If one star would come to Atlanta then......

[Admin]

That's another thing people do...they assume that because you say that a superstar is vital and the key to success, that you also believe the superstar is the be all/end all.

...and I'm sitting here a living contradiction in that those kinds of players are not my favorite. I love role players. Specifically, big defensive, brutish PF's. I just know what's going to happen in the big games (and big possessions) when you need a bucket.

So what's your plan then? Who's your ideal team of existing NBA players that will get us a championship? Something realistic as I'd love to see what your plan is.

[HawkItus]

You know what is likely going to happen with Horf in 2 years? If we want him to stay he will get paid a great salary and stay with the Hawks. The history of this situation tells us this.

[Admin]

You know what is likely going to happen with Horf in 2 years? If we want him to stay he will get paid a great salary and stay with the Hawks. The history of this situation tells us this.

I doubt he'll get paid that much. 2 seasons missed due to major injuries and he'll be what 30 then? If he gets more than the 12 million he's making now I'd be shocked.

[Jody23]

I talked with one of my old sources today and he shared a nugget: There is in fact one superstar that Ferry is sitting on if the team he is on now decides that they can't resign him. If a trade happened it would be in the offseason after that team tried to talk him into staying. That guy is one of my favorite players. I think it would probably split the board in half if we got him because I know some here don't consider him a superstar. But if we could somehow get him and get him to stay here...wow. I'd be so happy I would even break my vow to go pay to see the Hawks and give A$G money again.

Mmm hmmm. I believe I know who this is also and I have my doubts that he would stay in Atlanta after he becomes a free agent. Either way, I suspected Ferry was trying to pull a Harden. The problem is I don't know that we have the assets to get him. Sap will only have one year left on his deal, Horf will be coming off his second major injury, Teague is not even close to being a LEGIT all star and is actually headed toward "overpaid" status and our first round pick will be in the middle at BEST. Definitely below 15-17.

[Jody23]

You know what is likely going to happen with Horf in 2 years? If we want him to stay he will get paid a great salary and stay with the Hawks. The history of this situation tells us this.

I actually see Horford bolting to go win a title, even if he has to take less money. Horf is a champ and the Hawks have done nothing serious to show their committment to acheiving elite status. And like or not, agree with him or not, I think Horf will have had it with the Hawks not listening to him and forcing him to play out of position.

[Wretch]

So what's your plan then? Who's your ideal team of existing NBA players that will get us a championship? Something realistic as I'd love to see what your plan is.

Step one...deal away all players we have and get a bunch of lottery picks.

Step two...use lottery picks to draft Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen

Step three...???

Step four...Championship

:D

In all seriousness, there is no point in detailing what I would do. You already know and I've said it a million times. I'd rebuild. Wouldn't even hesitate. It's not a very difficult concept to grasp, it's not complicated, and it's not uncommon. I'd just rebuild the team.

I will say this, we will see in a few years which was the better path to take. For the record, I'd be willing to wait until the end of this offseason before pulling the plug, but I wouldn't go into 2014/15 looking much the same while riding Sap's FAcy.

You know what is likely going to happen with Horf in 2 years? If we want him to stay he will get paid a great salary and stay with the Hawks. The history of this situation tells us this.

If we can get another impact player here, sure. We might have a chance to keep him. But if you're talking quality players and serviceable big man...then no, that will not get it done. If it doesn't happen next off season, Horford is gone...and I will bet some crow on that too. In light of that, I would not hesitate to pull the trigger on a deal for him. This team, as is, isn't contending with or without him and his value is high.

[tbhawksfan]

It's strange but no matter what plan you propose there is a posse here that thinks it's their role to shoot it down. It was the same 2-3 years ago. I get the impression that the only thing that they're interested in is cheer-leading. They're so politically correct that the only thing they get behind is follow the leader. Personally, the only reason I come here is to see if anything has happened to improve the Hawks chances. Occasionally, I amuse myself playing what if and here comes the posse. Always the same people shooting down any proposition made. Are they on the ASG payroll or are they so used to playing follow the leader that that's all they know how to do or tolerate.Well it's not working (ASG). The Hawks are one of the most pitiful organizations in the NBA. Our numbers ( Hawks rank 27th in NBA in Team Value ) clearly show that we are at the bottom of the heap with teams from much smaller markets. The Hawks are habitually in this bottom of the NBA ranking, but no, don't make moves, don't think your better than Ferry, just shut it and clap

[tbhawksfan]

Step one...deal away all players we have and get a bunch of lottery picks.Step two...use lottery picks to draft Michael Jordan and Scottie PippenStep three...???Step four...Championship :D In all seriousness, there is no point in detailing what I would do. You already know and I've said it a million times. I'd rebuild. Wouldn't even hesitate. It's not a very difficult concept to grasp, it's not complicated, and it's not uncommon. I'd just rebuild the team. I will say this, we will see in a few years which was the better path to take. For the record, I'd be willing to wait until the end of this offseason before pulling the plug, but I wouldn't go into 2014/15 looking much the same while riding Sap's FAcy. If we can get another impact player here, sure. We might have a chance to keep him. But if you're talking quality players and serviceable big man...then no, that will not get it done. If it doesn't happen next off season, Horford is gone...and I will bet some crow on that too. In light of that, I would not hesitate to pull the trigger on a deal for him. This team, as is, isn't contending with or without him and his value is high.

Step 3: add a couple FA role playersStep 4: Championship

[HawkItus]

This is so silly to me. I have a question that will end all of this for me at least.......you Ferry critics if, Ferry was offered any of these scenarios do you really think he or the ASG would say no?

1. A chance at any of the current top 10 players?

2. Not a chance at the lottery, but after the lottery a top 5 pick?

3. A trade for any player that would be a step up from our current group w/ a reasonable contract?

I don't believe he would say no to any of these scenarios, so you know what do you guys want from him? He is not giving away players for nothing. He can't make deals with himself. We aren't even sure what teams are going to miss the playoffs at this point except for a horrid few and they aren't trading those picks because they are tanking! This is insanity to me lol

[Wretch]

I honestly don't know why we're still talking about tanking. There is no way Ferry tanks. None. He'll keep us a playoff team with a good brand of basketball in the hopes he could either sign a star as a FA or trade for one and convince them to stay here as a building block.

So what's your plan then? Who's your ideal team of existing NBA players that will get us a championship? Something realistic as I'd love to see what your plan is.

And let me use Soth's post to expound on that and give you my train of thought (which I have already done a dozen times):

We're not tanking. We need a star, but we're not tanking. Much as anyone wants to doubt the importance of a star, even Danny Ferry knows that we need an engine to drive this thing. But we're not tanking...so that means we are either...

a) trading into the lottery for a shot at a star

b) trading something for said star

c) fishing for a gem in the mid-late 1st round of the draft (because we are not tanking!)

or d) betting it on a marquee free agent acquisition

...or some combination thereof. Nobody on this board is holding their breath for a marquee free agent. I mean, we had the perfect storm with CP3 and D12...and really it doesn't GET any more perfect than that. And we couldn't get either. The other free agent option is a Joe Johnson/James Hardin scenario...whereby we overpay for an unproven. Breaking this down (for it to work)...

a) disgruntled team doesn't match

b) disgruntled player wants to come here

c) risk overpaying

I don't see a huge risk in that unless the player is a complete bomb - which is not likely the case given you will have had 4-5 years to evaluate him on another team. But we will handicap our flexibility by dumping money onto him. Personally, I don't see how this is any less of a gamble on a low salaried/high potential lottery pick. The only potential sticking factor here is that you'll have to lose to get said lottery pick...which you guys need to admit is the real problem you have and nothing else.

So, given that we're not going to be losing/tanking...we're looking at a pick in the teens. You say these lottery picks are worthless...but the return rate (talking overall franchise impact here) from picks 1-14 is decidedly better than the rest of the 1st and 2nd round put together. If you think it's a laughable longshot to fish out a game changer in the lottery...what madness must be swirling in your head to think you can get it done anywhere else? All I see out of there is at best supporting player around the 3rd or 4th tier.

So...betting on free agency? No. Mid-late 1st rounders? No. Harden/JJ young and unproven...? It's a gamble...that will cost a lot more financially. I can't say that I would try to rebuild a team with these three avenues as my focus. What's left is trades.

Superstar trade...

JJ/Harden type trade...

Diamond in the rough trade...

Nobody is giving up a superstar for spare parts. You could get a guy on the last leg of his deal for a bargain...but again, you're talking about a gamble. You don't want to give up everything for nothing...and that's what can happen when you give up solid assets for a guy that can go anywhere in the off-season. BTW, how is it acceptable to risk assets on a 1 year rental...but not acceptable to risk assets on young players with potential that will be assets for a LONG time?

Again, given the choice...I wouldn't risk it. Especially not with Atlanta's free agent history, OUR LUCK, and the trend of these superstars to force their way onto super teams.

What does that leave me with? JJ/Hardin disgruntled/unproven guy? Again...risk/reward is greater to me (financially) and you keep yourself out of the lottery (losing opportunity there). He also has to want to be here (SnT). Not looking promising. All that's left is the diamond in the rough type of deal...the Mookie/Rumeal Robinson type of steal...but how selective is our preference thinking that this is an easier scenario to profit from than the lottery? Again...it's all about the losing isn't it?

The only viable option on this route to me is trading into the late lottery (ala Kobe Bryan/Divac or targeting a Paul George who might fall late). However, you're still going to have to give up a Sap or Teague to do it though...and again I have to ask. Why would that be acceptable, but dealing for a higher pick (with Horford for example) is not?

Really...I just did all that and it comes back to the same point I made earlier...what I would actually do. I don't see a method to take this team to contender status with scraps and late picks - especially not before 2016 when Horford is not obligated to us.

No, rather than do all of that damn tap dancing...I'd just rebuild it and get my own damn high potential picks/players to build with or deal later.

(End recap of a summer's worth of merry-go-rounds...)

[tbhawksfan]

Wretched: Agree with your analysis and your conclusion.

[JTB]

And let me use Soth's post to expound on that and give you my train of thought (which I have already done a dozen times): We're not tanking. We need a star, but we're not tanking. Much as anyone wants to doubt the importance of a star, even Danny Ferry knows that we need an engine to drive this thing. But we're not tanking...so that means we are either... a) trading into the lottery for a shot at a starb) trading something for said starc) fishing for a gem in the mid-late 1st round of the draft (because we are not tanking!)or d) betting it on a marquee free agent acquisition ...or some combination thereof. Nobody on this board is holding their breath for a marquee free agent. I mean, we had the perfect storm with CP3 and D12...and really it doesn't GET any more perfect than that. And we couldn't get either. The other free agent option is a Joe Johnson/James Hardin scenario...whereby we overpay for an unproven. Breaking this down (for it to work)... a) disgruntled team doesn't matchb) disgruntled player wants to come herec) risk overpaying I don't see a huge risk in that unless the player is a complete bomb - which is not likely the case given you will have had 4-5 years to evaluate him on another team. But we will handicap our flexibility by dumping money onto him. Personally, I don't see how this is any less of a gamble on a low salaried/high potential lottery pick. The only potential sticking factor here is that you'll have to lose to get said lottery pick...which you guys need to admit is the real problem you have and nothing else. So, given that we're not going to be losing/tanking...we're looking at a pick in the teens. You say these lottery picks are worthless...but the return rate (talking overall franchise impact here) from picks 1-14 is decidedly better than the rest of the 1st and 2nd round put together. If you think it's a laughable longshot to fish out a game changer in the lottery...what madness must be swirling in your head to think you can get it done anywhere else? All I see out of there is at best supporting player around the 3rd or 4th tier. So...betting on free agency? No. Mid-late 1st rounders? No. Harden/JJ young and unproven...? It's a gamble...that will cost a lot more financially. I can't say that I would try to rebuild a team with these three avenues as my focus. What's left is trades. Superstar trade...JJ/Harden type trade...Diamond in the rough trade... Nobody is giving up a superstar for spare parts. You could get a guy on the last leg of his deal for a bargain...but again, you're talking about a gamble. You don't want to give up everything for nothing...and that's what can happen when you give up solid assets for a guy that can go anywhere in the off-season. BTW, how is it acceptable to risk assets on a 1 year rental...but not acceptable to risk assets on young players with potential that will be assets for a LONG time? Again, given the choice...I wouldn't risk it. Especially not with Atlanta's free agent history, OUR LUCK, and the trend of these superstars to force their way onto super teams. What does that leave me with? JJ/Hardin disgruntled/unproven guy? Again...risk/reward is greater to me (financially) and you keep yourself out of the lottery (losing opportunity there). He also has to want to be here (SnT). Not looking promising. All that's left is the diamond in the rough type of deal...the Mookie/Rumeal Robinson type of steal...but how selective is our preference thinking that this is an easier scenario to profit from than the lottery? Again...it's all about the losing isn't it? The only viable option on this route to me is trading into the late lottery (ala Kobe Bryan/Divac or targeting a Paul George who might fall late). However, you're still going to have to give up a Sap or Teague to do it though...and again I have to ask. Why would that be acceptable, but dealing for a higher pick (with Horford for example) is not? Really...I just did all that and it comes back to the same point I made earlier...what I would actually do. I don't see a method to take this team to contender status with scraps and late picks - especially not before 2016 when Horford is not obligated to us. No, rather than do all of that damn tap dancing...I'd just rebuild it and get my own damn high potential picks/players to build with or deal later.(End recap of a summer's worth of merry-go-rounds...)

Well....that pretty much sums it up! So what did we learn?1.this current hawks team other than sap and horford has hit their ceiling and at this point they are damn near worthless 2.unless we are willing to trade away our assets we will stay mediocre.3.have pity on sap and horford...it's a damn damn shame that they are wasting their time here in Atlanta.4. There's not as many options as we would like to think and if there were ferry would have taken them by now....(ok I can agree with that)Atleast that's what I took from it. With that said I'm all for ferry trading for players currently in the nba with all star to star potential...ya know guys like waiters, Evan turner, etcetera....etcetera.

[Sothron]

Wretch, they have a guy that they are playing the waiting game on. I don't know if it is a good strategy or not but if and I stress IF it happened we would have a superstar on the team. The 64,000 question then would be if we could convince him to stay and not leave as a free agent.

[Admin]

Step one...deal away all players we have and get a bunch of lottery picks.

Step two...use lottery picks to draft Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen

Step three...???

Step four...Championship

In all seriousness, there is no point in detailing what I would do. You already know and I've said it a million times. I'd rebuild. Wouldn't even hesitate. It's not a very difficult concept to grasp, it's not complicated, and it's not uncommon. I'd just rebuild the team.

I will say this, we will see in a few years which was the better path to take. For the record, I'd be willing to wait until the end of this offseason before pulling the plug, but I wouldn't go into 2014/15 looking much the same while riding Sap's FAcy.

If we can get another impact player here, sure. We might have a chance to keep him. But if you're talking quality players and serviceable big man...then no, that will not get it done. If it doesn't happen next off season, Horford is gone...and I will bet some crow on that too. In light of that, I would not hesitate to pull the trigger on a deal for him. This team, as is, isn't contending with or without him and his value is high.

If it's not complicated, why is it so incredibly difficult to see positive results out of the teams that take this route?

[Admin]

And let me use Soth's post to expound on that and give you my train of thought (which I have already done a dozen times):

We're not tanking. We need a star, but we're not tanking. Much as anyone wants to doubt the importance of a star, even Danny Ferry knows that we need an engine to drive this thing. But we're not tanking...so that means we are either...

a) trading into the lottery for a shot at a star

b) trading something for said star

c) fishing for a gem in the mid-late 1st round of the draft (because we are not tanking!)

or d) betting it on a marquee free agent acquisition

...or some combination thereof. Nobody on this board is holding their breath for a marquee free agent. I mean, we had the perfect storm with CP3 and D12...and really it doesn't GET any more perfect than that. And we couldn't get either. The other free agent option is a Joe Johnson/James Hardin scenario...whereby we overpay for an unproven. Breaking this down (for it to work)...

a) disgruntled team doesn't match

b) disgruntled player wants to come here

c) risk overpaying

I don't see a huge risk in that unless the player is a complete bomb - which is not likely the case given you will have had 4-5 years to evaluate him on another team. But we will handicap our flexibility by dumping money onto him. Personally, I don't see how this is any less of a gamble on a low salaried/high potential lottery pick. The only potential sticking factor here is that you'll have to lose to get said lottery pick...which you guys need to admit is the real problem you have and nothing else.

So, given that we're not going to be losing/tanking...we're looking at a pick in the teens. You say these lottery picks are worthless...but the return rate (talking overall franchise impact here) from picks 1-14 is decidedly better than the rest of the 1st and 2nd round put together. If you think it's a laughable longshot to fish out a game changer in the lottery...what madness must be swirling in your head to think you can get it done anywhere else? All I see out of there is at best supporting player around the 3rd or 4th tier.

So...betting on free agency? No. Mid-late 1st rounders? No. Harden/JJ young and unproven...? It's a gamble...that will cost a lot more financially. I can't say that I would try to rebuild a team with these three avenues as my focus. What's left is trades.

Superstar trade...

JJ/Harden type trade...

Diamond in the rough trade...

Nobody is giving up a superstar for spare parts. You could get a guy on the last leg of his deal for a bargain...but again, you're talking about a gamble. You don't want to give up everything for nothing...and that's what can happen when you give up solid assets for a guy that can go anywhere in the off-season. BTW, how is it acceptable to risk assets on a 1 year rental...but not acceptable to risk assets on young players with potential that will be assets for a LONG time?

Again, given the choice...I wouldn't risk it. Especially not with Atlanta's free agent history, OUR LUCK, and the trend of these superstars to force their way onto super teams.

What does that leave me with? JJ/Hardin disgruntled/unproven guy? Again...risk/reward is greater to me (financially) and you keep yourself out of the lottery (losing opportunity there). He also has to want to be here (SnT). Not looking promising. All that's left is the diamond in the rough type of deal...the Mookie/Rumeal Robinson type of steal...but how selective is our preference thinking that this is an easier scenario to profit from than the lottery? Again...it's all about the losing isn't it?

The only viable option on this route to me is trading into the late lottery (ala Kobe Bryan/Divac or targeting a Paul George who might fall late). However, you're still going to have to give up a Sap or Teague to do it though...and again I have to ask. Why would that be acceptable, but dealing for a higher pick (with Horford for example) is not?

Really...I just did all that and it comes back to the same point I made earlier...what I would actually do. I don't see a method to take this team to contender status with scraps and late picks - especially not before 2016 when Horford is not obligated to us.

No, rather than do all of that damn tap dancing...I'd just rebuild it and get my own damn high potential picks/players to build with or deal later.

(End recap of a summer's worth of merry-go-rounds...)

No team is giving up a superstar for spare parts? There's plenty of examples of teams getting rid of superstar players for spare parts and we all go wow I can't believe they didn't get more for hiim.

As for your lottery hopes all I can say is Marvin, Horford, Sheldon, Childress and Law. Every one of them were among your premium picks and ONLY 1 of them turned out to be a good player. The rest were all varying degrees of awful. History has shown us that this is not a fool proof plan, no matter how good you think the players may be they are more likely to be bad than they are to be good.

[Wretch]

Well....that pretty much sums it up! So what did we learn?

1.this current hawks team other than sap and horford has hit their ceiling and at this point they are damn near worthless

2.unless we are willing to trade away our assets we will stay mediocre.

3.have pity on sap and horford...it's a damn damn shame that they are wasting their time here in Atlanta.

4. There's not as many options as we would like to think and if there were ferry would have taken them by now....(ok I can agree with that)

Atleast that's what I took from it. With that said I'm all for ferry trading for players currently in the nba with all star to star potential...ya know guys like waiters, Evan turner, etcetera....etcetera.

You guys put way too much stock into mid-late 1st round draft picks. See...this is what I don't get.

People will freely admit that the lottery is crap-shoot and the odds are terrible at best at acquiring a franchise changer there...

Yet, despite the mountain of historical data to suggest otherwise, people are inclined to believe that we can expect the same caliber of player fishing in a much less potent pool of talent.

"That's not what we're saying at all. What we're saying is that you can get quality players, even borderline All Stars without using the lottery."

Problem is, with all of the borderline all stars and serviceable players....you will still not contend without a star/engine to power your team. You still have to get the star somehow...

"Trade those borderline star assets for the star, Wretch."

Yes, because people are beating down our door with offers for those kinds of players. We can do this song and dance all day. It isn't my contention that the serviceable parts, bargain players, and late picks are worthless. Only that it is beyond stupid to rely on late draft picks to acquire franchise changing talent. The priority for Atlanta should not be in acquiring serviceable parts - it has to be on getting the engine. The party doesn't start until we have that player.

This is the part you're missing: there are a MILLION-JILLION-FRILLION ways to get quality players. We can stock those guys up until the cows come home....and OHHHHH by the Holy Heet-Check Nimbers of Nique Magnifique...have we managed to wrangle up quality players in the 30 or so years I've watched this club. I'm not saying we should just abandon all other routes/quality of players. However, we're not talking about contending with this club until we're talking about an ENGINE/FRANCHISE QUALITY TALENT in a Hawks uniform.

And if you are talking about that kind of player, then we can cut the bullshit right here. Because my friends....my fellow Hawks fans...we have entered a very cut and dry, black and white conversation. People...there is a ****FINITE**** amount of NARROW paths to acquiring a bona fide star. If you're not giving up a lottery pick, a high potential young player (i.e. - former lottery pick), or another bona fide star...and if you're not playing the lottery...then man, you are talking about getting your franchise talent via two methods...

A DICEY GAMBLE OR GOOD OL' FASHIONED DUMB f***ing LUCK.

Wretch, they have a guy that they are playing the waiting game on. I don't know if it is a good strategy or not but if and I stress IF it happened we would have a superstar on the team. The 64,000 question then would be if we could convince him to stay and not leave as a free agent.

That...would be interesting and is quite telling if accurate. It is also the most encouraging thing I could possibly hear about Danny Ferry. It means he understands it. The tap dancing with bargain-bin drafting/trading/FAcy shopping is one thing...but that dude knows what it will really take to turn this franchise around.

I also know the player they are/would be targeting...and I know what people are going to/would say about him.

[Wretch]

If it's not complicated, why is it so incredibly difficult to see positive results out of the teams that take this route?

Because I don't see the teams that do it that way...and you guys have to jump through all sorts of hoops and dance around semantics to show that it's done that way. It all comes back to that franchise cog...the engine that makes the contender go. Teams don't do what you guys say they do to get those players...they just don't and without a bunch of subjective song and dance, you can't present anything to the contrary.

No team is giving up a superstar for spare parts? There's plenty of examples of teams getting rid of superstar players for spare parts and we all go wow I can't believe they didn't get more for hiim.

As for your lottery hopes all I can say is Marvin, Horford, Sheldon, Childress and Law. Every one of them were among your premium picks and ONLY 1 of them turned out to be a good player. The rest were all varying degrees of awful. History has shown us that this is not a fool proof plan, no matter how good you think the players may be they are more likely to be bad than they are to be good.

...and again, we want to point at the lottery failures and bad picks. We're sitting here making better picks...the best picks...days, weeks, and months before each of those drafts. We present better strategies...and we know the guy is an idiot, but we still want to pin it all on "the lottery just sucks."

Moreover, you are ignoring the fact that even if a player doesn't make the impact you want...he's still an asset. We just held onto them for too long. Many teams have flipped lottery picks and young players for stars. We just liked our core....

Teams do not give up stars for spare parts. They give up guys on the end of their deals in desperation to get something for them or they trade over the hill guys for the best they can get. Personally, I would not put much stock into either of those routes for us....because we would have to deal the assets you guys are so desperately guarding. Leaving us with a star on a short deal or an aging star...and either with no team to support him.

[Sothron]

You guys put way too much stock into mid-late 1st round draft picks. See...this is what I don't get.

People will freely admit that the lottery is crap-shoot and the odds are terrible at best at acquiring a franchise changer there...

Yet, despite the mountain of historical data to suggest otherwise, people are inclined to believe that we can expect the same caliber of player fishing in a much less potent pool of talent.

"That's not what we're saying at all. What we're saying is that you can get quality players, even borderline All Stars without using the lottery."

Problem is, with all of the borderline all stars and serviceable players....you will still not contend without a star/engine to power your team. You still have to get the star somehow...

"Trade those borderline star assets for the star, Wretch."

Yes, because people are beating down our door with offers for those kinds of players. We can do this song and dance all day. It isn't my contention that the serviceable parts, bargain players, and late picks are worthless. Only that it is beyond stupid to rely on late draft picks to acquire franchise changing talent. The priority for Atlanta should not be in acquiring serviceable parts - it has to be on getting the engine. The party doesn't start until we have that player.

This is the part you're missing: there are a MILLION-JILLION-FRILLION ways to get quality players. We can stock those guys up until the cows come home....and OHHHHH by the Holy Heet-Check Nimbers of Nique Magnifique...have we managed to wrangle up quality players in the 30 or so years I've watched this club. I'm not saying we should just abandon all other routes/quality of players. However, we're not talking about contending with this club until we're talking about an ENGINE/FRANCHISE QUALITY TALENT in a Hawks uniform.

And if you are talking about that kind of player, then we can cut the bullshit right here. Because my friends....my fellow Hawks fans...we have entered a very cut and dry, black and white conversation. People...there is a ****FINITE**** amount of NARROW paths to acquiring a bona fide star. If you're not giving up a lottery pick, a high potential young player (i.e. - former lottery pick), or another bona fide star...and if you're not playing the lottery...then man, you are talking about getting your franchise talent via two methods...

A DICEY GAMBLE OR GOOD OL' FASHIONED DUMB f***ing LUCK.

That...would be interesting and is quite telling if accurate. It is also the most encouraging thing I could possibly hear about Danny Ferry. It means he understands it. The tap dancing with bargain-bin drafting/trading/FAcy shopping is one thing...but that dude knows what it will really take to turn this franchise around.

I also know the player they are/would be targeting...and I know what people are going to/would say about him.

I fully expect if it happens to have half the board go berserk and say there is no way that guy is a superstar that can win a title but I think they are dead wrong.

[HawkItus]

Wretch you like to type...answer my questions in my post. You arguing for a fantasy scenario.Sent from my LG-MS770 using Tapatalk

[Admin]

Because I don't see the teams that do it that way...and you guys have to jump through all sorts of hoops and dance around semantics to show that it's done that way. It all comes back to that franchise cog...the engine that makes the contender go. Teams don't do what you guys say they do to get those players...they just don't and without a bunch of subjective song and dance, you can't present anything to the contrary.

...and again, we want to point at the lottery failures and bad picks. We're sitting here making better picks...the best picks...days, weeks, and months before each of those drafts. We present better strategies...and we know the guy is an idiot, but we still want to pin it all on "the lottery just sucks."

Moreover, you are ignoring the fact that even if a player doesn't make the impact you want...he's still an asset. We just held onto them for too long. Many teams have flipped lottery picks and young players for stars. We just liked our core....

Teams do not give up stars for spare parts. They give up guys on the end of their deals in desperation to get something for them or they trade over the hill guys for the best they can get. Personally, I would not put much stock into either of those routes for us....because we would have to deal the assets you guys are so desperately guarding. Leaving us with a star on a short deal or an aging star...and either with no team to support him.

What hoops are we jumping through? I guarantee you if I wanted to put in the effort I could prove that teams that suck and are in the lottery year after year have a hell of a lot more failure than they do success with their lottery picks.

So Garnett wasn't a star? Because the T-Wolves got crap for him with the best being Al only plays one end of the court Jefferson. Or how about Carmelo, he was traded for a bunch of spare parts. Going further back, how about the Hornets getting a young stud Peja for a guy who basically never played for the Pacers. Or the Nuggets getting Camby, Nene and Mark Jackson for McDice. I could go on and on but there are a ton of stars and borderline stars that are traded for spare parts.