Must Read: Per Zach Lowe, NBA floating a proposal that would end tanking

[Guest]

That makes even less sense to me. Why fight for the 8th, 7th, 6th, or even 5th playoff seed when you could lose a couple of more games and get a 7% chance at the #1 pick.....and a 7% at pick #2, and a 7% at pick #3, etc. I think that would make the league even more top heavy then it is now. Teams would just go into medium tank mode trying to be right at a 50% win team.

The NBA already tried this and people complained. I believe this was the Knicks getting Ewing fiasco. Then they moved to a weighted lottery until the Magic won back to back and then they weighed the lottery even more towards teams with bad records.All these quick fixes were intended to solve a major problem by attacking one small aspect of the problem. NBA doesn't want tanking to occur. Why do teams tank? To get a high draft pick which is a specific player like Shaq or LeBron. Why are they so valuable? The restrained contract versus their expected production. Remove the restraint, fix the problem. Tell the Player's Union to shut it when they complain because this shouldn't be a seniority system. Consumers want to see a good product, not something like the Nets.

[tbhawksfan]

The whole "tanking" term has gotten over-blown. What is tanking? If you know you're going to lose and you have a few vets on bloated contracts, it makes perfect sense to flip them for expirings and picks. You might lose a couple more games, but you set yourself up to build the team from teh groud up.Vets on a real loser are bad for the contract situation and can bring in more youth.I like the fact that a traditional loser can get a top pick and climb the standings with their kids..see how far it takes them... Maybe the fact that tanking doesn't correlate more to winning is that the teams are being poorly managed, coached...etcThere are 3 teams with very bad records this year. How much better would they be if they hadn't tanked? Probably little change in the standingsI think the reason the NBA execs don't like it is because it turns off the casual fans. The casual fans want to xin now and don't see much interest in rebuilding for the future.

[AtLaS]

The problem is that there is no perfect scenario, due to the impact of a superstar in the NBA versus other sports.

Hawksfanatic has it right, let LeBron get 40 million a year and implement a hard cap like the NFL. There should be no "max" per se. I think this would help more than anything and would create quite a bit of parity in the league.

[NBASupes]

The NBA already tried this and people complained. I believe this was the Knicks getting Ewing fiasco. Then they moved to a weighted lottery until the Magic won back to back and then they weighed the lottery even more towards teams with bad records.All these quick fixes were intended to solve a major problem by attacking one small aspect of the problem. NBA doesn't want tanking to occur. Why do teams tank? To get a high draft pick which is a specific player like Shaq or LeBron. Why are they so valuable? The restrained contract versus their expected production. Remove the restraint, fix the problem. Tell the Player's Union to shut it when they complain because this shouldn't be a seniority system. Consumers want to see a good product, not something like the Nets.

They didn't have contract restrain when Shaq and Glenn Robinson became some of the NBA's highest paid players out of college, the problem was busts making too much money and killing bad teams cap. There is no answer to this issue because Lebron and Shaq's have too much impact in this league and nothing you can do to change that.

[NBASupes]

The problem is that there is no perfect scenario, due to the impact of a superstar in the NBA versus other sports.

HawksFanatić has it right, let LeBron get 40 million a year and implement a hard cap like the NFL. There should be no "max" per se. I think this would help more than anything and would create quite a bit of parity in the league.

If Lebron gets 40 mil, Durant will get it too, then Westbrook will get 30 mil then you see the problem. There is no solution because All Star players want big money too. You seen how much we paid to Joe Johnson.

Edited December 26, 2013 by nbasupes40retired

[NBASupes]

Sorry fellas, but you land a transcendent talent in the NBA and since the beginning of time, you become an elite team for many years to come unless you lose it like Cleveland did.

Here is the best plan:

1. Draft or sign a transcendent talent. In today's NBA, it's just Lebron. Dwight seemed like he was one before the back injury. Kobe was one. Durant could become one if he can continue to be the passer he has been this season.

2. Be a good market or your player loves your market. I think in Cleveland, Lebron loved Cleveland but no other superstar or role player did, they had problems signing talent as no one really wanted to play there. NBA players are more like divas. They like cool cities.

3. Have a great player development. Teams like San Antonio, OKC, and Indiana have a great player development program. Atlanta and Golden State have made strides recently. This goes along way, you don't want an anti system like Toronto, New York, Brooklyn, Sacramento and Washington.

4. Scout well. Anyone can draft John Wall, Andrew Wiggins, Jabari Parker, Greg Oden, Kevin Durant, Embiid, and Lebron. But Paul George, Russell Westbrook, Lance Stevenson, Roy Hibbert, takes great scouting and great development team because these guys can be half the players they are in the wrong system and without development. The Knicks in the early and mid 2000's did a great job of scouting and a horrible job of development.

[AtLaS]

If Lebron gets 40 mil, Durant will get it too, then Westbrook will get 30 mil then you see the problem. There is no solution because All Star players want big money too. You seen how much we paid to Joe Johnson.

Disagree. With a hard cap, Joe Johnson never sees a contract in the same galaxy. Durant isn't either, and neither is Westbrook. There will be no way for great players to form superteams unless they are willing to take massive paycuts.

[NBASupes]

Disagree. With a hard cap, Joe Johnson never sees a contract in the same galaxy. Durant isn't either, and neither is Westbrook. There will be no way for great players to form superteams unless they are willing to take massive paycuts.

What's the propose of a hard cap? Joe during his FA would be paid and all it's going to do is create overpaid guys like Joe killing your cap more than not. I know you guys tend to be a little fanboyish in the sense that these players should get what they deserve but that will NEVER happen. You will always have a Jon Konkak or Joe Johnson. As long as Lebron's get heavily trashed for not winning rings, they will always try to bring other great talents to take less to play with each other. Just the nature of the business. All of team sports is the same way. That's why agents earn their dollars.

Edited December 26, 2013 by nbasupes40retired

[NBASupes]

It's like some of you guys forget Amir and guys want more to sign or stay in Toronto then with a championship franchise like San Antonio. Didn't we learn this in the Joe era. If not on a great franchise, most players want the most money. That's why none of these ideas make sense because this is not the NFL.

[AtLaS]

What's the propose of a hard cap? Joe during his FA would be paid and all it's going to do is create overpaid guys like Joe killing your cap more than not. I know you guys tend to be a little fanboyish in the sense that these players should get what they deserve but that will NEVER happen. You will always have a Jon Konkak or Joe Johnson. As long as Lebron's get heavily trashed for not winning rings, they will always try to bring other great talents to take less to play with each other. Just the nature of the business. All of team sports is the same way. That's why agents earn their dollars.

Noone would have ever given JJ that type of money with a hard cap. Ever.

Players would be paid what they were worth, and it would be really tough to form the superteams that you see today. You would see stars spread out more amongst the league which would create a much more competitive environment, and MUCH harder to create dynasties as those players are going to want to move on and get paid what THEY deserve.

It's kind of like the fantasy basketball salary cap league. You're not always better off with LeBron or Kobe on your team.

Edited December 26, 2013 by AtLaS

[NBASupes]

Noone would have ever given JJ that type of money with a hard cap. Ever.

Players would be paid what they were worth, and it would be really tough to form the superteams that you see today. You would see stars spread out more amongst the league which would create a much more competitive environment, and MUCH harder to create dynasties as those players are going to want to move on and get paid what THEY deserve.

It's kind of like the fantasy basketball salary cap league. You're not always better off with LeBron or Kobe on your team.

Believe me, someone will pay him. He was a top 15-20 player. He was getting paid regardless. That sounds nice but that will never happen when teams have a bottom-line and every player has a professional agent. Fantasy Basketball is pure fantasy. You can never replica that in real life when players have different purposes and what they want and from what. Like I said, you want something where Lebron is getting paid what he deserves but that will never happen. What will happen is players take less to play with James. Players want a lot more to play in Milwaukee or Toronto and at times Atlanta. When you can come to that realization, then you will realize the only fit is to do what I mentioned early. Player development is critical which is why I like what Coach Bud is doing with Dennis who is very raw. I wish we would have signed Bebe. He is more useful at this level than Ayón and Antić.

[Wretch]

Draft Lottery Tournament

* Play it right after regular season is over

* Seed non-playoff teams 1 - 14 ( in 1st year )

* Group into 7 sections. 1 vs 2 .. to 13 vs 14 ( coin flip determines home team )

* Winners go to a neutral non-NBA city to play in a 3 day tourney

( 1 v 2 winner .. vs .. 3 v 4 winner ) - Group 1

( 13 v 14 winner gets bye to semifinals ) - Group 2

( 5 v 6 winner .. vs .. 7 v 8 winner ) - Group 3

( 9 v 10 winner .. vs .. 11 v 12 winner ) - Group 4

* 1st round winners guaranteed one of top 4 picks in draft

* Winner of tourney gets #1 pick in the draft

* Rest of draft is slotted according to record ( first by final 4 losers .. then by rest of the field )

* Winner is not eligible to be in tourney the following year

Current matchups:

Denver v LA Lakers ( 1 v 2 )

Minnesota v New Orleans ( 3 v 4 )

Milwaukee v Utah ( 13 v 14 )

Memphis v Chicago ( 5 v 6 )

Cleveland v New York ( 7 - 8 )

Brooklyn v Sacramento ( 9 - 10 )

Orlando v Philly ( 11 - 12 )

Something like this is what I've been proposing for some time now. First, on the subject at hand: terrible idea. No matter how you slice it, if you have a set drafting position every year, then teams are handicapped by the draft class and as JayBird was implying...by the draftees themselves.

Moreover, under NO circumstance should a dominant team like Miami, OKC, Indiana be allowed to draft a franchise changing talent over struggling teams (and small market teams) like Milwuakee or Utah. There is absolutely no way to justify that. It's not going to even out over the long run...it's going to ensure dynasties.

A one and done tournament could work though...but you need some rules.

Put teams into groups based upon their record:

Upper Lottery: Plays for lottery positions 1-4

Middle Lottery: Plays for lottery positions 5-8

Lower Lottery: Plays for lottery positions 9-14

Or

Upper lottery: plays for positions 1-7

Lower lottery: plays for positions 8-14

(1 and 8 seed get a 1st round bye)

Factors to discourage tanking to get into better draft position:

[*]in each group, seed teams in reverse based upon regular season wins (or other competitive criteria)

[*]Swap the 4/5 and 8/9 based upon how they fared against each other in the regular season (7/8 in the case of two groups)

[*]For the 14th seed, flip a coin. Winner goes to the playoffs, loser enters the lottery tournament

[*]Players who miss X number of games during the regular season are ineligible to play (i.e. - Derrick Rose, Kobe Bryant)

It's just an idea, but there's a lot you could do with a tournament/seeding to discourage tanking. You also give teams a reason to play hard during the regular season and something to play for AFTER the season. Ultimately, I think something needs to be done because it's ugly to see teams throwing the season just to get a better pick. The NBA is unique with the impact of the star player, how rare they are, and where they're drafted. As long as there is incentive like that to losing, then teams will lose to get it. And that's bad for the integrity of the game - even if the games are "meaningless."

[AtLaS]

Believe me, someone will pay him. He was a top 15-20 player. He was getting paid regardless. That sounds nice but that will never happen when teams have a bottom-line and every player has a professional agent. Fantasy Basketball is pure fantasy. You can never replica that in real life when players have different purposes and what they want and from what. Like I said, you want something where Lebron is getting paid what he deserves but that will never happen. What will happen is players take less to play with James. Players want a lot more to play in Milwaukee or Toronto and at times Atlanta. When you can come to that realization, then you will realize the only fit is to do what I mentioned early. Player development is critical which is why I like what Coach Bud is doing with Dennis who is very raw. I wish we would have signed Bebe. He is more useful at this level than Ayón and Antić.

The goal is not to abolish bad contracts, it is to decrease the incentive to tank and create more parity.

Players generally only take significant paycuts late in their careers, because if they get hurt or their production suffers (i.e. Brandon Roy), they still had their payday. They may take 1-2 million less per year to play for a winner, but they aren't going to take 5-10 million less per year to be on a winning team. You think Kenyon Martin would've signed with the Nuggets if they were offering 6yr/40 million?

In a situation with a hard cap and no max contracts, let's set a hypothetical $75 mil/year cap. If LeBron gets 35+, it is going to be tough to put any significant stars around him without taking a massive paycut. If James Harden is on the market and he can get $20 million per from Charlotte, or 10 million to play with LeBron, he's probably going to Charlotte. In the event that they do get another star, the rest of the roster will be filled with scrubs and journeymen.

It will also be tough to keep championship teams in tact as players who have breakout years are going to want to get their money, and their current team will not be able to retain them.

You are correct though, this will never happen because the players union would never approve it.

[NBASupes]

The goal is not to abolish bad contracts, it is to decrease the incentive to tank and create more parity.

Players generally only take significant paycuts late in their careers, because if they get hurt or their production suffers (i.e. Brandon Roy), they still had their payday. They may take 1-2 million less per year to play for a winner, but they aren't going to take 5-10 million less per year to be on a winning team. You think Kenyon Martin would've signed with the Nuggets if they were offering 6yr/40 million?

In a situation with a hard cap and no max contracts, let's set a hypothetical $75 mil/year cap. If LeBron gets 35+, it is going to be tough to put any significant stars around him without taking a massive paycut. If James Harden is on the market and he can get $20 million per from Charlotte, or 10 million to play with LeBron, he's probably going to Charlotte. In the event that they do get another star, the rest of the roster will be filled with scrubs and journeymen.

It will also be tough to keep championship teams in tact as players who have breakout years are going to want to get their money, and their current team will not be able to retain them.

You are correct though, this will never happen because the players union would never approve it.

It's not going to work. Players will take less money to play with Lebron and Lebron by himself is much better than most potential NBA teams. The problem with your plan always goes back to one thing, one player just has far too much impact and all of the players want to eat as they are all hard working professionals.

[AtLaS]

It's not going to work. Players will take less money to play with Lebron and Lebron by himself is much better than most potential NBA teams. The problem with your plan always goes back to one thing, one player just has far too much impact and all of the players want to eat as they are all hard working professionals.

What star player is going to take significantly less money? When is the last time that you saw a star player (under the age of 32) take 5+ million less than their worth?

Of course LeBron has a higher impact, this will make it more even in the fact that he is getting paid the most. Right now, he's making the same money as guys like Joe Johnson, Pau Gasol, Amare, Bosh, and Dirk, That is not close to being even. Removing max contracts at least levels the playing field a bit, much moreso than the current system.

[NBASupes]

What star player is going to take significantly less money? When is the last time that you saw a star player (under the age of 32) take 5+ million less than their worth?

Of course LeBron has a higher impact, this will make it more even in the fact that he is getting paid the most. Right now, he's making the same money as guys like Joe Johnson, Pau Gasol, Amare, Bosh, and Dirk, That is not close to being even. Removing max contracts at least levels the playing field a bit, much moreso than the current system.

What star player won't get 30-35 mil? Most of the top 15-20 will get highly paid which leads to Lebron still having a much better team around him due to his talent than those teams. That's the problem, we had something like this in the late 90's. After MJ got 32 mil for a season, Shaq wanted 20 mil, KG wanted 23 mil, then you had Marbury wanting 20 mil and Van Horn wanting 17-18 mil which made the NBA create a player cap.

[NBASupes]

Atlas really thinks because Lebron gets 35-40 mil, all of the other players are going to be like, since Lebron makes 35-40, I deserve 10-15 mil lol. I don't think you really understand how these players and agents think. This is not fantasy Basketball or EPL soccer on yahoo. That point system works there but it would never work in real life. NBA owners tried something similar to what you stated 15 years ago and it failed which is why that had the lockout.

Edited December 26, 2013 by nbasupes40retired

[AtLaS]

Atlas really thinks because Lebron gets 35-40 mil, all of the other players are going to be like, since Lebron makes 35-40, I deserve 10-15 mil lol. I don't think you really understand how these players and agents think. This is not fantasy Basketball or EPL soccer on yahoo. That point system works there but it would never work in real life. NBA owners tried something similar to what you stated 15 years ago and it failed which is why that had the lockout.

Yeah because that's what I said. Learn to read.

[NBASupes]

Yeah because that's what I said. Learn to read.

Here is what you said:

Of course LeBron has a higher impact, this will make it more even in the fact that he is getting paid the most. Right now, he's making the same money as guys like Joe Johnson, Pau Gasol, Amare, Bosh, and Dirk, That is not close to being even. Removing max contracts at least levels the playing field a bit, much moreso than the current system.

Here is my reply to that statement:

Atlas really thinks because Lebron gets 35-40 mil, all of the other players are going to be like, since Lebron makes 35-40, I deserve 10-15 mil lol. I don't think you really understand how these players and agents think. This is not fantasy Basketball or EPL soccer on yahoo. That point system works there but it would never work in real life. NBA owners tried something similar to what you stated 15 years ago and it failed which is why that had the lockout.

Your previous statement:

What star player is going to take significantly less money? When is the last time that you saw a star player (under the age of 32) take 5+ million less than their worth?

I didn't directly answer it because I would have said MJ did it, Lebron did it, Wade did it, Bosh did it, Boozer did it. But my indirect answer is

What star player won't get 30-35 mil? Most of the top 15-20 will get highly paid which leads to Lebron still having a much better team around him due to his talent than those teams. That's the problem, we had something like this in the late 90's. After MJ got 32 mil for a season, Shaq wanted 20 mil, KG wanted 23 mil, then you had Marbury wanting 20 mil and Van Horn wanting 17-18 mil which made the NBA create a player cap.

[sturt]

So bad teams could get stuck as a bad team for decades w/o any help from the draft. The top pick should go to the worst team to help them become better. Good teams don't tank. I'd hate to see a situation in which a team wins a title or at least gets to the CF's and turns around and also has the #1 pick in the draft. A situation of where the rich get richer. Also, drafts are much weaker nowadays... I understand that teams would rotate in and out of the top 5 and wouldn't have to wait 25 years to get back into the top 5. It's a great attempt at ending tanking, but I don't like this proposal at all. Just make it where the three worse teams are blockaded from receiving a top 3 pick.

Pardon the observation but it seems you started with erroneous premise... corrected it... called it "a great attempt at ending tanking"... but then, didn't alter your conclusion in any way.

(...hmmm...)