If one star would come to Atlanta then......

[HawkItus]

Again you guys are nuts. When ever have the Hawks had a chance at a top 10 player and not pulled the trigger? It hasn't happened. And I'm pretty certain if one of these guys was available to use we would include Harry the Hawk and Nique again if it consummated the deal. Yall act like Ferry is not willing to do what it takes the win. If he had that opportunity he would take it. Why wouldn't he?

[Wretch]

Wretch we get it you and a few others here want to make us the next Charlotte, Cleveland or Sacramento. But some of us just aren't comfortable with that. And I know I know someone is gonna bring up OKC as the shining example of living high off the lottery but they're the exception, just as the Pacers are the exception at the other end of the debate. How about we just sit back and give Ferry 3 full years to see what his plan is? Is that too much to ask?

That's just it. I don't think Danny Ferry would do that. The guy is smart and he is doing all the right things. I actually love what he's doing with the team (See people! Stop making assumptions about me! This is how I get off on long tangents...I don't like things to be misconstrued/taken out of context.). Ferry has the right attitude and I am 1000% confident that this dude could build a championship team.

The problem I see is that he's taking the road less traveled to get there. That is the truth and you guys are blinded to it. You have to dig deep to find teams that didn't use the lottery somehow to build a contender and there are far fewer of those than vice versa. Sure it's easy to look back at a deal like Nuggets/Knicks or Wolves/Celtics and value the trade as you see it now...but if you evaluate these deals in the context in which they were completed, you will see that they don't support your viewpoint. MOST of them do not because they involve the one asset that you guys don't want...because you fear losing.

We don't want to be perennial losers. We just want those assets to build with - either to develop into a player or trade. You put Danny Ferry in charge of what we were doing in the early 2000's and tell me that we'd have had the same draft results.

(( clap . . . clap . . . clap ))

As I tell people on here and especially on other sites, the rest of the league isn't going to wait for the Hawks to decide what they want to do in the future. They're making their future moves NOW.

Acting like the Hawks can build a winner with a bunch of 5 - 8 million a year type players, is wishful thinking. We have to find a franchise changing player somehow, some way.

I'm definitely as close to anti-Ferry as they come, because I think he simply straddles the fence. I would almost bet that as the trade deadline approaches, he will not make a move. He'll MIGHT try to move a guy like Lou Williams, but with the way Lou is playing these days, he may not get much for him. So instead of trading someone else, he'll hold onto them.

That Forbes article really tells the story about our franchise. I think the real goal is to simply keep this franchise at playoff level, no matter if it's the top seed . . or the 8th seed. Making the playoffs and getting a little extra money, is all that matters.

It would take for this squad to completely fall apart, for them to consider trading some of the major assets we have.

See, I'm not a Ferry Hater. But this is exactly why I'm still not sold on him. My biggest fear is that he's one of these guys that thinks you can build a contender without REBUILDING. If you're not NY or LAL...or you don't have an established engine already, I don't think it can be done.

Again you guys are nuts. When ever have the Hawks had a chance at a top 10 player and not pulled the trigger? It hasn't happened. And I'm pretty certain if one of these guys was available to use we would include Harry the Hawk and Nique again if it consummated the deal. Yall act like Ferry is not willing to do what it takes the win. If he had that opportunity he would take it. Why wouldn't he?

None of us are saying what you're implying. All of us agree the man will make the right deal if it comes along. Where we differ is this: we don't think we have the assets to get the kind of player that's going to make a difference. Given that FAcy is not our friend, we believe that our best shot at a game changer is through the draft. Given that it's infinitely more difficult to acquire a game changer outside of the lottery...we feel that our best chances at getting a game changer are either a) fish one out of there ourselves or b) trade the ASSET (like countless teams have done in the past) to get one.

That's not nuts. That's actually the NORM in the NBA.

Edited January 23, 2014 by WretchedDamnCrow

[Admin]

That's just it. I don't think Danny Ferry would do that. The guy is smart and he is doing all the right things. I actually love what he's doing with the team (See people! Stop making assumptions about me! This is how I get off on long tangents...I don't like things to be misconstrued/taken out of context.). Ferry has the right attitude and I am 1000% confident that this dude could build a championship team.

The problem I see is that he's taking the road less traveled to get there. That is the truth and you guys are blinded to it. You have to dig deep to find teams that didn't use the lottery somehow to build a contender and there are far fewer of those than vice versa. Sure it's easy to look back at a deal like Nuggets/Knicks or Wolves/Celtics and value the trade as you see it now...but if you evaluate these deals in the context in which they were completed, you will see that they don't support your viewpoint. MOST of them do not because they involve the one asset that you guys don't want...because you fear losing.

We don't want to be perennial losers. We just want those assets to build with - either to develop into a player or trade. You put Danny Ferry in charge of what we were doing in the early 2000's and tell me that we'd have had the same draft results.

Who other than OKC has built their team into championship contenders primarily through the lottery? I can give you a long list of teams who've tried and continue to fail but I bet you can't give me anywhere near the same list of teams who have so this "road more traveled" by building through the lottery doesn't hold much water with me. Championship teams are by and large created through free agency and trades in this day and age and that's the truth no matter how people want to try and ignore that fact.

[HawkItus]

Ok Wretch I'm am starting to understand your pitch, but tell me this..........what about this list screams that it is the best route to go?.....I mean if you get lucky and get in the top 3, you still are batting what? 40% at best?

2012

1. New Orleans Hornets (Anthony Davis—Kentucky)2. Charlotte Bobcats (Michael Kidd-Gilchrist—Kentucky)3. Washington Wizards (Bradley Beal—Florida)

2011

1. Cleveland Cavaliers (Kyrie Irving—Duke)2. Minnesota Timberwolves (Derrick Williams—Arizona)3. Utah Jazz (Enes Kanter—Kentucky)

2010

1. Washington Wizards (John Wall—Kentucky)2. Philadelphia 76ers (Evan Turner—Ohio State)3. New Jersey Nets (Derrick Favors—Georgia Tech)

2009

1. Los Angeles Clippers (Blake Griffin—Oklahoma)2. Memphis Grizzlies (Hasheem Thabeet—Connecticut)3. Oklahoma City Thunder (James Hardin—Arizona State)

2008

1. Chicago Bulls (Derrick Rose—Memphis)2. Miami Heat (Michael Beasley—Kansas State)3. Minnesota Timberwolves (O.J. Mayo—USC)

2007

1. Portland Trail Blazers (Greg Oden—Ohio State)2. Seattle Supersonics (Kevin Durant—Texas)3. Atlanta Hawks (Al Horford—Florida)

2006

1. Toronto Raptors (Andrea Bargnani—Italy)2. Chicago Bulls (LaMarcus Aldridge—Texas)3. Charlotte Bobcats (Adam Morrison—Gonzaga)

2005

1. Milwaukee Bucks (Andrew Bogut—Utah)2. Atlanta Hawks (Marvin Williams—North Carolina)3. Utah Jazz (Deron Williams—Illinois)

2004

1. Orlando Magic (Dwight Howard—Southwest Atlanta Christian Academy, Atlanta, Ga.)2. Charlotte Bobcats (Emeka Okafor—Connecticut)3. Chicago Bulls (Ben Gordon—Connecticut)

2003

1. Cleveland Cavaliers (LeBron James—St. Vincent-St. Marys HS, Akron, Ohio)2. Detroit Pistons (Darko Milicic—Henofarm Vrsac)3. Denver Nuggets (Carmelo Anthony—Syracuse)

[Vol4ever]

Northcyde and Hawksfan are dead on.

[Wretch]

Who other than OKC has built their team into championship contenders primarily through the lottery? I can give you a long list of teams who've tried and continue to fail but I bet you can't give me anywhere near the same list of teams who have so this "road more traveled" by building through the lottery doesn't hold much water with me. Championship teams are by and large created through free agency and trades in this day and age and that's the truth no matter how people want to try and ignore that fact.

This is where you are misreading me and probably most others. Whereas you guys are advocating building by excluding the lottery, I am not advocating building the team exclusively through the lottery. Your contention to my views here are based on a terrble preconception. I am not a Ferry hater and I do not believe that you can/should build a *contending* team PRIMARILY though the lottery.

What I'm telling you is that if you DON'T use the lottery (either developing a player drafted high, trading that player, or trading the pick) you are SEVERELY hampering you ability to acquire a franchise changing talent. Now you take that and couple it with:

Our free agency track record

Our lack of lottery assets

Our lack of an already established engine/franchise player

AND our intention to avoid going into the lottery (rebuilding) for the sake of being competitive...

My God man.....do you not see the corner we are backing ourselves into? We are pinning our hopes on mid-late 1sts (RoShown McCleod, Ed Gray, Doug Edwards, Alan Henderson), bargain bin trades, and lateral moves. To me, we are RISKING building the 90's team all over again. Good but not great and once again extending irrelevancy.

I wouldn't risk that. I'd sooner SUCK IT UP and rebuild. We would have the assets to pull off a Boston, grow into an OKC, or maintain a San Antonio. We could do what the Clippers have just done or what NY did. All the while, we can still do everything you guys want to do to complete the team.

Again, that's not a bad plan and it's not crazy. It's the norm.

*edits for clarity of my point!

Edited January 23, 2014 by WretchedDamnCrow

[Wretch]

Moreover, I'm not even talking about CHAMPIONSHIP teams...I'm just talking about contenders. Teams that have made the CF's.

[Admin]

This is where you are misreading me and probably most others. Whereas you guys are advocating building by excluding the lottery, I am not advocating building the team exclusively through the lottery. Your contention to my views here are based on a terrble preconception. I am not a Ferry hater and I do not believe that you can/should build a *contending* team PRIMARILY though the lottery.

What I'm telling you is that if you DON'T use the lottery (either developing a player drafted high, trading that player, or trading the pick) you are SEVERELY hampering you ability to acquire a franchise changing talent. Now you take that and couple it with:

Our free agency track record

Our lack of lottery assets

Our lack of an already established engine/franchise player

AND our intention to avoid going into the lottery (rebuilding) for the sake of being competitive...

My God man.....do you not see the corner we are backing ourselves into? We are pinning our hopes on mid-late 1sts (RoShown McCleod, Ed Gray, Doug Edwards, Alan Henderson), bargain bin trades, and lateral moves. To me, we are RISKING building the 90's team all over again. Good but not great and once again extending irrelevancy.

I wouldn't risk that. I'd sooner SUCK IT UP and rebuild. We would have the assets to pull off a Boston, grow into an OKC, or maintain a San Antonio. We could do what the Clippers have just done or what NY did. All the while, we can still do everything you guys want to do to complete the team.

Again, that's not a bad plan and it's not crazy. It's the norm.

*edits for clarity of my point!

Very well you've now established that you don't have to build entirely through the lottery. But let me ask you this, how are we going to get into the high lottery with the team we currently have? What are your realistic expectations here? Obviously we'd have to trade Horford, Millsap and Teague in order to have a chance to be that bad. Do you think a team will give us a 1st round pick in 2014 for any of those guys? What about 2015, 2016, 2017? Now in order to be that bad, what are we going to have to do? Exactly it all comes back to the nasty T word... which I will never, ever be in favor of.

Oh and tanking and going for high lottery picks and then turning around and becoming a championship contender are NOT the norm. Sorry but far more often than not teams that are in the high lottery continue to suck and are not attractive at all to free agents (unless you severely overpay ala Joe) so you can't build with them.

[macdaddy]

To me, we are RISKING building the 90's team all over again. Good but not great and once again extending irrelevancy.

Isn't that the team of the 2000s that we did build almost entirely through the lottery?

[Jody23]

Other than the one exception in the early 2000 Pistons, what championship team has not utilized the lottery? Also, what example is there of a team NOT using the lottery in anyway, but using free agency, trades and mid/late first round picks to become a champion? Are the Hawks trying to become another "exception" champion?

[Admin]

Isn't that the team of the 2000s that we did build almost entirely through the lottery?

Not exclusively, remember we gave an unproven JJ and enormous contract and gave up two 1sts as well. So that fits even more into these guys plans for making us that 13 game winner and laughing stock of the NBA again. And before you guys say "we're already the laughing stock" I can promise you that if you think that then you don't remember how we were constantly the punchline on ESPN and TNT back then. I don't ever want to go back to that point. Not ever!

[Wretch]

Ok Wretch I'm am starting to understand your pitch, but tell me this..........what about this list screams that it is the best route to go?.....I mean if you get lucky and get in the top 3, you still are batting what? 40% at best?

2012

1. New Orleans Hornets (Anthony Davis—Kentucky)2. Charlotte Bobcats (Michael Kidd-Gilchrist—Kentucky)3. Washington Wizards (Bradley Beal—Florida)

2011

1. Cleveland Cavaliers (Kyrie Irving—Duke)2. Minnesota Timberwolves (Derrick Williams—Arizona)3. Utah Jazz (Enes Kanter—Kentucky)

2010

1. Washington Wizards (John Wall—Kentucky)2. Philadelphia 76ers (Evan Turner—Ohio State)3. New Jersey Nets (Derrick Favors—Georgia Tech)

2009

1. Los Angeles Clippers (Blake Griffin—Oklahoma)2. Memphis Grizzlies (Hasheem Thabeet—Connecticut)3. Oklahoma City Thunder (James Hardin—Arizona State)

2008

1. Chicago Bulls (Derrick Rose—Memphis)2. Miami Heat (Michael Beasley—Kansas State)3. Minnesota Timberwolves (O.J. Mayo—USC)

2007

1. Portland Trail Blazers (Greg Oden—Ohio State)2. Seattle Supersonics (Kevin Durant—Texas)3. Atlanta Hawks (Al Horford—Florida)

2006

1. Toronto Raptors (Andrea Bargnani—Italy)2. Chicago Bulls (LaMarcus Aldridge—Texas)3. Charlotte Bobcats (Adam Morrison—Gonzaga)

2005

1. Milwaukee Bucks (Andrew Bogut—Utah)2. Atlanta Hawks (Marvin Williams—North Carolina)3. Utah Jazz (Deron Williams—Illinois)

2004

1. Orlando Magic (Dwight Howard—Southwest Atlanta Christian Academy, Atlanta, Ga.)2. Charlotte Bobcats (Emeka Okafor—Connecticut)3. Chicago Bulls (Ben Gordon—Connecticut)

2003

1. Cleveland Cavaliers (LeBron James—St. Vincent-St. Marys HS, Akron, Ohio)2. Detroit Pistons (Darko Milicic—Henofarm Vrsac)3. Denver Nuggets (Carmelo Anthony—Syracuse)

It's like I have to have this same conversations a 100 times a year....

You are narrowing down my opinion to the top 3 picks every year, further contrasting that against their success rate, and further skewing the conversation by asking, "Where's the contenders here?" Your list doesn't support an argument against me.

You are ignoring the rest of the draft lottery and you are ignoring the trades that were made - which is the biggest part of what I've been saying for years. You are also ignoring the contenders that come out of the East and West in the final four and how they got there. If you don't skew the conversation with semantics (i.e. - the Heat didn't draft DWade...he was a free agent, the Mavs didn't draft Dirk they traded for him)...you will find that these teams are acquiring the key pieces to their title contention by using the draft lottery (picks 1-14).

Reason being? The first 10 or so picks of the draft is where the stars come from, dude. It is an NBA fact of life. You get those picks by virtue of missing the playoffs or by trading equal value. Teams that have those picks want the same value in return by way of a lottery pick, a former lottery pick, or an established star.

As long as you are not willing to deal into the lottery or fall into the lottery (picks 1-14), you are basically excluding yourself from conversations regarding those kinds of players. If you deal into the lottery...it's going to cost you. In our case we're talking Horf/Sap/Teague.

If we're not dealing them to get in there, then what are we dealing for?

Lateral move? How does this improve us?

An aging star? To surround him with what?

A young and upcoming, perhaps unproven player? Is that rebuilding? If we give up our established borderline All Star vets for young unproven talent? We're barely keeping in the middle of the pack WITH these borderline All Stars...what would happen if we dealt them for younger, rawer players?

[Wretch]

Isn't that the team of the 2000s that we did build almost entirely through the lottery?

You are also ignoring who built that team and the OPPORTUNITY we had to deal those players before we let them bust on us. You are ignoring our management and WLOC. We should have made trades MUCH sooner...and I can't believe you guys are forgetting just how many of us WANTED to do exactly that.

[macdaddy]

Other than the one exception in the early 2000 Pistons, what championship team has not utilized the lottery? Also, what example is there of a team NOT using the lottery in anyway, but using free agency, trades and mid/late first round picks to become a champion? Are the Hawks trying to become another "exception" champion?

But we have used the lottery. The most direct proof being the #3 overall pick who is the current centerpiece of our team (though injured).

[Wretch]

Other than the one exception in the early 2000 Pistons, what championship team has not utilized the lottery? Also, what example is there of a team NOT using the lottery in anyway, but using free agency, trades and mid/late first round picks to become a champion? Are the Hawks trying to become another "exception" champion?

LOL...my God man, how is this done with only THREE SENTENCES! :OI must learn your technique!

[macdaddy]

You are also ignoring who built that team and the OPPORTUNITY we had to deal those players before we let them bust on us. You are ignoring our management and WLOC. We should have made trades MUCH sooner...and I can't believe you guys are forgetting just how many of us WANTED to do exactly that.

So it didn't work before because of the person who built the team but it will work this time because we have a better person...only problem is this better person doesn't agree with you that this is the way to go.

[Wretch]

But we have used the lottery. The most direct proof being the #3 overall pick who is the current centerpiece of our team (though injured).

You're absolutely right. So you know what that means?

It means that the current team that you love so much, and it's hopes for contending, DO NOT SUPPORT YOUR DAMN ARGUMENT.

It supports OURS.

Even though we haven't been to the final four.... :(

[Admin]

I'm just sitting here like damn, I wonder when Wretch is gonna actually provide a working, concrete strategy (not theory) and show some proof of teams employing his strategy and becoming conference championship level teams.

[Wretch]

So it didn't work before because of the person who built the team but it will work this time because we have a better person...only problem is this better person doesn't agree with you that this is the way to go.

100% correct. Except for the assumption. We don't know with 100% certainty what Danny Ferry believes is the best way to go. You can bet that he knows we need an engine and I am quite curious as to how he's going to get it.

[Admin]

100% correct. Except for the assumption. We don't know with 100% certainty what Danny Ferry believes is the best way to go. You can bet that he knows we need an engine and I am quite curious as to how he's going to get it.

Sothron already told you he's going to get that player through trade, not through tanking. We KNOW that Danny Ferry doesn't believe in tanking because he's said as much.