Without a Lottery pick, what will Ferry do?

[tbhawksfan]

I guess there are 2 kinds of fan (at leastà those that want their team to WIN and those that will accept medicrity and be enthousiastic about it.

The culture change was essential. The old culture was unacceptable. Smith never would 've played for me past his third season. We knew what he was then.

It wasn't just Smith, the whole team looked uncoached. Of course Larry Drew hiring was not a winning culture move....

The new culture is what I expect. Not really a big achievement bringing things to normal.

I didn't say that last summers signings were bad, I said they were stupid; unless the Hawks have a medicrity culture. They didn't set us up to beat the Heat or Indy or OKC in the next 2 years. If we are'nt going to win in the next 2 years, then we need to build for 2-4 years from now.

[Admin]

I guess there are 2 kinds of fan (at leastà those that want their team to WIN and those that will accept medicrity and be enthousiastic about it. The culture change was essential. The old culture was unacceptable. Smith never would 've played for me past his third season. We knew what he was then. It wasn't just Smith, the whole team looked uncoached. Of course Larry Drew hiring was not a winning culture move.... The new culture is what I expect. Not really a big achievement bringing things to normal. I didn't say that last summers signings were bad, I said they were stupid; unless the Hawks have a medicrity culture. They didn't set us up to beat the Heat or Indy or OKC in the next 2 years. If we are'nt going to win in the next 2 years, then we need to build for 2-4 years from now.

And you wonder why you're getting sarcastic responses? You have a serious problem with expectations if you think that in 1 year Ferry could take a team that was capped out and had no shot at moving past the 2nd round and rebuild them into a team that could beat the Heat or Indy or OKC in the next 2 years. We had very little young talent, overpaid players, headcase(s), etc. and now we've got a couple of young potential stud draft picks (plus some quality depth picks like Scott), we can swap with Brooklyn the next 2 years and don't owe anyone a 1st, we've got Millsap and Korver and Teague who are all very good trade assets on very good contracts, we've got a terrific young coach and a terrific GM. I honestly have to believe that you're being intentionally obtuse here to not see all this.

[tbhawksfan]

As I've said before; there seem to be 2 options available to us:

Collect assets and look to move them for a star

Build through the draft

It appears that Ferry is doing the first. Then I ask why sign Sap to a 2 year deal? As I said, we either keep him and he walks or we re-sign him (which doesn't make sense:Horf PF) or we flip him now to get a max value trade. Korver is a valuable player for a competing team. We are not one. Good trade value to a winner.

So, I've been anticipating trades. Don't care if we trade for a super-star or good picks; as long as we're trying to build a team that will kick butt. Every time someone proposes a possible trade someone says: can't trade the pick, can't trade Sap...

I'll wait for Ferry to do what he's going to do. I expect things to shake based on his past moves. I'm really proposing this debate to the actual people that frequent this site and constantly try to nix every post that proposes change.

The culture should remain no matter the players. The players and moves should add up to a championship attempt.

I think this site is a perfect place to come and propose hypothetical changes to take this team where it needs to go.

[Admin]

As I've said before; there seem to be 2 options available to us:

Collect assets and look to move them for a star

Build through the draft

It appears that Ferry is doing the first.

What on Earth has led you to believe that it's an either/or situation?

[Guest]

All I know is I'm enjoying watching this team play.

Do we have holes? yes

Are we competing for a championship today? - NO

Do I want the Hawks to win a Championship? - YES

Do I see the player development that is happening - Yes.

Has the trade deadline come and gone that I missed? NO

Can Millsap and Korver be traded this season - YES

Can Millsap amd Korver finish this season, then get traded during the draft when Ferry knows what pick he can get? - YES

Can Millsap and Korver be traded next season? YES

Do I know what Ferry's plan is? NO

Do I really care what the actually plan is? NO - as long as it's not getting bad contracts. I know there is a plan.

When and if Ferry makes a move, will I comment? - YES

Can I throw out what I think the plan should/can/will be? - Sure, just not gonna

Why don't you tell us what Ferry should have done this offseason instead of making his stupid signings like re-signing Teague, re-signing Korver and signing Millsap?

[tbhawksfan]

And you wonder why you're getting sarcastic responses? You have a serious problem with expectations if you think that in 1 year Ferry could take a team that was capped out and had no shot at moving past the 2nd round and rebuild them into a team that could beat the Heat or Indy or OKC in the next 2 years. We had very little young talent, overpaid players, headcase(s), etc. and now we've got a couple of young potential stud draft picks (plus some quality depth picks like Scott), we can swap with Brooklyn the next 2 years and don't owe anyone a 1st, we've got Millsap and Korver and Teague who are all very good trade assets on very good contracts, we've got a terrific young coach and a terrific GM. I honestly have to believe that you're being intentionally obtuse here to not see all this.

I don't wonder why and I have no problem with expectations. I also am aware of all the things that you mentioned. I also think the last part of your post is agreeing with me; "we've got Millsap and Korver and Teague who are all very good trade assets on very good contracts"

Good trade assets, but not guys that we'll win with now. Millsap's value will decline a lot after the deadline. You can' hide a plan too long. As you say it takes time and multiple moves to set it up. The reason you can't hide a plan is because over time the moves will indicate the direction. If Sap, JT, Korver are traded at top value, then I'll see a plan. A+B=C A=signing win now players: B=trade them at high value; C= improve the team.

To not move Sap this now would look like a guy that needs to make some money; so he buys something to add value to to flip for a profit but then falls in love with it and decides to keep it when he can't afford it.

Keeping Sap will mean that we didn't plan on flipping him or that Ferry fell in love with him and thought he could win with this team. He can't win with this team so he has to flip him.

Obtuse isn't a good choice of words; provocative is much more a propos

[BrazilianHawk]

That's easy, he could have signed Chris Floppin' Paul and DH-12. We would be instant contenders.

Edited January 16, 2014 by BrazilianHawk

[tbhawksfan]

What on Earth has led you to believe that it's an either/or situation?

Can you point out some other plausible senarios; please.

[tbhawksfan]

All I know is I'm enjoying watching this team play.

Do we have holes? yes

Are we competing for a championship today? - NO

Do I want the Hawks to win a Championship? - YES

Do I see the player development that is happening - Yes.

Has the trade deadline come and gone that I missed? NO

Can Millsap and Korver be traded this season - YES

Can Millsap amd Korver finish this season, then get traded during the draft when Ferry knows what pick he can get? - YES

Can Millsap and Korver be traded next season? YES

Do I know what Ferry's plan is? NO

Do I really care what the actually plan is? NO - as long as it's not getting bad contracts. I know there is a plan.

When and if Ferry makes a move, will I comment? - YES

Can I throw out what I think the plan should/can/will be? - Sure, just not gonna

Why don't you tell us what Ferry should have done this offseason instead of making his stupid signings like re-signing Teague, re-signing Korver and signing Millsap?

I'd be happy to. If we he would have done a bit more, we might actually have been able to put a serious scare into the top teams come playoff time. He had the extra money as even after his moves we were far from LT. Say instead of Carroll, sign a better wing or Carroll and another quality wing or center. Without the Horf injury, this team didn't need too much more to compete. He stopped short if the goal ws to compete now.

If he didn"t think we could compete; then his moves make sense as he'll flip them to continue the youth movement.

I agree with you, it's not too late. JT, Korver can be moved later, but Sap will lose value after the deadline; At the next trade opportunity he will be an expiring.

I'm not talking to Ferry here. I'm talking to the people that shoot down any or every change senario without giving a plausible argument as to why not.

I trust Ferry to be intelligent and competant and hope he has the power to try to build a champion. When I propose possible ways to do it and people act like it's blasphemy here, well then I sak them to clarify their position.

"Can I throw out what I think the plan should/can/will be? - Sure, just not gonna"

Why not? and does it bother you if others do?

Edited January 16, 2014 by tbhawksfan

[Jody23]

I think the Millsap signing was a great get and I'm also good with having Korver on the deal he got. I'm not sold on Teague. If he stays at his current level of play, his deal may become difficult to move due to the abundance of quality point guards. All that being said, Ferry definitely needs more time, but his philosophy of being "opportunistic" (his words)...well I'm still skeptical about it. I could be very wrong (and I hope I am) but I just don't see another James Harden scenario going down which I think is what Ferry's looking for.

[Guest]

I'd be happy to. If we he would have done a bit more, we might actually have been able to put a serious scare into the top teams come playoff time. He had the extra money as even after his moves we were far from LT. Say instead of Carroll, sign a better wing or Carroll and another quality wing or center. Without the Horf injury, this team didn't need too much more to compete. He stopped short if the goal ws to compete now. We would all have liked a better wing? which one was available and wanted to come here?

If he didn"t think we could compete; then his moves make sense as he'll flip them to continue the youth movement.

I agree with you, it's not too late. JT, Korver can be moved later, but Sap will lose value after the deadline; At the next trade opportunity he will be an expiring. He can be an expiring (some teams are interested in that) or the team trading for him can actually WANT to keep him and resign him?

I'm not talking to Ferry here. I'm talking to the people that shoot down any or every change senario without giving a plausible argument as to why not.

What has been proposed and shot down? specifics please

I trust Ferry to be intelligent and competant and hope he has the power to try to build a champion. When I propose possible ways to do it and people act like it's blasphemy here, well then I sak them to clarify their position.

"Can I throw out what I think the plan should/can/will be? - Sure, just not gonna"

Why not? and does it bother you if others do? Because there are too many scenarios - I don't care and it definitely does not bother me who throws out any scenarios, that's what the site is for - I comment as I see fit.

[tbhawksfan]

I think the Millsap signing was a great get and I'm also good with having Korver on the deal he got. I'm not sold on Teague. If he stays at his current level of play, his deal may become difficult to move due to the abundance of quality point guards. All that being said, Ferry definitely needs more time, but his philosophy of being "opportunistic" (his words)...well I'm still skeptical about it. I could be very wrong (and I hope I am) but I just don't see another James Harden scenario going down which I think is what Ferry's looking for.

I'm with you on this one. The kicker with this strategy is getting that top player when moved. Even if a top guy that we actually want becomes available, do we get him?

I also don't think you can keep all options open. If you want to win soon, you trade potential for prime, if you want to rebuild you trade prime for potential, if you sit in the middle the chances are very high that you play mediocre ball. If you can't win now, you don't let now assets lose their value; especially when the results will only be mediocre.

[tbhawksfan]

I'd be happy to. If we he would have done a bit more, we might actually have been able to put a serious scare into the top teams come playoff time. He had the extra money as even after his moves we were far from LT. Say instead of Carroll, sign a better wing or Carroll and another quality wing or center. Without the Horf injury, this team didn't need too much more to compete. He stopped short if the goal ws to compete now. We would all have liked a better wing? which one was available and wanted to come here?

If he didn"t think we could compete; then his moves make sense as he'll flip them to continue the youth movement.

I agree with you, it's not too late. JT, Korver can be moved later, but Sap will lose value after the deadline; At the next trade opportunity he will be an expiring. He can be an expiring (some teams are interested in that) or the team trading for him can actually WANT to keep him and resign him?

I'm not talking to Ferry here. I'm talking to the people that shoot down any or every change senario without giving a plausible argument as to why not.

What has been proposed and shot down? specifics please

I trust Ferry to be intelligent and competant and hope he has the power to try to build a champion. When I propose possible ways to do it and people act like it's blasphemy here, well then I sak them to clarify their position.

"Can I throw out what I think the plan should/can/will be? - Sure, just not gonna"

Why not? and does it bother you if others do? Because there are too many scenarios - I don't care and it definitely does not bother me who throws out any scenarios, that's what the site is for - I comment as I see fit.

There were many players better than Carroll moved and we had more money. At the time I watched players move and though to myself; damn, why didn't we try to add them instead of or with Carrol. More have moved since December.

Do you think that Sap would have more trade value now or during the off-season as an expiring?

What's been shot down? Well, I'm not going to go back through most of the threads to cite instances. As I said, the reason I'm discussing these things in depth is because everytime that me or so else proposes something/anything there are posters who bring the can't trade Sap, can't trade the pick. So I ask how you do it without doing one or the other. Really just asking people to justify their positions a bit, instead of shooting down other people's ideas.

"Because there are too many scenarios - I don't care and it definitely does not bother me who throws out any scenarios, that's what the site is for - I comment as I see fit."

Good, we agree and please do. Yeah this is the perfect place to throw things up into the air and see what comes down. We might occasionally get something right. Just a little xtra fun while we watch our team's progress.

But, I don't agree that there are "too many senarios", the assets moved are variables but the possible paths to change are quite limited and you have to deal with players growth curves, the cap, other teams moves etc.... As I said before you can invest short-term for short-term return or long-term return or invest long-term for long-term or you can just ride it out collecting what comes: 2-3 tier FAs, lateral player movement and mid round picks.

The question I've been asking is; which of these senarios are we doing? And are there other possibilities that someone might see.

[Admin]

I don't wonder why and I have no problem with expectations. I also am aware of all the things that you mentioned. I also think the last part of your post is agreeing with me; "we've got Millsap and Korver and Teague who are all very good trade assets on very good contracts"

Good trade assets, but not guys that we'll win with now. Millsap's value will decline a lot after the deadline. You can' hide a plan too long. As you say it takes time and multiple moves to set it up. The reason you can't hide a plan is because over time the moves will indicate the direction. If Sap, JT, Korver are traded at top value, then I'll see a plan. A+B=C A=signing win now players: B=trade them at high value; C= improve the team.

To not move Sap this now would look like a guy that needs to make some money; so he buys something to add value to to flip for a profit but then falls in love with it and decides to keep it when he can't afford it.

Keeping Sap will mean that we didn't plan on flipping him or that Ferry fell in love with him and thought he could win with this team. He can't win with this team so he has to flip him.

Obtuse isn't a good choice of words; provocative is much more a propos

This is where you're veering off as you seem to think that Ferry's plan was to win now. It's completely obvious that we weren't trying to win this year once we realized we weren't getting CP3 and Dwight and Ferry has continued on adding talented players on easily tradeable contracts and those are assets. His young draft choices are assets, either for trade or to build our roster. But you've got to realize that we ARE NOT trying to win now. Ferry expressly stated that he's building something here and that's really the bottom line.

[Admin]

This should clear things up for you I hope...

Danny Ferry is out at Summer League in Las Vegas to watch the young Hawksas they try to impress Ferry, the front office, and the coaching staff. Ferry spoke with reporters on Monday night after the Hawks loss to the San Antonio Spurs, and he discussed the state of the Hawks roster, among other things.

Ferry talked about his thoughts on the young players and, as expected, he was cautiously optimistic on the rookies and the second year players.

"It's good to see our young players play. You see some good things, but you also see room for growth. You're talking about a group that has no corporate knowledge about how we're going to play or our system Bud's going to put in. They're all learning on the fly, and they're all working hard at it."

He said he felt John Jenkins and Mike Scott looked much more confident than a year ago, but they still had a lot of work to do in terms of learning the new system and becoming comfortable in it. He frequently said that there was "no corporate knowledge" among the rookies and second year players, meaning that they had to re-learn everything that they had in their first year with the team as far as playing in an offensive and defensive system.

When asked about the status of the roster building process, Ferry mentioned the Jeff Teague and Elton Brand signings as major steps towards rounding out the roster.

"Well, obviously, we're excited to have Jeff [Teague] back. We value him, as we said all along, and felt like he'd be an important part of our foundation moving forward. Today we also added Elton Brand. He fits the values we want to have in our players of being tough and physical and competitive. He brings us versatility in being able to play the five and four, he's probably more of a five now than a four at this point in his career, but he'll fit in very well with our group and add veteran leadership. We're still working, exploring all opportunities and avenues to get better, whether that's continuing in free agency, trade, whatever it is, but overall I feel good about how things have unfolded."

When asked about what positions the Hawks still wanted to add depth to, Ferry mentioned the need at two spots, adding another big man and a wing player.

"You look at our roster, and we probably need to add another big. We have decisions to make with Lucas [Nogueira] and Mike [Muscala] in that regard. Along with that, probably another wing would be an area that we may look at as an area to add. I feel like our roster has good flexibility in how it can play, but also in how we can build."

The decisions to be made on Nogueira and Muscala are whether to put them on the NBA roster, or to have them play overseas next year to continue developing, especially physically, where both have a ways to go in terms of adding strength to log solid minutes in the paint.

http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2013/7/16/4529822/danny-ferry-atlanta-hawks-nba-roster

[Guest]

There were many players better than Carroll moved and we had more money. At the time I watched players move and though to myself; damn, why didn't we try to add them instead of or with Carrol. More have moved since December. Who - name two beside Iggy

Do you think that Sap would have more trade value now or during the off-season as an expiring? It depends - if we trade Sap at the deadline to a team in the playoffs we get a lower draft pick, if we wait until draft time (Sap and our pick) it can be to a lottery team that has a young core looking to make the playoffs next season, instead of adding another young player

What's been shot down? Well, I'm not going to go back through most of the threads to cite instances. As I said, the reason I'm discussing these things in depth is because everytime that me or so else proposes something/anything there are posters who bring the can't trade Sap, can't trade the pick. So I ask how you do it without doing one or the other. Really just asking people to justify their positions a bit, instead of shooting down other people's ideas.

"Because there are too many scenarios - I don't care and it definitely does not bother me who throws out any scenarios, that's what the site is for - I comment as I see fit."

Good, we agree and please do. Yeah this is the perfect place to throw things up into the air and see what comes down. We might occasionally get something right. Just a little xtra fun while we watch our team's progress.

But, I don't agree that there are "too many senarios", the assets moved are variables but the possible paths to change are quite limited and you have to deal with players growth curves, the cap, other teams moves etc.... As I said before you can invest short-term for short-term return or long-term return or invest long-term for long-term or you can just ride it out collecting what comes: 2-3 tier FAs, lateral player movement and mid round picks.

The question I've been asking is; which of these senarios are we doing? And are there other possibilities that someone might see.

[tbhawksfan]

This should clear things up for you I hope...

Thanks for the article. I'd missed that one. Which brings me back to the Sap situation; is he going to be moved? Should he be?

We have a recent track record of either signing good players when we're not ready (JJ), keeping guys we shouldn't too long; basically tradin low or letting them go for space.

I'm firmly in the Ferry supporters. think he's going in the right direction and I think that direction is to flip these guys into what will turn out to be a total rebuild.

The debate is with some on this site that don't seem to be proponents of anything. As you've said, it will take moves to get us there. I hope moving Sap before the deadline is his first move towards rebuilding by selling high.

[Admin]

Thanks for the article. I'd missed that one. Which brings me back to the Sap situation; is he going to be moved? Should he be?

We have a recent track record of either signing good players when we're not ready (JJ), keeping guys we shouldn't too long; basically tradin low or letting them go for space.

I'm firmly in the Ferry supporters. think he's going in the right direction and I think that direction is to flip these guys into what will turn out to be a total rebuild.

The debate is with some on this site that don't seem to be proponents of anything. As you've said, it will take moves to get us there. I hope moving Sap before the deadline is his first move towards rebuilding by selling high.

I don't know what the plan with Millsap is but what I do know with absolute certainty is that Millsap is worth more today than he was when we signed him and that's a major plus for us if we do plan on trading him.

[Jody23]

Thanks for the article. I'd missed that one. Which brings me back to the Sap situation; is he going to be moved? Should he be? We have a recent track record of either signing good players when we're not ready (JJ), keeping guys we shouldn't too long; basically tradin low or letting them go for space. I'm firmly in the Ferry supporters. think he's going in the right direction and I think that direction is to flip these guys into what will turn out to be a total rebuild. The debate is with some on this site that don't seem to be proponents of anything. As you've said, it will take moves to get us there. I hope moving Sap before the deadline is his first move towards rebuilding by selling high.

As much as I love Sap, I would have to agree with your line of thinking. The question is, how valuable will Sap be come the deadline? I guess we'll know in a few weeks.

[Admin]

As much as I love Sap, I would have to agree with your line of thinking. The question is, how valuable will Sap be come the deadline? I guess we'll know in a few weeks.

Sap will have plenty of value in the offseason as well so there's no need to rush and trade him by the deadline unless we get an offer we can't refuse.