Discussion from game thread about Hawks attendance

[Guest]

I clicked on that link earlier and it said I had to buy the app. So that was that for me. But yeah I did read your post!

This one?

(last year our FCI: http://www.fancostexperience.com/pages/fcx/fci_pdfs/9.pdf at $233.00 but this year $240.04 http://www.fancostexperience.com/pages/fcx/blog_pdfs/entry0000042_pdf000.pdf)

I double checked on the links, they should be links to pdfs. My copy-and-paste game is usually pretty good on this site with the exception of embedding videos. I am real bad at that, but those should be going through. Let me know if they don't and I can upload the pdfs.

[lethalweapon3]

I have a brother who lives there.

There is no comparison between the 2 in terms of cleanliness that appearance of safety. At least that is my opinion. Perhaps statistics paint a different picture but that is just how I feel.

Putting my architect/planning hat on for a hot sec.

Charlotte designed and planned much of their Uptown drags (like Trade and Tryon) with an orientation toward pedestrians rather than cars. Take two steps off the sidewalk and you're inside a restaurant, an office building, or a well-maintained plaza.

Atlanta blew up their downtown and replaced much of their quality on-street architecture with monolithic odes to the weekday parking commuter. Buildings that look great on a postcard, or from a blimp, but not so much when you're standing in front of the entrance. For decades now, you could walk around town, look to your right, and face either a multi-story unadorned slab concrete wall or the gates to a parking deck. Quality public space in downtown has long been spotty, disconnected, and not worth the time of maintaining and supervising... and "the bums" are more than happy to fill in the gaps.

Net result is, people in the middle-income areas of Charlotte actually do go downtown for food and entertainment, while the same demographic of Atlanta avoids it like a plague. The downtown business folks are just now figuring that out, and trying to make Peachtree and Marietta functional for the person who dares to hang around on the streets after white-collar business hours.

Also regarding Charlotte, trust me when I say "the bums" are there around the Horcats' arena, too. They just haven't had the decades of time to entrench themselves into the culture of the newfangled items that surrounds the arena (EpiCentre, CATS Bus Terminal, LRT station) like Atlanta's flim-flammers have had.

~lw3

[Guest]

I clamor about crappy Atlanta fans because despite all of the "excuses" the fans have shown up in the past and as far as I know nothing has changed since back then. Shoot it was just 4 years ago that we averaged 17k per game. If we did that now you wouldn't hear a peep from me.

Oh yeah downtown Houston used to be a bums paradise, and it still is in some parts, but around Minute Maid and Toyota Center and now even around Reliant Stadium it's all getting much nicer. Traffic is a still a bitch if you're coming in from any of the nicer suburban areas that surround Houston, which are all 30+ miles away from downtown there the stadiums are, but at least they're all close to the freeways which makes it easy to get in and out of once you're in the area.

Oh, you mean the pre-QCue era? Or the pre-recession era? Yeah, I guess nothing has changed since then...

As far as Houston, I used to live in the Clear Lake City area (not actually Clear Lake City, but I don't want to mention the town) so I know about those suburbs of Houston. I also lived in Atlanta suburbs. From my anecdotal datum, traffic in Atlanta is orders of magnitudes worse than Houston for suburbanites like myself. Houstonians (not the city, they don't plan which is the beauty of it as far as I am concerned) has done a much better job revitalizing downtown. When I catch up with suburban friends from Houston v. Atlanta, my Houston friends have a much higher likelihood of living in the downtown area than Atlanta. That is just anecdotal, so take it for what it is worth (i.e. my reputation, so not very much!).

Edited December 19, 2013 by hawksfanatic

[lethalweapon3]

Worth noting that just in the past seven days, Al Horford and Company have had to share Philips Arena with Pink, Andrea Bocelli, and Justin Timberlake. Same place. Everybody filled up the arena. Everybody got out of a hard day's work (some from out of state) put up with traffic, grabbed their friends or whoever, parked and/or took the train, and made sure to get to their seats on time. Everybody dealt with "the traffic" and "the bums" just fine. Nobody had to draw up maps of where the money was in order to get a packed house for their performances. Being an accomplished superstar takes care of everything else. Between Pink and JT, there was probably more than a few repeat visitors to the Highlight Factory this week alone.

Sometimes, you simply have to feel confident and good about what you're spending time and money to go and see. When you do, factors like traffic and atmosphere don't even come into play.

~lw3

[coachx]

Comparing a musicians who comes to Atlanta once ever 2 - 5 years is not the same as a baseball team with 81 home games or basketball team with 41 home games.

[macdaddy]

Sometimes, you simply have to feel confident and good about what you're spending time and money to go and see. When you do, factors like traffic and atmosphere don't even come into play.

~lw3

To me its not even the superstar dilemma. Its this right here. You're spending entertainment dollars. You want to go and have a good time. Not go and get harassed by fans of the other team and then have the hawks get embarrassed on their own court. This has happened far too often the last 10 years. We are turning it around but it takes time.

[lethalweapon3]

Comparing a musicians who comes to Atlanta once ever 2 - 5 years is not the same as a baseball team with 81 home games or basketball team with 41 home games.

That's when you look at it as ONE musician. Or two or three. Philips fills-up for musicians, circuses, stuff-on-ice all year long. Certainly more than 40-50 times a year. And the attendees to each and every event face the same problems the on-the-fence Hawks fans do. The Hawks don't just have a problem getting people to buy season tickets. They have a problem getting enough people to come just once or twice a year. As they would if Lady Gaga paid us a visit, once or twice a year. Speaking of which, Pink's concert was such a big hit in March, she made it a point to come back before the year was out. The demand was there. And when the supply is really good, the supplier doesn't have to move next door to the demand for the demand to show up.

~lw3

[Admin]

This one?

I double checked on the links, they should be links to pdfs. My copy-and-paste game is usually pretty good on this site with the exception of embedding videos. I am real bad at that, but those should be going through. Let me know if they don't and I can upload the pdfs.

That's odd the 1st time I clicked it to me to their main page and said I needed to log in or purchase the app.

So in 2012 the average ticket price for the Hawks was $34.75 and in 2013 it is $35.26, up 1.5%. So just going off of that we are the 5th cheapest tickets in the league so that just makes it look even worse that we can only sell 13k per game. The fan cost index is only $240 per game for a family 4 and that's outstanding! This just kinda seems to make my point here that the Hawks are making it highly affordable to go see them and yet people still aren't turning out. Am I missing something?

The Fan Cost Index® comprises the prices of four (4) average-price season tickets, two (2) cheapest draft beers, four (4) cheapest soft drinks, four (4) regular-size hot dogs, parking for one (1) car, two (2) game programs and two (2) least-expensive, adult-size adjustable caps. Costs were determined by telephone calls with representatives of the teams, venues and concessionaires, along with information provided on the teams’ official Web site, or through outside sources. Identical questions were asked in all interviews.

[Admin]

Oh, you mean the pre-QCue era? Or the pre-recession era? Yeah, I guess nothing has changed since then...

As far as Houston, I used to live in the Clear Lake City area (not actually Clear Lake City, but I don't want to mention the town) so I know about those suburbs of Houston. I also lived in Atlanta suburbs. From my anecdotal datum, traffic in Atlanta is orders of magnitudes worse than Houston for suburbanites like myself. Houstonians (not the city, they don't plan which is the beauty of it as far as I am concerned) has done a much better job revitalizing downtown. When I catch up with suburban friends from Houston v. Atlanta, my Houston friends have a much higher likelihood of living in the downtown area than Atlanta. That is just anecdotal, so take it for what it is worth (i.e. my reputation, so not very much!).

You'll have to enlighten me as to what pre-QCue era means. And pre-recession in 2010-2011? I'm pretty sure we've been firmly entrenched in a recession since before then.

Ah, you lived in Alvin. Nobody ever wants to say that live there lol.

[Admin]

To me its not even the superstar dilemma. Its this right here. You're spending entertainment dollars. You want to go and have a good time. Not go and get harassed by fans of the other team and then have the hawks get embarrassed on their own court. This has happened far too often the last 10 years. We are turning it around but it takes time.

Man Atlanta fans are soft! If you have other fans picking on you then pick back or punch them in the face!

[Guest]

That's odd the 1st time I clicked it to me to their main page and said I needed to log in or purchase the app.

So in 2012 the average ticket price for the Hawks was $34.75 and in 2013 it is $35.26, up 1.5%. So just going off of that we are the 5th cheapest tickets in the league so that just makes it look even worse that we can only sell 13k per game. The fan cost index is only $240 per game for a family 4 and that's outstanding! This just kinda seems to make my point here that the Hawks are making it highly affordable to go see them and yet people still aren't turning out. Am I missing something?

I don't think I changed the links, but if you do a google search of "fan cost index" it will put you to a webpage for their mobile app for some reason. But that is the gist of the FCI, it is supposed to show the typical cost for a family. Now when you look at $240 and then compare across cities, that is flawed. This would be like looking at the cost of a massage across cities and finding that a massage is much cheaper in Milwaukee than Chicago (http://www.jblumenstock.com/files/courses/econ174/FEModels.pdf), so then shouldn't we see Milwaukee with more massages than Chicago?!?! No. Partly you can tell a story that demand is higher in Chicago OR you could tell a story about cost of living being higher in Chicago. Same type of reasoning applies across Atlanta and other markets.

Services in Atlanta and Houston and Charlotte are simply cheaper than other places. The great Slim Thug has pointed this out before:

Tweet Added - Refresh Page to see it live!

">If you don't see the Tweet here AFTER REFRESHING PAGE, then it wasn't entered correctly. Please edit and try again.

Important: If the Tweet doesn't load, please refresh the page before editing the Tweet as it may need to refresh to parse properly

Tweet Added - Refresh Page to see it live!

">If you don't see the Tweet here AFTER REFRESHING PAGE, then it wasn't entered correctly. Please edit and try again.

Important: If the Tweet doesn't load, please refresh the page before editing the Tweet as it may need to refresh to parse properly

So by looking at prices across cities and then saying "Hey look at that! Atlanta is cheap!" does not get to the issue at hand. Also factor in that the "cheap" ticket prices in Atlanta are actually not so cheap when you factor in opportunity costs (Magic City Mondays bay-bay!) or transportation costs.

You'll have to enlighten me as to what pre-QCue era means. And pre-recession in 2010-2011? I'm pretty sure we've been firmly entrenched in a recession since before then.

Ah, you lived in Alvin. Nobody ever wants to say that live there lol.

QCue is the dynamic ticket pricing firm that the Hawks hired to handle the pricing of their tickets. You know, the one that claims season tickets will have the best deal and they won't ever charge for a ticket less than what the season ticket holder purchases but in reality they do this and are lying right to season ticket holder's faces? Yeah, that group. To get the whole issue I am referring to you would need to read more than just the one post in that thread I linked to. Long story short, prices are crazy with the Hawks now and it is also unclear that the Hawks ever wanted to maximize attendance. They care about revenues.

Ha, close to Alvin (home of Nolan Ryan) but not actually Alvin. I did know a nephew of Nolan Ryan. I bought his Sega Gensis which was originally a gift from Nolan. So basically me and Nolan are homeboys.

[Admin]

I don't think I changed the links, but if you do a google search of "fan cost index" it will put you to a webpage for their mobile app for some reason. But that is the gist of the FCI, it is supposed to show the typical cost for a family. Now when you look at $240 and then compare across cities, that is flawed. This would be like looking at the cost of a massage across cities and finding that a massage is much cheaper in Milwaukee than Chicago (http://www.jblumenstock.com/files/courses/econ174/FEModels.pdf), so then shouldn't we see Milwaukee with more massages than Chicago?!?! No. Partly you can tell a story that demand is higher in Chicago OR you could tell a story about cost of living being higher in Chicago. Same type of reasoning applies across Atlanta and other markets.

Services in Atlanta and Houston and Charlotte are simply cheaper than other places. The great Slim Thug has pointed this out before:

So by looking at prices across cities and then saying "Hey look at that! Atlanta is cheap!" does not get to the issue at hand. Also factor in that the "cheap" ticket prices in Atlanta are actually not so cheap when you factor in opportunity costs (Magic City Mondays bay-bay!) or transportation costs.

QCue is the dynamic ticket pricing firm that the Hawks hired to handle the pricing of their tickets. You know, the one that claims season tickets will have the best deal and they won't ever charge for a ticket less than what the season ticket holder purchases but in reality they do this and are lying right to season ticket holder's faces? Yeah, that group. To get the whole issue I am referring to you would need to read more than just the one post in that thread I linked to. Long story short, prices are crazy with the Hawks now and it is also unclear that the Hawks ever wanted to maximize attendance. They care about revenues.

Ha, close to Alvin (home of Nolan Ryan) but not actually Alvin. I did know a nephew of Nolan Ryan. I bought his Sega Gensis which was originally a gift from Nolan. So basically me and Nolan are homeboys.

So what you're saying here is that there are more ways to spend your money in Atlanta than in other cities, giving people more options and thereby causing less people to go to games?

I still don't see how ticket prices are crazy for the Hawks though, even if the QCue company are lying. At the end of the day the average ticket cost is under $40 and that seems really great to me. Is that not an accurate number?

haha cool story about the Sega there! Nolan is pretty much a legend here as you know!

[Guest]

So what you're saying here is that there are more ways to spend your money in Atlanta than in other cities, giving people more options and thereby causing less people to go to games?

I still don't see how ticket prices are crazy for the Hawks though, even if the QCue company are lying. At the end of the day the average ticket cost is under $40 and that seems really great to me. Is that not an accurate number?

haha cool story about the Sega there! Nolan is pretty much a legend here as you know!

Your first part is right on, with an added caveat that in order to induce more people to attend you need to lower your price. So part of the low price for Atlanta is due to the multitude of entertainment options. And even then, when you have a low price sometimes the other options are more appealing. Atlanta has more appealing options than a city like San Antonio/Portland/OKC/Charlotte...

Well I point out QCue lying in the sense that they are being legal with their policies. They claim "season ticket holders get the cheapest price!" but then you look at a deal the Hawks run on twitter for $25 lower level seats PLUS a cinch bag or whatever. That would violate the policy for anyone who cares about practical policies. But the legal policies are telling you that QCue is only guaranteeing the lowest price for non-promotional tickets and so long as you give a cinch bag it becomes a promotion.

The price of $40 is a good approximation, no complaints from me. But buyer beware, you need to find your own transportation to the game. So getting a $5-$20 spot for parking, spending 2 hours roundtrip in traffic (median wage implies $17 an hour, but the individuals most likely to attend a game are higher income so that might be $20 or $40 an hour), dealing with the unpleasantries of bums outside the stadium, etc. All that starts to add up. So it becomes a more expensive choice for an individual in Atlanta to go to the game. I know in DC if you want to go to a Wiz game you pay $4-8 round trip on the metro to go to Chinatown area where they have a great scene. You can have a nice meal around there and not worry about a disproportionate amount of bums in that area.

[Admin]

Your first part is right on, with an added caveat that in order to induce more people to attend you need to lower your price. So part of the low price for Atlanta is due to the multitude of entertainment options. And even then, when you have a low price sometimes the other options are more appealing. Atlanta has more appealing options than a city like San Antonio/Portland/OKC/Charlotte...

Well I point out QCue lying in the sense that they are being legal with their policies. They claim "season ticket holders get the cheapest price!" but then you look at a deal the Hawks run on twitter for $25 lower level seats PLUS a cinch bag or whatever. That would violate the policy for anyone who cares about practical policies. But the legal policies are telling you that QCue is only guaranteeing the lowest price for non-promotional tickets and so long as you give a cinch bag it becomes a promotion.

The price of $40 is a good approximation, no complaints from me. But buyer beware, you need to find your own transportation to the game. So getting a $5-$20 spot for parking, spending 2 hours roundtrip in traffic (median wage implies $17 an hour, but the individuals most likely to attend a game are higher income so that might be $20 or $40 an hour), dealing with the unpleasantries of bums outside the stadium, etc. All that starts to add up. So it becomes a more expensive choice for an individual in Atlanta to go to the game. I know in DC if you want to go to a Wiz game you pay $4-8 round trip on the metro to go to Chinatown area where they have a great scene. You can have a nice meal around there and not worry about a disproportionate amount of bums in that area.

That is messed up that they made that claim about the ticket prices. Seems they could get in hot water over that.

The FCI I think was $240 for a family of 4 and that included parking, beers, sodas, hot dogs, programs and a couple of hats and that's super cheap compared to other teams. While those are real costs, they're real costs in any NBA city to see a game. But those were also factors back in 2010-2011 and somehow we averaged almost 4k more fans per game back then and that was with a team who everyone knew were at their max ability. Most think the economy is better now than it was back then so it really doesn't make sense to me. My only guess is that people in Atlanta just don't care about the Hawks anymore. I guess that's the root of the issue for me is the huge drop-off in attendance in the past 3 years.

[Guest]

That is messed up that they made that claim about the ticket prices. Seems they could get in hot water over that.

The FCI I think was $240 for a family of 4 and that included parking, beers, sodas, hot dogs, programs and a couple of hats and that's super cheap compared to other teams. While those are real costs, they're real costs in any NBA city to see a game. But those were also factors back in 2010-2011 and somehow we averaged almost 4k more fans per game back then and that was with a team who everyone knew were at their max ability. Most think the economy is better now than it was back then so it really doesn't make sense to me. My only guess is that people in Atlanta just don't care about the Hawks anymore. I guess that's the root of the issue for me is the huge drop-off in attendance in the past 3 years.

I don't think QCue and the Hawks will get in hot water about this, but they certainly pissed off fans about it. It is bad business practice in my opinion, but legally they are right. It is one of the reasons why lawyers annoy me. Yes, I know it is legal, but it is not right.

Potentially the A$G is suffering because of this move. Who knows? Maybe they are suffering because over the past 4 years they alienated the fans by exporting the Hockey team to Canada? Blame Canada. Maybe the A$G is suffering after attempting to sell the Hawks to a pizza-boy to only find out that he didn't have enough dough? Maybe fans saw the team swing and miss so horribly with Dwight Howard that they are frustrated? Maybe fans have been turned off from the lock-out we had two seasons ago? Maybe the Hawks always have low attendance in November/December and we will see an uptick in attendance for the rest of the year like we always do? (these are the doldrums for attendance, they start to pick up around now though...) Maybe that can explain the decreased number in attendance so far. I don't know what kind of answer you want, but at the beginning of this thread I thought it was pretty clear you were not looking for an answer and were asserting our fans sucked.

Certainly there have been many things that have changed from the last time we averaged 17k fans. And just for my reference, which year are you claiming we averaged 17k fans? I don't see one unless you are rounding up.

Edited December 19, 2013 by hawksfanatic

[Admin]

Okay I think I got all of these posts split off into it's own thread...

To answer you I am looking for an answer. Last night I was pissed because it's embarrassing to be a Hawks fan when everyone sees how empty our arena is and when fans are showing up in the 2nd half. It embarrasses me that our players don't feel like they have a home court advantage and that they don't get the fan support a team with 7 straight playoff seasons should get. But you've provided some good ideas as to what it could be and we'll have to monitor the rest of the season to see where attendance goes. I highly doubt it will change much, but we'll see. My guess is that we'll still be under 14k by seasons end.

[Guest]

I don't think QCue and the Hawks will get in hot water about this, but they certainly pissed off fans about it. It is bad business practice in my opinion, but legally they are right. It is one of the reasons why lawyers annoy me. Yes, I know it is legal, but it is not right.

Now that I think about this a little more, potentially this is why the Hawks decided to rebrand and now call their season tickets Atlanta Hawks Membership. I did have a little pow-wow with a Hawks ticket rep on this issue, and they don't offer season tickets anymore (http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/383101-hawks-membership/#entry641257). The membership appears to be a way you secure purchasing cheaper tickets with an upfront fee. And now they guarantee "best price an locations for add-on seats" which are not the same thing as what one may purchase with the old season tickets.

[Guest]

Okay I think I got all of these posts split off into it's own thread...

To answer you I am looking for an answer. Last night I was pissed because it's embarrassing to be a Hawks fan when everyone sees how empty our arena is and when fans are showing up in the 2nd half. It embarrasses me that our players don't feel like they have a home court advantage and that they don't get the fan support a team with 7 straight playoff seasons should get. But you've provided some good ideas as to what it could be and we'll have to monitor the rest of the season to see where attendance goes. I highly doubt it will change much, but we'll see. My guess is that we'll still be under 14k by seasons end.

I do not think the fans are the thing to blame when you take a step back and look at everything involved. I think people all across the country do not vary in preferences that much. So blaming fans seems lazy in analysis because it is 1) an unfalsifiable claim (how can I prove to you one way or the other that this is or is not a preference issue?) and 2) ignores any business practice that the A$G or another owner may be involved in. Both of those are sore issues with me as bringing either of them up will cause me to be more ornery than normal.

[lethalweapon3]

Okay I think I got all of these posts split off into it's own thread...

((searches for World's Best Moderator mugs))

~lw3

[Admin]

I do not think the fans are the thing to blame when you take a step back and look at everything involved. I think people all across the country do not vary in preferences that much. So blaming fans seems lazy in analysis because it is 1) an unfalsifiable claim (how can I prove to you one way or the other that this is or is not a preference issue?) and 2) ignores any business practice that the A$G or another owner may be involved in. Both of those are sore issues with me as bringing either of them up will cause me to be more ornery than normal.

I know you feel that the blame is on the team but I just don't agree. We've had the same crappy owners and the same mess in the public eye for what 8 years now? The fans came out and supported us pretty well in the latter half of the 2000's but this decade the fan support has gotten progressively worse, while the team has maintained the status quo and has built for the future and as far as I know haven't done anything publicly embarrassing in the past 2 years. At the end of the day the Hawks players are putting out a good product and the fans aren't showing up to support them. That's my angle on things.