Must Read: Per Zach Lowe, NBA floating a proposal that would end tanking

[Diesel]

I think that's a very bad idea...if a team isn't tanking and just can't win, they could be looking at indefinite monetary penalties. For a franchise that's financially troubled, you're looking at a nightmare scenario. There's no need to punish bad teams even further.

This is not an everlasting punishment. Cleveland gets Lebron James. Are they they one of the worst three next year?

Moreover, if you have a team that does get to be one of the worst three in the league (let's say) for three years. If you are the worst three for three consecutive years, that's three years that you have benefited from the draft and produced nothing. Let's do a for instance here.

Cleveland Selects Lebron James.

Cleveland Selects Dwight Howard.

Cleveland Selcects Deron Williams

That's Year 1 20%. Year 2: 20%. Year 3: 5%.

Do you really expect there to be a year 4, 5, or 6? Even so, the penalty is not for many years, it's for that year. The team has the player that it sought to get. The worst team gets the best player (just like in Football and Baseball). The only thing is that there's a penalty for getting him.

This is not going to exile that team from getting a player for the next 10 years.

This is not going to force a team into a playoff system that serves no purpose... What was the season about?

This gives a helping hand and reinforces a stance against tanking.

[sturt]

You're making the assumption here that each team will have an equal shot at it, given the same options and parameters. The folly in that argument is going back to what I've already said - there are too many factors that are going to skew the end result of what you pick. It's a crap shoot with these players and it's further complicated by the crap shoot of the triad in this system. I mean...look at the luck of the draw in the Oden/Durant/Horford triad. Yes, every team has to deal with that, but OKC comes out of that far better than Portland and Atlanta.

The concern must center on ensuring equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. When you start trying to ensure equality of outcome, you begin to accept principles--in the political world, we call it socialism--that run counter to the entire essence of competitive athletics. That is, survival of the fittest... honor to the team that proves its superiority on the field of play.

I don't think you can justify the Hawks losing a top 3 pick for the next 9 years on the premise that, "Hey, Memphis could get a raw deal in 2009...they better do their homework!" They better not have any injuries or psychological issues either.

The principle of equality of outcome agrees with you.

The principle of equality of opportunity says, yes I can justify it. There is no advantage that Team X receives over Team Y. But moreover, there seems to be an underlying premise here that the draft is the only way to acquire good players. But free agency and trades have been and continue to be other viable options.

Edited December 27, 2013 by sturt

[Wretch]

you offer a great decentive but there's no coming back from your decentive. Also, every year, three new teams regardless of record. Eventually, a really good team will have a 33% chance at a great player?

^^That's what I'm saying.

This is not an everlasting punishment. Cleveland gets Lebron James. Are they they one of the worst three next year?

Moreover, if you have a team that does get to be one of the worst three in the league (let's say) for three years. If you are the worst three for three consecutive years, that's three years that you have benefited from the draft and produced nothing. Let's do a for instance here.

Cleveland Selects Lebron James.

Cleveland Selects Dwight Howard.

Cleveland Selcects Deron Williams

That's Year 1 20%. Year 2: 20%. Year 3: 5%.

Do you really expect there to be a year 4, 5, or 6? Even so, the penalty is not for many years, it's for that year. The team has the player that it sought to get. The worst team gets the best player (just like in Football and Baseball). The only thing is that there's a penalty for getting him.

This is not going to exile that team from getting a player for the next 10 years.

This is not going to force a team into a playoff system that serves no purpose... What was the season about?

This gives a helping hand and reinforces a stance against tanking.

See, you're like Sturt here. You're ASSUMING that given your window of opportunity - be it a triad or be it 3 years of "high draft position" fines - you're assuming that you WILL come away with a player that will turn your fortune around. This is just not the case! None these teams want to be in the lottery every year. They're all dreaming of drafting an elite talent, building a franchise around him, marketing him well, and making money off of him. It just doesn't work the way you guys think it works.

What you guys are talking about is like buckets full of mystery packs of collectibles. You have a very limited idea about what's inside the wrapper, but the object is to get the super rare card/toy/collectible. In the case of Diesel's Fine plan, you get the shit shocked out of you every time you stick your hand in the bucket. The level of shock depends upon how deep you reach into the bucket - with the understanding that there are likely to be better mystery packs at the bottom and you have to keep reaching in and getting shocked until you get the rare (or die).

In your case Sturt, there are basically dozens of prize buckets. Though, the best prize packs are put in one of three buckets. In the rest of the buckets, your chances of securing a super rare collectible are FAR less. You don't get shocked for reaching into a bucket, but you can only reach into one bucket every two months. This is actually fair. However, some kids have already nabbed a super rare...and guess what? They'll get to reach in again and get another one.

...and at the end of each day, anyone that doesn't have a super rare collectible gets shocked. But this is okay because other people are getting shocked. So it's fair.

The concern must center on ensuring equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. When you start trying to ensure equality of outcome, you begin to accept principles--in the political world, we call it socialism--that run counter to the entire essence of competitive athletics. That is, survival of the fittest... honor to the team that proves its superiority on the field of play.

The principle of equality of outcome agrees with you.

The principle of equality of opportunity says, yes I can justify it. There is no advantage that Team X receives over Team Y. But moreover, there seems to be an underlying premise here that the draft is the only way to acquire good players. But free agency and trades have been and continue to be other viable options.

But the reality is that the ramifications of ignoring the outcome of the draft are SERIOUS. You cannot simply ignore the outcome of the draft on the basis of "static opportunity = fairness", because there is no way to ensure these teams all have the same opportunity.

On paper, you can call it that. In a court of law, it would hold up. In theory, you're absolutely right. In reality, you're wrong. The draft class varies too much year to year - you will not get the same opportunity Cleveland had with LeBron or San Antonio with Duncan or even Dallas with Dirk.

Moreover, stuff happens. Follow through with this kind of system and you are punishing teams for circumstances that are 100% beyond their control. When do you get the opportunity to correct an Oden or Jay Williams?

The proposal is as far from the spirit of sports as is tanking. Because it is very likely that an elite team will acquire a prime draft slot...not through competition, not by survival of the fittest, not by hard work....but by simple math.

Fair? Sure, because math unbiased. Everybody gets an equal opportunity. Is it right? Not at all. Take the elite teams out of the equation and it's a different conversation. Otherwise...I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on it.

(BTW Diesel, what is the point of the regular season for these teams now? At least with competitive seeding you give them a REASON to be competitive during the regular season).

Edited December 27, 2013 by WretchedDamnCrow

[Diesel]

^^That's what I'm saying.

See, you're like Sturt here. You're ASSUMING that given your window of opportunity - be it a triad or be it 3 years of "high draft position" fines - you're assuming that you WILL come away with a player that will turn your fortune around. This is just not the case! None these teams want to be in the lottery every year. They're all dreaming of drafting an elite talent, building a franchise around him, marketing him well, and making money off of him. It just doesn't work the way you guys think it works.

What you guys are talking about is like buckets full of mystery packs of collectibles. You have a very limited idea about what's inside the wrapper, but the object is to get the super rare card/toy/collectible. In the case of Diesel's Fine plan, you get the shit shocked out of you every time you stick your hand in the bucket. The level of shock depends upon how deep you reach into the bucket - with the understanding that there are likely to be better mystery packs at the bottom and you have to keep reaching in and getting shocked until you get the rare (or die).

In your case Sturt, there are basically dozens of prize buckets. Though, the best prize packs are put in one of three buckets. In the rest of the buckets, your chances of securing a super rare collectible are FAR less. You don't get shocked for reaching into a bucket, but you can only reach into one bucket every two months. This is actually fair. However, some kids have already nabbed a super rare...and guess what? They'll get to reach in again and get another one.

...and at the end of each day, anyone that doesn't have a super rare collectible gets shocked. But this is okay because other people are getting shocked. So it's fair.

But the reality is that the ramifications of ignoring the outcome of the draft are SERIOUS. You cannot simply ignore the outcome of the draft on the basis of "static opportunity = fairness", because there is no way to ensure these teams all have the same opportunity.

On paper, you can call it that. In a court of law, it would hold up. In theory, you're absolutely right. In reality, you're wrong. The draft class varies too much year to year - you will not get the same opportunity Cleveland had with LeBron or San Antonio with Duncan or even Dallas with Dirk.

Moreover, stuff happens. Follow through with this kind of system and you are punishing teams for circumstances that are 100% beyond their control. When do you get the opportunity to correct an Oden or Jay Williams?

The proposal is as far from the spirit of sports as is tanking. Because it is very likely that an elite team will acquire a prime draft slot...not through competition, not by survival of the fittest, not by hard work....but by simple math.

Fair? Sure, because math unbiased. Everybody gets an equal opportunity. Is it right? Not at all. Take the elite teams out of the equation and it's a different conversation. Otherwise...I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on it. (BTW Diesel, what is the point of the regular season for these teams now? At least with competitive seeding you give them a REASON to be competitive during the regular season).

What makes my plan fair is that you do get the prize and if it fails, you can come back next year and get the prize. You just don't get fully rewarded for being the worst team in the league. There's a penalty for that along with the prize.

My problem with the tourney is this. What stops a team like Chicago who has gone through injury... from just tanking the season, developing players and then come tourney time, turning on the jets and beating the teams that are in the tourney so that they can get this prize and then coming back next season with a team twice as good? In your system, the rich gets rewarded for their ability to play along. If they conspire, they can be just as pathetic as they want to be and there's nothing stopping them from doing so.

However, in my system... EVERYBODY feels the pain from tanking and losing. The team feels it. The players feel it. The GM feels it. The coach feels it. Yeah, they get rewarded, but at the end of the day, as the season winds down, I think you will have more teams playing harder not to lose than to lose. Did you watch NY on Christmas Day. That was a team in total quit mode. Nobody trying. The reason nobody was trying is because there was no incentive or decentive for that posture. However, if you start docking the pay of that team, I believe they will get in line and play as hard as they can. That's all we as sports fans want.

[Wretch]

What makes my plan fair is that you do get the prize and if it fails, you can come back next year and get the prize. You just don't get fully rewarded for being the worst team in the league. There's a penalty for that along with the prize.

My problem with the tourney is this. What stops a team like Chicago who has gone through injury... from just tanking the season, developing players and then come tourney time, turning on the jets and beating the teams that are in the tourney so that they can get this prize and then coming back next season with a team twice as good? In your system, the rich gets rewarded for their ability to play along. If they conspire, they can be just as pathetic as they want to be and there's nothing stopping them from doing so.

However, in my system... EVERYBODY feels the pain from tanking and losing. The team feels it. The players feel it. The GM feels it. The coach feels it. Yeah, they get rewarded, but at the end of the day, as the season winds down, I think you will have more teams playing harder not to lose than to lose. Did you watch NY on Christmas Day. That was a team in total quit mode. Nobody trying. The reason nobody was trying is because there was no incentive or decentive for that posture. However, if you start docking the pay of that team, I believe they will get in line and play as hard as they can. That's all we as sports fans want.

Well...you're not docking the pay of the team. You'll hit the owners for sure, but the players aren't losing a dime. GL getting them to budge on guaranteed money if that's what your alluding to BTW! :D If that's not your point, that would TRULY be an awesome disincentive! Lose money as you lose games! lol That'd get ugly quick though...

On your plan... You still have to come back and stick your hand in the "fine jar." That's gonna suck for a team that can't get out of the bottom of the barrel. I suppose if there's only fines for the top 3 picks...that might discourage teams from intentionally going in there. However, this is only going to give an advantage to the Cubans and Prokhorov's. They'll laugh at that money and tank away. I think...and if there's a LeBron in there? Or a Duncan? I don't think a fine is going to deter anybody

In the tourney system...

Teams only play teams in their tier...so it's MULTIPLE tournaments. This keeps teams like fringe playoff teams in the West this year from steamrolling the lames of the East. But if a Tourney is just too complicated and goofy...then just seed them competitively the same way.

Seed 1-4 competitively vs. each other, same for 5-8, and for 9-14. To keep teams from tanking into a better seeded tier, flip the 4/5 and the 8/9 afterwards based upon their head to head match up. There is no way to know how the standings will play out at the end of the season, so teams in this scenario have no choice but to compete to improve their draft position. The better you fair in the regular season, the better your chances of securing a better pick in your tier.

Currently a #2 seed in the draft by virtue of record? Wanna keep sucking to stay in this tier? Guess what? If you have a poor showing against seeds 1-4, you could end up with the 4th pick. If you didn't have a good showing vs. the 5th seed guess what? You're now moved from #2 spot in the draft to #5.

But if you push and you win like you're supposed to? Maybe you have a great showing vs. seeds 1-4? Maybe you WERE at the #4 seed, but because you fared pretty well against your tier, guess what? You now have the #1 pick in the draft. No lottery. No fines and best of all...it's in the spirit of the game. Fight for what you want.