If one star would come to Atlanta then......

[Wretch]

What hoops are we jumping through? I guarantee you if I wanted to put in the effort I could prove that teams that suck and are in the lottery year after year have a hell of a lot more failure than they do success with their lottery picks.

So Garnett wasn't a star? Because the T-Wolves got crap for him with the best being Al only plays one end of the court Jefferson. Or how about Carmelo, he was traded for a bunch of spare parts. Going further back, how about the Hornets getting a young stud Peja for a guy who basically never played for the Pacers. Or the Nuggets getting Camby, Nene and Mark Jackson for McDice. I could go on and on but there are a ton of stars and borderline stars that are traded for spare parts.

Just off the top of my head...

If you're being honest about Jefferson and not using revisionist history, Jefferson was a promising young stud. He was a HSSR that slipped to ONE pick outside of the lottery. For an aging KG, it was a good deal at the time for both teams. This worked for the Celtics because they got more than just KG. They sold a lottery pick and went after another solid vet in Ray Allen.

We don't have a Pierce or an Allen, so the effect of bringing back an aging vet to this team would not be the same. Could we get a guy like that? Sure. I've already said that.

Teams do not give up stars for spare parts. They give up guys on the end of their deals in desperation to get something for them or they trade over the hill guys for the best they can get. Personally, I would not put much stock into either of those routes for us....because we would have to deal the assets you guys are so desperately guarding. Leaving us with a star on a short deal or an aging star...and either with no team to support him.

But it's going to cost us the assets you guys are holding onto. I doubt we can get a KG quality star for our future mid 1sts + anything outside of Horf/Sap/Teague.

[JTB]

You guys put way too much stock into mid-late 1st round draft picks. See...this is what I don't get.

People will freely admit that the lottery is crap-shoot and the odds are terrible at best at acquiring a franchise changer there...

Yet, despite the mountain of historical data to suggest otherwise, people are inclined to believe that we can expect the same caliber of player fishing in a much less potent pool of talent.

"That's not what we're saying at all. What we're saying is that you can get quality players, even borderline All Stars without using the lottery."

Problem is, with all of the borderline all stars and serviceable players....you will still not contend without a star/engine to power your team. You still have to get the star somehow...

"Trade those borderline star assets for the star, Wretch."

Yes, because people are beating down our door with offers for those kinds of players. We can do this song and dance all day. It isn't my contention that the serviceable parts, bargain players, and late picks are worthless. Only that it is beyond stupid to rely on late draft picks to acquire franchise changing talent. The priority for Atlanta should not be in acquiring serviceable parts - it has to be on getting the engine. The party doesn't start until we have that player.

This is the part you're missing: there are a MILLION-JILLION-FRILLION ways to get quality players. We can stock those guys up until the cows come home....and OHHHHH by the Holy Heet-Check Nimbers of Nique Magnifique...have we managed to wrangle up quality players in the 30 or so years I've watched this club. I'm not saying we should just abandon all other routes/quality of players. However, we're not talking about contending with this club until we're talking about an ENGINE/FRANCHISE QUALITY TALENT in a Hawks uniform.

And if you are talking about that kind of player, then we can cut the bullshit right here. Because my friends....my fellow Hawks fans...we have entered a very cut and dry, black and white conversation. People...there is a ****FINITE**** amount of NARROW paths to acquiring a bona fide star. If you're not giving up a lottery pick, a high potential young player (i.e. - former lottery pick), or another bona fide star...and if you're not playing the lottery...then man, you are talking about getting your franchise talent via two methods...

A DICEY GAMBLE OR GOOD OL' FASHIONED DUMB f***ing LUCK.

That...would be interesting and is quite telling if accurate. It is also the most encouraging thing I could possibly hear about Danny Ferry. It means he understands it. The tap dancing with bargain-bin drafting/trading/FAcy shopping is one thing...but that dude knows what it will really take to turn this franchise around.

I also know the player they are/would be targeting...and I know what people are going to/would say about him.

Trust me Im with you…I use to want to hold on to all of quality players but hell if we can package them to get a bonafide star than let it happen. But really whatever way we can get a bonafide star Im all for it…I also agree its easy to get quality players around a bonafide star.

[Wretch]

This is so silly to me. I have a question that will end all of this for me at least.......you Ferry critics if, Ferry was offered any of these scenarios do you really think he or the ASG would say no?

1. A chance at any of the current top 10 players?

2. Not a chance at the lottery, but after the lottery a top 5 pick?

3. A trade for any player that would be a step up from our current group w/ a reasonable contract?

I don't believe he would say no to any of these scenarios, so you know what do you guys want from him? He is not giving away players for nothing. He can't make deals with himself. We aren't even sure what teams are going to miss the playoffs at this point except for a horrid few and they aren't trading those picks because they are tanking! This is insanity to me lol

Sorry, I didn't see this bouncing back and forth. I don't like typing...I'm actually a background kind of poster. I just see things in black and white and when people try to paint a grey picture of the same conversation, I like to bring the conversation to one side or the other. It also irks me to have these same conversations over and over again...

But let's see about these questions you ask:

1) I'm not a Ferry critic. You are making an assumption. What I want to explain here that I am traditionally a neutral poster and I give a GM many years before I make a final judgement. I also want to reference how I remained on the fence for BK while people were calling for his head...but that is going to add words to the post...and in turn, you'll say, "You type too much." All you are hearing is that "Wretch hates Ferry."

What you're not hearing is the valid criticism...that you need an engine before you can compete and it's hard to get one without giving up an engine, lottery picks, or luring a marquee free agent. We don't have an engine to offer. We don't have lottery picks (and aren't playing for them). No further comment about FAcy.

Is there a simpler way to say that? Yes. But then we get to trade posts for pages just for me to explain all of that (all the while other people jumping in). I like to just present it in black and white up front to end the point.

2) Of course he wouldn't turn down a later than top 5 pick in the lottery. It will cost Al Horford though (or Milsap+) Which puts us right in the middle of rebuilding.

3) How do you get this player... See there's a pattern here. You guys want the lottery pick. You want the star player. You want a top 10 guy...but you're not giving a viable method for getting one or you are ignoring what's left over after we do so.

The problem is not arguing fantasy. I simply do not see a way to get this player that you guys know we need to have...without bombing the core of this team and/or taking a gamble. The only criticisms I have of Ferry are...

As a GM I would not discount ANY method of player acquisition - especially not the most POTENT pool in the draft and I would not sacrifice the chance to obtain lottery ASSETS (not necessarily the players) simply to remain competitive. I think those are both valid criticisms. Especially while I concede that this is a waiting game...and we will see what he does with these "assets" we do have.

[Wretch]

What hoops are we jumping through? I guarantee you if I wanted to put in the effort I could prove that teams that suck and are in the lottery year after year have a hell of a lot more failure than they do success with their lottery picks.

So Garnett wasn't a star? Because the T-Wolves got crap for him with the best being Al only plays one end of the court Jefferson. Or how about Carmelo, he was traded for a bunch of spare parts. Going further back, how about the Hornets getting a young stud Peja for a guy who basically never played for the Pacers. Or the Nuggets getting Camby, Nene and Mark Jackson for McDice. I could go on and on but there are a ton of stars and borderline stars that are traded for spare parts.

Off the top of my head again after replying to something else I missed...

Carmelo on the end of this deal, forcing a trade to NY WHERE HE WANTED TO GO held Denver hostage, threatening to leave for nothing... Let's first forget the leverage the Knicks had in making that deal happen...and put ourselves in this position - where players FORCE their teams to trade to us, because they WANT TO be here. And let's also forget the former lottery pick that the Knicks tossed into the deal. Call him a scrub, but this is what gets the ink on the papers time and time again - potential or established potency. Not established solid throw-ins.

Peja has always been a good player and a quality compliment - not an engine. We don't need a quality compliment. We got that in Milsap with very little trouble...and we could get another one. We've been able to do that year after year. It's not going to put us over. It's going to make us good enough.

Lemme research the McDyess deal...as my memory is fuzzy.

[Admin]

Just off the top of my head...

If you're being honest about Jefferson and not using revisionist history, Jefferson was a promising young stud. He was a HSSR that slipped to ONE pick outside of the lottery. For an aging KG, it was a good deal at the time for both teams. This worked for the Celtics because they got more than just KG. They sold a lottery pick and went after another solid vet in Ray Allen.

We don't have a Pierce or an Allen, so the effect of bringing back an aging vet to this team would not be the same. Could we get a guy like that? Sure. I've already said that.

But it's going to cost us the assets you guys are holding onto. I doubt we can get a KG quality star for our future mid 1sts + anything outside of Horf/Sap/Teague.

Wow I'm revisionist but you call a 31 year old KG "aging"? He was no spring chicken but he was still a 23/13 player who played excellent defense. The Celtics couldn't wait to unload Jefferson because they knew he was shit defensively.

The point still stands that stars of teams are traded all the time and it's usually not for another star.

[Wretch]

Or the Nuggets getting Camby, Nene and Mark Jackson for McDice. I could go on and on but there are a ton of stars and borderline stars that are traded for spare parts.

Knicks used a lottery pick to trade for an All Star with a question mark.

I think that would be one of two things...the equivalent of trading Horford for a lottery pick (which you are against) or trading a lottery pick (which we don't have) for a former All-Star with a question mark.

[Admin]

Off the top of my head again after replying to something else I missed...

Carmelo on the end of this deal, forcing a trade to NY WHERE HE WANTED TO GO held Denver hostage, threatening to leave for nothing... Let's first forget the leverage the Knicks had in making that deal happen...and put ourselves in this position - where players FORCE their teams to trade to us, because they WANT TO be here. And let's also forget the former lottery pick that the Knicks tossed into the deal. Call him a scrub, but this is what gets the ink on the papers time and time again - potential or established potency. Not established solid throw-ins.

Peja has always been a good player and a quality compliment - not an engine. We don't need a quality compliment. We got that in Milsap with very little trouble...and we could get another one. We've been able to do that year after year. It's not going to put us over. It's going to make us good enough.

Lemme research the McDyess deal...as my memory is fuzzy.

Wretch the point is that we can acquire some damn good players to build a championship squad without having to tank into the upper lottery where the risk is just as high as the reward, if not greater. Look no further than our disastrous pick after pick in the upper lottery. That's all the history I need to know as to what I want us to do in the future. Play competitive basketball, make smart free agent signings and trades and draft the best player we can with the picks that we do have.

[Wretch]

Wow I'm revisionist but you call a 31 year old KG "aging"? He was no spring chicken but he was still a 20/10 player who played excellent defense. The Celtics couldn't wait to unload Jefferson because they knew he was shit defensively.

The point still stands that stars of teams are traded all the time and it's usually not for another star.

When exactly does a star player start to decline and when exactly is his peak?

For a PF?

40? Certainly before that.

37? Before that.

35...ish? Eh....maybe around there. If you get a 31 year old PF, you've got about 3-4 years of dominance in the tank. He was not an OLD vet, but he was coming down off his prime and aging. He came into Boston on the tail end of his prime for a young player with a lot of potential. Boston gave up the future for the here and now and it paid off...because they had Pierce and they dealt a lottery pick for another star. We don't have that pick. We don't have a Pierce. The best we could do applying that scenario to us is give up a Horf/Sap for a guy with 3-4 years left in his tank. I think that puts us back at square one...maybe a little better off.

[Wretch]

Wretch the point is that we can acquire some damn good players to build a championship squad without having to tank into the upper lottery where the risk is just as high as the reward, if not greater. Look no further than our disastrous pick after pick in the upper lottery. That's all the history I need to know as to what I want us to do in the future. Play competitive basketball, make smart free agent signings and trades and draft the best player we can with the picks that we do have.

I don't think the part in bold can be done. History does not really support what you're saying. It doesn't show teams building exclusively through the draft lottery getting to the promised land, but it does show those teams using it to their advantage to get there. I also don't think you can call it a failure when you have an idiot making the draft choices....

I mean, you're just ignoring the fact that we're sitting there on a dozen high flying forwards, the opportunity to sign a DAMN GOOD SG, and the franchise PG staring you in the face. TWO of them....one of them YOU WANTED to pick dude!

You're also ignoring time and time again...teams dealing these kinds of picks/players for stars... Ray Allen, Carmelo, Chris Paul, McDyess (using your own example), Deron Williams, Harden...and that's just a random group of guys off the top of my head. Just ignore the SOLID and irrefutable evidence that you can use those picks for those kinds of players...

[Wretch]

Dammit...ya'll MnF'rs have sucked me into a merry-go-round! I'm not checking this thread anymore! I have burned the whole damn day and haven't shot a single damn alien scumbag. Missed almost all of the Hawks game talking about the Hawks too...lol. How silly is that.........

[Jody23]

Regarding our times in the lottery, it actually was a smart stragety. What was dumb was Knight using those picks to try to create some new definition of basketball with all 6'8 players. He was even arrogant about how he was right and knew it would work. Does anybody think if Ferry and co were making those picks that he tries to get cute like Knight did? I don't.

[JTB]

Al I want ferry to so at this point is got bud some talent that he can actually develop.

[Admin]

Wretch we get it you and a few others here want to make us the next Charlotte, Cleveland or Sacramento. But some of us just aren't comfortable with that. And I know I know someone is gonna bring up OKC as the shining example of living high off the lottery but they're the exception, just as the Pacers are the exception at the other end of the debate. How about we just sit back and give Ferry 3 full years to see what his plan is? Is that too much to ask?

[Admin]

Al I want ferry to so at this point is got bud some talent that he can actually develop.

Like Mack, Schröder, Bebe (next year), Jenkins, Cunningham, Scott? That's actually quite a bit of young talent that Ferry has brought in in just over 1.5 years.

[Admin]

Regarding our times in the lottery, it actually was a smart stragety. What was dumb was Knight using those picks to try to create some new definition of basketball with all 6'8 players. He was even arrogant about how he was right and knew it would work. Does anybody think if Ferry and co were making those picks that he tries to get cute like Knight did? I don't.

That excuse works for explaining the teams failure but we took those guys where they were projected to go. Marvin was "James Worthy with a jump shot" and Shellhead was the next Elton Brand and Childress was supposed to be able to do it all and Acie was supposed to finally be that missing link PG for us after missing out in 2005. It's not like BK was drafting guys who were projected to go much later, they just ended up being duds. Heck what if there's another draft like 2013 where the top pick may end up as the biggest bust ever and that year is the year we've gotten picks for our trades of Al and Millsap and Teague. Then what? Yeah we're screwed as we have turds for young players and nothing else but next years lottery to hope for. No thanks I'm not looking to go back to 2003 as we've been there and lived through that hell once already.

Dammit...ya'll MnF'rs have sucked me into a merry-go-round! I'm not checking this thread anymore! I have burned the whole damn day and haven't shot a single damn alien scumbag. Missed almost all of the Hawks game talking about the Hawks too...lol. How silly is that.........

This made the thread worth it!

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Wow I'm revisionist but you call a 31 year old KG "aging"? He was no spring chicken but he was still a 23/13 player who played excellent defense. The Celtics couldn't wait to unload Jefferson because they knew he was shit defensively.

The point still stands that stars of teams are traded all the time and it's usually not for another star.

LOL @ Dol . . . come on man.

Jefferson was a key element in that trade. They HAD to give Minny SOMETHING, in order to get KG to Boston. This wasn't a Joe Johnson situation, in which Minnesota was willing to accept 5 dead flies and a swapped draft pick in exchange for trading KG. They wanted an asset.

The only problem with Jefferson, is that while he is a very good offensive player, he isn't an "engine" type of a player.

We all know what we need around here. And it will probably take a trade of 2 of our top 3 players to get it . . or at least a trade of 1 of our top 2. That's just reality right there.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

It's strange but no matter what plan you propose there is a posse here that thinks it's their role to shoot it down. It was the same 2-3 years ago. I get the impression that the only thing that they're interested in is cheer-leading. They're so politically correct that the only thing they get behind is follow the leader. Personally, the only reason I come here is to see if anything has happened to improve the Hawks chances. Occasionally, I amuse myself playing what if and here comes the posse. Always the same people shooting down any proposition made. Are they on the ASG payroll or are they so used to playing follow the leader that that's all they know how to do or tolerate. Well it's not working (ASG). The Hawks are one of the most pitiful organizations in the NBA. Our numbers ( Hawks rank 27th in NBA in Team Value ) clearly show that we are at the bottom of the heap with teams from much smaller markets. The Hawks are habitually in this bottom of the NBA ranking, but no, don't make moves, don't think your better than Ferry, just shut it and clap

(( clap . . . clap . . . clap ))

As I tell people on here and especially on other sites, the rest of the league isn't going to wait for the Hawks to decide what they want to do in the future. They're making their future moves NOW.

Acting like the Hawks can build a winner with a bunch of 5 - 8 million a year type players, is wishful thinking. We have to find a franchise changing player somehow, some way.

I'm definitely as close to anti-Ferry as they come, because I think he simply straddles the fence. I would almost bet that as the trade deadline approaches, he will not make a move. He'll MIGHT try to move a guy like Lou Williams, but with the way Lou is playing these days, he may not get much for him. So instead of trading someone else, he'll hold onto them.

That Forbes article really tells the story about our franchise. I think the real goal is to simply keep this franchise at playoff level, no matter if it's the top seed . . or the 8th seed. Making the playoffs and getting a little extra money, is all that matters.

It would take for this squad to completely fall apart, for them to consider trading some of the major assets we have.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Like Mack, Schröder, Bebe (next year), Jenkins, Cunningham, Scott? That's actually quite a bit of young talent that Ferry has brought in in just over 1.5 years.

Dol . . that's a pipe dream to bank on those guys. Bebe has knee problems. Jenkins has back problems. Poor Dennis can't even crack the rotation, after being basically handed the backup PG spot. Mack is solid, but won't be much more than what he is right now. Mike Scott is a pure scorer . . in the mold of an Al Harrington. He's Al Harrington at best.

None of those guys have any chance of being "that guy". We have to acquire "that guy" by at least next summer, or we may be forced to bust the entire team down anyway.

I'm of the belief that Horford isn't going to stick around here if this team hasn't significantly improved. And especially if we're still forcing him to play center for most of his minutes.

[tbhawksfan]

If it's not complicated, why is it so incredibly difficult to see positive results out of the teams that take this route?

Because the NBA is a rigged, elitist micro-society where the same teams are at the top of the standings each year, the FA, go to those teams because that's where the money and the chance to win is. In the last 25 or so years there has been very little variation of this stratification.

[Jody23]

That excuse works for explaining the teams failure but we took those guys where they were projected to go. Marvin was "James Worthy with a jump shot" and Shellhead was the next Elton Brand and Childress was supposed to be able to do it all and Acie was supposed to finally be that missing link PG for us after missing out in 2005. It's not like BK was drafting guys who were projected to go much later, they just ended up being duds. Heck what if there's another draft like 2013 where the top pick may end up as the biggest bust ever and that year is the year we've gotten picks for our trades of Al and Millsap and Teague. Then what? Yeah we're screwed as we have turds for young players and nothing else but next years lottery to hope for. No thanks I'm not looking to go back to 2003 as we've been there and lived through that hell once already. This made the thread worth it!

What excuse? That's not an excuse, it's fact. Knight picked guys that didn't make basketball sense and he DID pick Sheldon and Childress much higher than they were projected. The main pieces needed to make us contenders was available and Knight deliberately passed on it. What competent talent evaluator, knowing we had 100 SFs and needed a point guard, watches Paul and Marvin up close and comes away thinking Marvin is the best choice? This guy watched Childress work out with Deng and Iggy and picked long armed Childress because of some foolish objective and sat there and boasted about it being a good pick because they both had afros. And whoever compared Sheldon to Elton Brand? The only thing they had in common was Duke. It was well known that both Sheldon and Childress were picked higher than they were slated.And I get the issue with losing. No one likes it. Even the "pro-tankers" don't like it. But they realize that we may have to take a step back (which we won't) to get the main pieces we need. Is it a guarantee? Of course not. But, we've been drafting in the same area the Pacers have been for several years now and instead of becoming the Pacers, we've remained the Atlanta Hawks.