I don't care what anybody says milsap is better than josh smith

[Wretch]

I don't know if he's a better player, but Millsap is a better fit.

[JTB]

Interesting to use Rodman as a comparison. He shot quite a few threes in the first half of his career.

Really? I don't recall that....must have been when he was in Detroit. When he was with the bulls I hardly remember him scoring! Lol

[JTB]

I don't know if he's a better player, but Millsap is a better fit.

Smith is more popular because of blocks and dunks. The media tells people smith is more exciting than milsap. In some ways I guess he is but at the end of the day I say that milsap is right up there with smith no doubt.Like I said you can't defend smiths offense. I mean he's just not good offensively period. Defensively smith can be very good when he wants to. Smiths flaws are easily pointed out you see......but you can't do that with milsap because he always plays in his roll, he always consistent with his shot, he always puts full effort in his game.Even milsaps mental game dominates Smiths. Do I really need to pull up the YouTube videos showing how smith numerous times quit on the hawks?

[Diesel]

I say it's a we don't really know. What's Millsap going to do here? We don't know. What's Smoove going to do in Detroit? We don't know. What we do know is what Smoove would have done here and that's be overpaid. What we do know is that we got Millsap for what some would consider cheap.

So with all that said, it should be an interesting season.

[thecampster]

I say it's a we don't really know. What's Millsap going to do here? We don't know. What's Smoove going to do in Detroit? We don't know. What we do know is what Smoove would have done here and that's be overpaid. What we do know is that we got Millsap for what some would consider cheap.

So with all that said, it should be an interesting season.

I love that we got Sap cheap compared to Smith, but unless we get a go to (no Horford is not a go to), Sap does nothing worth commenting about.

One of the interesting things about Smith is how often he touched the ball but didn't take a shot. He had a very high touch ratio for someone not considered a star offensively. JTB's point is not only rife with hyperbole but compartmentalizes offense down to shot selection. On paper, Josh is once again only 1 point per 50 shots worse than Sap but having Josh on the floor does many, many more things offensively. Passing being one, players having to cheat to stop the cut, etc. Its a very deep basketball discussion that goes far beyond FG% or based single player stats.

I will be interested to see how Millsap's presence helps or hinders sets and I will also be interested to see how the announces spin it.

[thecampster]

Good article on touches, dribbling. http://www.82games.com/dribbles.htm

[thecampster]

I really didn't want to be drawn into another Josh discussion but I wanted to share some advanced stats that show the kind of impact I'm talking about.

In the case of Josh Smith we have 2 important stats for team play. eFG% ON and OFF court for the team as compared with Sap.

eFG% On 52.6% Off 49.8% (Josh effect = +2.8%)

eFG% allowed. On 49.5% Off 49.7% (Josh effect = +.2%) So using this measure of efficiency we see that total FG% of the team differential with the opponent is 3% better with Josh on the floor as opposed to off.

Now using Sap.

eFG% On 50.0% Off 48.0% (Sap effect = +2.0%)

eFG% allowed. On 51.1% Off 48.7% (Sap effect = -2.4%). So using this same measure of efficiency we actually see Utah being .4% better eFG% compared to allowed with Sap off the floor.

Now this is not perfect but it does pose some interesting questions. The data over the course of a year would state the Hawks are better with Smith on the floor and Utah was same or slightly worse with Sap on the floor. This a total team metric.

Now there are many factors, the least of which is not Coaching style. The effect Coach Bud will have means something. In JTB's case he's using a very flawed eyeball test where his view is skewed (mine as well). I will again be interested to see how the offense functions this year and the defense without Smith. Who will it run through in the half court? Who will be the go to?

[Wretch]

Smith is more popular because of blocks and dunks. The media tells people smith is more exciting than milsap. In some ways I guess he is but at the end of the day I say that milsap is right up there with smith no doubt.Like I said you can't defend smiths offense. I mean he's just not good offensively period. Defensively smith can be very good when he wants to. Smiths flaws are easily pointed out you see......but you can't do that with milsap because he always plays in his roll, he always consistent with his shot, he always puts full effort in his game.Even milsaps mental game dominates Smiths. Do I really need to pull up the YouTube videos showing how smith numerous times quit on the hawks?

Well, I wasn't a Josh Smith fan because of blocks and dunks. What some people don't understand or appreciate about Josh's game defensively AND offensively is that he could do a lot of things VERY good - but taking the ball and scoring it wasn't one of them. Josh was good at everything BUT creating his own shot.

- Great passer

- Good at getting into the passing lanes

- Potential to be a great offensive rebounder (y'know, if he'd get his ass down in the paint)

- Good at moving without the ball

- Great at running ON the break (not running the break)

- Excellent help defender/shot blocker

When Smoove focused on those things, our interior defense sometimes looked impenetrable. The guy shut the lane down and altered shots. I'm not going to hate on him. If he had been well coached and if he had chosen to mature THAT part of his game, we would have made the ECF's. No doubt in my mind.

Josh however, had other plans. Dude didn't want that role. He wanted to be the man - to the detriment of our team. Millsap allows better scorers to shoulder the burden of offense, while giving us every bit of the scoring and rebounding Smoove gave us. We're not losing much, but we are probably getting a much better fit.

If we're trying to compare apples to apples - who is the better all around player? I really got no opinion on that and don't care to. Josh was holding us back on the offensive end and Millsap won't. That's all I really care about.

[thecampster]

Well, I wasn't a Josh Smith fan because of blocks and dunks. What some people don't understand or appreciate about Josh's game defensively AND offensively is that he could do a lot of things VERY good - but taking the ball and scoring it wasn't one of them. Josh was good at everything BUT creating his own shot.

- Great passer

- Good at getting into the passing lanes

- Potential to be a great offensive rebounder (y'know, if he'd get his ass down in the paint)

- Good at moving without the ball

- Great at running ON the break (not running the break)

- Excellent help defender/shot blocker

When Smoove focused on those things, our interior defense sometimes looked impenetrable. The guy shut the lane down and altered shots. I'm not going to hate on him. If he had been well coached and if he had chosen to mature THAT part of his game, we would have made the ECF's. No doubt in my mind.

Josh however, had other plans. Dude didn't want that role. He wanted to be the man - to the detriment of our team. Millsap allows better scorers to shoulder the burden of offense, while giving us every bit of the scoring and rebounding Smoove gave us. We're not losing much, but we are probably getting a much better fit.

If we're trying to compare apples to apples - who is the better all around player? I really got no opinion on that and don't care to. Josh was holding us back on the offensive end and Millsap won't. That's all I really care about.

That is a statement I can get behind. The reality of the Millsap contract is it allows 4.5 more million dollars for other contracts. Ferry wasted an opportunity this year to put that money to use. It is much harder to get to the LT than to get away from it and unfortunately we are now over 10 million away form the LT. This limits our incoming trade potential.

That said, the Millsap deal really can't be a Josh to Sap comparison. It can be a Josh +player x to Millsap + 4.5million dollar better player x.

For a comparison, let's use Ivan Johnson. Josh + Lou would have cost about $18.5 million this year. With Sap getting 9 million, that leaves 9.5 million for another player in the apples to apples comparison. So is Josh + Lou > Sap + a 9.5 million player? Depending on the player, yes, given that player has some offensive game or is a defensive center (like Asik) to replace what we are missing.

I can get behind the concept Josh at $14mil a year would hold us back given Ferry uses those resources wisely. Currently, Ferry has only used that money to save the ASG 12 million annually.

[AHF]

Really? I don't recall that....must have been when he was in Detroit. When he was with the bulls I hardly remember him scoring! Lol

In the 1991-92 season, he shot 101 3pts which was the 2nd most in the league among PFs and Cs behind Charles Barkley.

http://bkref.com/tiny/QEQKs

The next season he was at 71 (in 62 games) and was top 10 in the league among PFs and Cs.

http://bkref.com/tiny/w8WCu

Granted, he was never as prolific a "gunner" as Josh Smith was in Atlanta but I remember being shocked to see him among the leaders among big men in 3PA's for a couple seasons in Detroit.

By the time he made it to Chicago, he was only shooting a handful of them over the course of the season.

[LamarHampton]

Is Sap better than Smith? I don't know.

Either way I think the moves were right.

And that's tough for me to say. As a true Atlantan - native to GA and been here all my life - I actually took pride in having Smith here. (And had a twinge of excitment about DH coming in too, alongside Lou to actually represent the city/state). I go to the games and see an arena full of transplants rooting for the other team, and it pisses me off. For whatever reason I felt like if Smith could really shine (and maybe DH and Lou, too), people would actually start to take the city and the Hawks seriously rather than being the butt of the media jokes.

But he had to go. And I'm happy with Sap as his replacement.

Was Josh talented? Hell yes. But I don't care what kind of advanced statistics you show me, nothing is going to counteract the entire arena gasping every time he went to launch a long 2 or 3-pt shot (which happened FAR too often); or bringing up the ball instead of giving it to the PG and then turning the ball over; or having a great play drawn up for him underneath the basket only to turn it over; or bricking FT after FT 50% of the time; or running out the clock and not doing anything with the ball; etc etc.

From where I stand, Sap has close enough stats to Josh and lacks all of those bad habits and because of that, I'm good.

Some people hate Josh and probably will boo him when the Pistons come to town. I won't do that. I didn't even get in on all the booing when I was at the Hawks-Nets game when Joe Johnson came to town for the first time as a Net. (And there was a TON of booing.) Both Joe and Josh certainly had their faults (and no, I don't blame JJ for signing the massive contract - I'd have done the same thing), but they both wanted this franchise to do well, gave what they had for the team, and that's really all you can ask as a fan. Do I wish Josh wouldn't have been such a bonehead? Sure. Especially since I felt that because he was from here he could elevate this team even more than a player from somewhere else. It hurt to see Smith piss all that away, but I don't walk in that man's shoes and I've made my peace with it all. And it was just time for him to go, regardless of stats.

I honestly didn't watch much of the Jazz for the past few years, but from what I've come to understand about Sap makes me think he's more than an adequate replacement for Josh. He seems like a team-oriented player; not flashy, but steady and reliable. Smart. And from what I saw from Smith last year, I'll take that.

Peace out, Josh. Don't hold any grudges or anything like that. Wish you nothing but the best. But also realize it was time for you to move on.

And a very heartfelt welcome for Paul Millsap.

Edited August 17, 2013 by LamarHampton

[macdaddy]

There are good basketball reasons and there are plenty of business reasons. You don't want your product to have guys that a large chunk of your fans don't like. That's why Joe had to go and that's why Josh had to go.

[LamarHampton]

There are good basketball reasons and there are plenty of business reasons. You don't want your product to have guys that a large chunk of your fans don't like. That's why Joe had to go and that's why Josh had to go.

Exactly.