1.12 20 LaMarcus Aldridge, C 1.09 21 Al Jefferson, C 1.08 22 Spencer Hawes, C 1.07 23 DeMarcus Cousins, C 1.05 24 Chris Kaman, C 1.05 25 Greg Monroe, C 1.05 26 Kevin Garnett, C 1.03

Not looking good for Al.........even worse than his raw FG%

Now of course Synergy tries to get cute by having their own definition of what a possession is and reduced their PPP formula to just FGA+(.44*FTA)+TOV. Now you may rationalize this as saying "well, Mace. We are trying to focus on scoring situations without using just True Shooting % so including offensive rebounds is unfair because you are likely also rebounding another player's miss not just yours" My answer to that is, an illegal screen is a turnover on a player.....without them ever possessing the ball. Carve out space in the post or push off to receive the ball and get called for a foul and that's a turnover on the player......without them ever possessing the ball. Synergy basically takes Points per Possession and tries to break it down to an individual level by eliminating offensive rebounds but keeping turnovers........without solving for the assist quandary.

Of course to North he likes the stat because it's TS% plus turnovers so Jefferson jumps up from dead last to tied for 8th. Now he admitted that he doesn't know jack behind the workings of the stat but hey, it looks good and seems to confirm his opinion so yea, he likes it. TS% measures scoring efficiency as in every time the ball leaves your hand towards the basket but North hates that because Jefferson is craptacular. He want's to add turnover's to extend the stat out to include you dribbling the ball and losing it ending the "possession" but he won't allow passing the ball to a teammate to be included though because.........well don't ask him.

Hmm, the tables don't seem to have survived the quoting. Oh well.

Edited June 26, 2013 by MaceCase

[Admin]

LOL . . see what I mean Chinky?

I mean, does anybody honestly think that Al Jefferson is the 2nd worst center on this list, using the criteria that Dolfan presented? Especially seeing that 2/3rds of these centers couldn't even begin to be good enough offensively to do the things that teams ask Jefferson to do.

Does anybody honestly believe that Kevin Garnett, a guy who shot .496 last year, is a far worse offensive center than Deandre Jordan, who shot .643 last season, but is almost solely relying on CP3 to throw him lobs for dunks for his points?

How many of those centers could shoot that well,functioning as the #1 or #2 option in their offense?

The only guys who have proven that they can do it are

- Howard

- B. Lopez

- Horford

- Bosh

- Pekovic

- Lee ( who played most of his minutes at PF last year, but still gives you great offensive production at center )

- Garnett

- M. Gasol

- Monroe

- Aldridge

- Cousins

- Hibbert ( sometimes )

- and Al Jefferson

That's all folks.

Of that group, he's in the top 10 . . . maybe even the top 7.

That's why he's going to get the big money once again. If you're going to compare Jefferson to centers around the league, compare him to this group. Don't waste your time trying to formulate an argument of how Robin Lopez and Deandre Jordan have more value than Al Jefferson. At least compare him to legit centers in his tax bracket.

So with all of that talk you moved him from 18th to 13th. Good job! Let's go out and give the 13th best capable of leading an offense C in the league a $12+ million dollar contract right away!!!!!

[Admin]

Nearly everywhere you go Points Per Possession is calculated by Points/Poss.

Of course the discrepancy is that the formula for "Possessions" is mostly calculated by FGA+(.44*FTA)-ORB+TOV. Now you will notice that this is TS%.......just with ORBs and TOV added to the equation.

You may wonder why offensive rebounds is in there just like I'm confused as to why assists don't count but you realize that ORB makes sense because a possession is never technically over until the other team actually has it. PPP would seem to work better on a team basis rather than individual, this way you don't need to include assists because the end result of an assist is a basket so if you are just counting a team's made baskets why bother with how exactly they made them beside FG or FT?

Hijack your table if I will because this comp doesn't have Excel for some ass backwards reason and I just want to see what PPP looks like on an individual basis.

Not looking good for Al.........even worse than his raw FG%

Now of course Synergy tries to get cute by having their own definition of what a possession is and reduced their PPP formula to just FGA+(.44*FTA)+TOV. Now you may rationalize this as saying "well, Mace. We are trying to focus on scoring situations without using just True Shooting % so including offensive rebounds is unfair because you are likely also rebounding another player's miss not just yours" My answer to that is, an illegal screen is a turnover on a player.....without them ever possessing the ball. Carve out space in the post or push off to receive the ball and get called for a foul and that's a turnover on the player......without them ever possessing the ball. Synergy basically takes Points per Possession and tries to break it down to an individual level by eliminating offensive rebounds but keeping turnovers........without solving for the assist quandary.

Of course to North he likes the stat because it's TS% plus turnovers so Jefferson jumps up from dead last to tied for 8th. Now he admitted that he doesn't know jack behind the workings of the stat but hey, it looks good and seems to confirm his opinion so yea, he likes it. TS% measures scoring efficiency as in every time the ball leaves your hand towards the basket but North hates that because Jefferson is craptacular. He want's to add turnover's to extend the stat out to include you dribbling the ball and losing it ending the "possession" but he won't allow passing the ball to a teammate to be included though because.........well don't ask him.

Hmm, the tables don't seem to have survived the quoting. Oh well.

That's good info right there!

Gotta make sure you check "Enable HTML" if you want to keep the table.

[TheFuzz]

LOL . . see what I mean Chinky?

I mean, does anybody honestly think that Al Jefferson is the 2nd worst center on this list, using the criteria that Dolfan presented? Especially seeing that 2/3rds of these centers couldn't even begin to be good enough offensively to do the things that teams ask Jefferson to do.

Does anybody honestly believe that Kevin Garnett, a guy who shot .496 last year, is a far worse offensive center than Deandre Jordan, who shot .643 last season, but is almost solely relying on CP3 to throw him lobs for dunks for his points?

How many of those centers could shoot that well,functioning as the #1 or #2 option in their offense?

The only guys who have proven that they can do it are

- Howard

- B. Lopez

- Horford

- Bosh

- Pekovic

- Lee ( who played most of his minutes at PF last year, but still gives you great offensive production at center )

- Garnett

- M. Gasol

- Monroe

- Aldridge

- Cousins

- Hibbert ( sometimes )

- and Al Jefferson

That's all folks.

Of that group, he's in the top 10 . . . maybe even the top 7.

That's why he's going to get the big money once again. If you're going to compare Jefferson to centers around the league, compare him to this group. Don't waste your time trying to formulate an argument of how Robin Lopez and Deandre Jordan have more value than Al Jefferson. At least compare him to legit centers in his tax bracket.

... who of those guys is worse than Jefferson? Maybe David Lee I guess? Al Jefferson is slow so he can't get out in transition and also plays worse in a fast-break heavy offense (you know, like the one we play), an AWFUL defender, doesn't pass well, doesn't draw fouls, scores at an average efficiency while eating up a ton of possessions... did I mention he's an atrocious defender?

He rebounds well, shoots the midrange decently and has pretty post moves that he uses to score at an average efficiency. He led a team with some solid talent to a 1st round sweep last year and a 9th seed this year.

What is the fascination with this guy?

[yungsta]

... who of those guys is worse than Jefferson? Maybe David Lee I guess? Al Jefferson is slow so he can't get out in transition and also plays worse in a fast-break heavy offense (you know, like the one we play), an AWFUL defender, doesn't pass well, doesn't draw fouls, scores at an average efficiency while eating up a ton of possessions... did I mention he's an atrocious defender?

He rebounds well, shoots the midrange decently and has pretty post moves that he uses to score at an average efficiency. He led a team with some solid talent to a 1st round sweep last year and a 9th seed this year.

What is the fascination with this guy?

they are so fascinated that he has post moves and can score with his back to the basket that they ignore the other more important aspects of basketball that leads to winning games.

bud wants to set a culture of defense, competitiveness and team oriented which al jefferson doesnt fit that at all. So Ferry will probably skip over him anyway.

[DJlaysitup]

bud wants to set a culture of defense, competitiveness and team oriented which al jefferson doesnt fit that at all. So Ferry will probably skip over him anyway.

That's something DF mentioned on the interview that JBH posted. I think you are right. They want to get away from the "I gotta get mine" culture.

(wish em luck..this IS the NBA and there WILL be agents)

[Chinky_eyed_hawk]

they are so fascinated that he has post moves and can score with his back to the basket that they ignore the other more important aspects of basketball that leads to winning games.

bud wants to set a culture of defense, competitiveness and team oriented which al jefferson doesnt fit that at all. So Ferry will probably skip over him anyway.

I can't speak for others, but for me it's a simple for the this:

The hawks have not had a formidable center in the past dozen years. This Free agency gives up the opportunity to land a hof one in Howard who is also a hometown product. Great!!! Problem is he has been on record numerous times saying that he doesn't want to play here so its up to a chance shot to pair him with CP3. In the event we don't get Dwight, AJ is the 2nd best free agent option defensive faults or not. Some can argue for Pek but we will be competing with two other teams including the one who has the rights to match and has said that they would at all cost. Bluff or not. So why not grab a guy who can contribute better than other options and grab a young defensive minded center through draft and/or maybe Dalembert through FA. That gives us a great line up for 3 years and if it doesn't work you have options.

At the end of the day we don't know who DF is going after. So we all are pitching our ballets for our individual solutions to the many of the holes the franchise has right now. To me unless we pull off some sort of trade AJ is our best option for production for the next 3 years

[Johnnybravo4]

Defense is more scheme than individual.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Nearly everywhere you go Points Per Possession is calculated by Points/Poss.

Of course the discrepancy is that the formula for "Possessions" is mostly calculated by FGA+(.44*FTA)-ORB+TOV. Now you will notice that this is TS%.......just with ORBs and TOV added to the equation.

You may wonder why offensive rebounds is in there just like I'm confused as to why assists don't count but you realize that ORB makes sense because a possession is never technically over until the other team actually has it. PPP would seem to work better on a team basis rather than individual, this way you don't need to include assists because the end result of an assist is a basket so if you are just counting a team's made baskets why bother with how exactly they made them beside FG or FT?

Hijack your table if I will because this comp doesn't have Excel for some ass backwards reason and I just want to see what PPP looks like on an individual basis.

Not looking good for Al.........even worse than his raw FG%

Now of course Synergy tries to get cute by having their own definition of what a possession is and reduced their PPP formula to just FGA+(.44*FTA)+TOV. Now you may rationalize this as saying "well, Mace. We are trying to focus on scoring situations without using just True Shooting % so including offensive rebounds is unfair because you are likely also rebounding another player's miss not just yours" My answer to that is, an illegal screen is a turnover on a player.....without them ever possessing the ball. Carve out space in the post or push off to receive the ball and get called for a foul and that's a turnover on the player......without them ever possessing the ball. Synergy basically takes Points per Possession and tries to break it down to an individual level by eliminating offensive rebounds but keeping turnovers........without solving for the assist quandary.

Of course to North he likes the stat because it's TS% plus turnovers so Jefferson jumps up from dead last to tied for 8th. Now he admitted that he doesn't know jack behind the workings of the stat but hey, it looks good and seems to confirm his opinion so yea, he likes it. TS% measures scoring efficiency as in every time the ball leaves your hand towards the basket but North hates that because Jefferson is craptacular. He want's to add turnover's to extend the stat out to include you dribbling the ball and losing it ending the "possession" but he won't allow passing the ball to a teammate to be included though because.........well don't ask him.

Hmm, the tables don't seem to have survived the quoting. Oh well.

So in other words, both stats has flaws in it that may or may not show absolute true efficiency? You latch on to total shooting % . . . I latch onto points per possession ( or play ).

Synergy, in which the NBA scouts actually use, pay less attention to TS% and more attention to PPP. They also pay attention to shot types, ACTUAL FG%, the rate in which you draw a shooting foul, and the percent of times you score on that play type.

So blame Synergy for what they look at, not me. Not my fault that they don't value TS% as much as some of you guys do.

Only on Hawksquawk would people diss a guy who was a #1 scoring option on his team, shot 49 - 50% FG, can score 18 ppg, and rarely turned the ball over in the process. And people wonder why we're stuck in the middle, as they say.

[Watchman]

Who gives a crap whether it factors in a turnover or not? The fact is that he's not an efficient shooter and he's a poor defender and terrible in the transition game. Yes he does other things well and he's got an array of post moves that are among the best in the league, but that doesn't change the fact that he's not an efficient shooter. Even his basic fg% of .494 is pitiful for a C with his scoring ability. I suppose that people are haters by pointing that out too? In fact Jefferson's last 5 years have been worse than Horf's worst ever year in FG%. No way I'm paying that much money for a guy who misses more often than he makes.

Take a look at the following list, where Jefferson is 18th in basic FG%, among qualified C's. Every single player who is worse than him, with the exception of Hawes, are at least average defenders, making Jefferson the 2nd worst among those group in value when considering FG% and defense.

RK PLAYER FG% 1 DeAndre Jordan, C 0.643 2 Dwight Howard, C 0.578 3 JaVale McGee, C 0.575 4 J.J. Hickson, C 0.562 5 Tiago Splitter, C 0.56 6 Al Horford, C 0.543 7 Omer Asik, C 0.541 8 Chris Bosh, C 0.535 9 Robin Lopez, C 0.534 10 Brook Lopez, C 0.521 11 Nikola Pekovic, C 0.52 12 David Lee, C 0.519 13 Nikola Vucevic, C 0.519 14 Andray Blatche, C 0.512 15 Chris Kaman, C 0.507 16 Larry Sanders, C 0.506 17 Kevin Garnett, C 0.496 18 Al Jefferson, C 0.494 19 Marc Gasol, C 0.494 20 Greg Monroe, C 0.486 21 LaMarcus Aldridge, C 0.484 22 Joakim Noah, C 0.481 23 Emeka Okafor, C 0.477 24 DeMarcus Cousins, C 0.465 25 Spencer Hawes, C 0.464 26 Roy Hibbert, C 0.448

I find it ironic that a lot of people on this forum get all excited about Cousins, but he is a much worse shooter than everybody's whipping boy, Al Jefferson. Similarly LaMarcus Aldridge, Marc Gasol, Roy Hibbert and Greg Monroe, are also worse. And looky there, Kaman whom many on here trash, is better than a lot of these guys.

It just goes to show that people believe what they want to believe, and ignore anything that doesn't suit them. Please explain how Cousins is so much better than Jefferson. Seems like we have a little selective interpretation of stats going on.

P.S. Does Javale McGee's % include wrong way baskets?

Edited June 27, 2013 by Watchman

[Admin]

Cousins is light years better on defense and without looking at the stats I think he's a better rebounder on both ends. He's also athletic and can get up and down the court as opposed to turtle man Jefferson.

[Watchman]

Cousins is light years better on defense and without looking at the stats I think he's a better rebounder on both ends. He's also athletic and can get up and down the court as opposed to turtle man Jefferson.

I've never heard anyone describe Cousins as being a good defender. I thought you were just talking shooting %s in your post.

[Admin]

I've never heard anyone describe Cousins as being a good defender. I thought you were just talking shooting %s in your post.

KB posted an article a weak ago that breaks down FG% of opposing players within 5ft of the defender and Cousins was right there among the elite with Dwight in forcing poor shooting in the paint.

[MaceCase]

So in other words, both stats has flaws in it that may or may not show absolute true efficiency? You latch on to total shooting % . . . I latch onto points per possession ( or play ).

Synergy, in which the NBA scouts actually use, pay less attention to TS% and more attention to PPP. They also pay attention to shot types, ACTUAL FG%, the rate in which you draw a shooting foul, and the percent of times you score on that play type.

So blame Synergy for what they look at, not me. Not my fault that they don't value TS% as much as some of you guys do.

Only on Hawksquawk would people diss a guy who was a #1 scoring option on his team, shot 49 - 50% FG, can score 18 ppg, and rarely turned the ball over in the process. And people wonder why we're stuck in the middle, as they say.

No, TS% is not flawed because it shows the exact rate that a player scores when he shoots. The ball cannot enter the basket and a player or team cannot be rewarded with a single point until they shoot. TS% actually measures the rate at which you convert your shots......when you shoot. TS% is much the same as raw FG% in that if you hit 4/10 shots then you hit 4/10 shots, period. What TS% adjusts for is the different value of three pointers and FTs as not all shots are created equal.

PPP takes TS% and tries to expand it beyond a "shot" to a "possession" no different than if you were to say "let me divide the 18th ranked FG% amongst Centers by turnovers to see if that still changes the fact that he will score on less than 1 out of every 2 shots."

Synergy is a useful video archiving tool....not statistical tool. Why wouldn't people be against the #1 option on only one playoff team in their entire career who will get you 18 points on only 16 shots? Yes! This is why the Hawks are mediocre, because their fans aren't demanding players who have never been more than mediocre!