If one star would come to Atlanta then......

[macdaddy]

You're absolutely right. So you know what that means?

It means that the current team that you love so much, and it's hopes for contending, DO NOT SUPPORT YOUR DAMN ARGUMENT.

It supports OURS.

Even though we haven't been to the final four.... :(

That's nonsense. My argument (and i think others) is that getting into the lottery right now for this team doesn't make sense. Not that we should never ever be in the lottery.

[Wretch]

I'm just sitting here like damn, I wonder when Wretch is gonna actually provide a working, concrete strategy (not theory) and show some proof of teams employing his strategy and becoming conference championship level teams.

Dolf, I've done it a 100 times. I won't do it again. It is you guys' turn to answer these questions:

Other than the one exception in the early 2000 Pistons, what championship team has not utilized the lottery? Also, what example is there of a team NOT using the lottery in anyway, but using free agency, trades and mid/late first round picks to become a champion? Are the Hawks trying to become another "exception" champion?

^^Answer those questions Dolf, and I will give you all the concrete examples you want.

Edited January 23, 2014 by WretchedDamnCrow

[Admin]

Dolf, I've done it a 100 times. I won't do it again. It is you guys' turn to answer these questions:

Do that and I will give you all the concrete examples you want.

Bull you haven't listed 1 single concrete plan and shown teams who've employed that. At least not in this thread.

I've already listed the Pacers and I'm sorry but I'm not going to consider them as a team who utilized the lottery when their 1 and only lottery pick was the 10th pick and a guy projected to still be there outside of the lottery if they hadn't taken him.

That's nonsense. My argument (and i think others) is that getting into the lottery right now for this team doesn't make sense. Not that we should never ever be in the lottery.

Three sentences. Exactly!

[Wretch]

That's nonsense. My argument (and i think others) is that getting into the lottery right now for this team doesn't make sense. Not that we should never ever be in the lottery.

It's not nonsense.

You are saying we should not use the lottery.

If we hadn't used the lottery, we would not have Horford.

Come on dude.............there is no way to stretch or skew that.

[Admin]

It's not nonsense.

You are saying we should not use the lottery.

If we hadn't used the lottery, we would not have Horford.

Come on dude.............there is no way to stretch or skew that.

He specifically said that was not the case. He said the lottery RIGHT NOW FOR THIS TEAM doesn't make sense. Why is that so hard for you guys to grasp?

[Wretch]

Bull you haven't listed 1 single concrete plan and shown teams who've employed that. At least not in this thread.

I've already listed the Pacers and I'm sorry but I'm not going to consider them as a team who utilized the lottery when their 1 and only lottery pick was the 10th pick and a guy projected to still be there outside of the lottery if they hadn't taken him.

Three sentences. Exactly!

Dolfan...this dude was drafted with the 10th overall pick:

They are not the same team without him.

They did not trade for him.

They missed the playoffs and drafted him.

The Pacers do not support your viewpoint.

[Jody23]

But we have used the lottery. The most direct proof being the #3 overall pick who is the current centerpiece of our team (though injured).

Being in the lottery wasn't the problem. Using the lottery wasn't the problem. How the lottery was used WAS/IS THE PROBLEM. We cannot not ignore the fact that the person making our picks was trying to experiment instead of drafting CLEARLY the best players.

[Wretch]

He specifically said that was not the case. He said the lottery RIGHT NOW FOR THIS TEAM doesn't make sense. Why is that so hard for you guys to grasp?

Ok, I will give you that.

When do we use the lottery Dolf? In 2 years when Horf is an unrestricted FA, bolts, and leaves us with nothing?

[HawkItus]

You're absolutely right. So you know what that means?

It means that the current team that you love so much, and it's hopes for contending, DO NOT SUPPORT YOUR DAMN ARGUMENT.

It supports OURS.

Even though we haven't been to the final four.... :(

No it doesn't that team we had in the Boston series was your argument. 3 lottery picks and we got in the playoffs with a losing record. No thanks.

[Admin]

Dolfan...this dude was drafted with the 10th overall pick:

They are not the same team without him.

They did not trade for him.

They missed the playoffs and drafted him.

The Pacers do not support your viewpoint.

I guess you completely disregarded what I wrote in my post, which doesn't surprise me as I think you've been doing that throughout this entire thread.

Ok, I will give you that.

When do we use the lottery Dolf? In 2 years when Horf is an unrestricted FA, bolts, and leaves us with nothing?

Why must Horford leave as an UFA again? I didn't get that memo.

[Wretch]

I guess you completely disregarded what I wrote in my post, which doesn't surprise me as I think you've been doing that throughout this entire thread.

Why must Horford leave as an UFA again? I didn't get that memo.

Like I said, if you take what actually happened with these teams and put it in black and white...

If you take the context of these trades as they happen...

If you look at the key steps taken to build a contender...

You are typically going to bump into the NBA lottery. Not necessarily the top 3 picks, or a team built PRIMARILY through the lottery...you are going to see teams using those assets in a particular way to build their team. I don't need to list them all because the only CF quality teams over the past 20 or so years to have done it otherwise are the Pistons, Suns, and Lakers.

I've done the research a billion times. I've listed the teams a zillion times. The only arguments that come back are highly subjective, fluffed up with semantics, or they are skewed with selective logic (and omitted facts). You can't say the Pacers support your viewpoint because they drafted Paul George.

You can say Kevin Garnett supports your viewpoint, because Al Jefferson wasn't a lottery pick...he was taken 1 spot outside the lottery (omg....). To do that though, you still have to bring in this HoF player, to compliment your existing HoF player, while trading your lottery pick for another HoF player. Perhaps that one move supports the argument that you can get a good player without rebuilding, but it does not support the view that you can build the entire contending team without using the lottery.

[Wretch]

No it doesn't that team we had in the Boston series was your argument. 3 lottery picks and we got in the playoffs with a losing record. No thanks.

You're right. We didn't win a championship and we didn't make the conference finals. This means that just because you use the lottery, it doesn't mean you will build a championship team.

I believe I've said that I agree with that.

I also means that you can't build a team exclusively through the lottery and that you WILL win a championship/CF's appearance.

I believe I've also said that I agree with that.

It does show that if you use the lottery, you will have highly valuable assets to deal and you will likely end up with at least one cornerstone quality piece (Horford).

It does shows evidence to contradict that you can avoid using the lottery while at the same time build a contending team. Though we are not contending, we are closer to it WITH Al Horford, #3 pick overall, WON in the draft lottery than without him.

I would say that the fact that we have Horford more supports our argument than yours. You can paint it however you want. I doubt we would have made the playoffs without him and we are clearly not the same team with him currently sitting on the bench.

Edited January 23, 2014 by WretchedDamnCrow

[Admin]

Like I said, if you take what actually happened with these teams and put it in black and white...

If you take the context of these trades as they happen...

If you look at the key steps taken to build a contender...

You are typically going to bump into the NBA lottery. Not necessarily the top 3 picks, or a team built PRIMARILY through the lottery...you are going to see teams using those assets in a particular way to build their team. I don't need to list them all because the only CF quality teams over the past 20 or so years to have done it otherwise are the Pistons, Suns, and Lakers.

I've done the research a billion times. I've listed the teams a zillion times. The only arguments that come back are highly subjective, fluffed up with semantics, or they are skewed with selective logic (and omitted facts). You can't say the Pacers support your viewpoint because they drafted Paul George.

You can say Kevin Garnett supports your viewpoint, because Al Jefferson wasn't a lottery pick...he was taken 1 spot outside the lottery (omg....). To do that though, you still have to bring in this HoF player, to compliment your existing HoF player, while trading your lottery pick for another HoF player. Perhaps that one move supports the argument that you can get a good player without rebuilding, but it does not support the view that you can build the entire contending team without using the lottery.

No problem then if you don't feel the need to actually show a real plan then by all means continue on with the rhetoric.

I've had enough of this topic to last a lifetime so I'm out.

[Guest]

Dammit...ya'll MnF'rs have sucked me into a merry-go-round! I'm not checking this thread anymore! I have burned the whole damn day and haven't shot a single damn alien scumbag. Missed almost all of the Hawks game talking about the Hawks too...lol. How silly is that.........

This is the only thing worth responding too...glad I got off that merry-go-round 2 days ago before it got to this, I had a premonition....enjoy it you suckers.

[HawkItus]

Like I said, if you take what actually happened with these teams and put it in black and white...

If you take the context of these trades as they happen...

If you look at the key steps taken to build a contender...

You are typically going to bump into the NBA lottery. Not necessarily the top 3 picks, or a team built PRIMARILY through the lottery...you are going to see teams using those assets in a particular way to build their team. I don't need to list them all because the only CF quality teams over the past 20 or so years to have done it otherwise are the Pistons, Suns, and Lakers.

I've done the research a billion times. I've listed the teams a zillion times. The only arguments that come back are highly subjective, fluffed up with semantics, or they are skewed with selective logic (and omitted facts). You can't say the Pacers support your viewpoint because they drafted Paul George.

You can say Kevin Garnett supports your viewpoint, because Al Jefferson wasn't a lottery pick...he was taken 1 spot outside the lottery (omg....). To do that though, you still have to bring in this HoF player, to compliment your existing HoF player, while trading your lottery pick for another HoF player. Perhaps that one move supports the argument that you can get a good player without rebuilding, but it does not support the view that you can build the entire contending team without using the lottery.

So your basic point is......all things considered you want us to get in the lottery and start over....even though that doesn't guarantee we'll even be competitive as we are now? And if that does not work, we rinse and repeat until it does.....all the while hoping someone will take our acquired pieces we don't want(just because they are lottery picks) and trade us their Superstars even if it does work. Meanwhile this non-supportive city is going to magically be ok with that and the owners are supposed to just accept that "unless your first your last" and pump money into an abyss. Great plan.

[macdaddy]

This is the only thing worth responding too...glad I got off that merry-go-round 2 days ago before it got to this, I had a premonition....enjoy it you suckers.

Women always get the last word.

[Wretch]

No problem then if you don't feel the need to actually show a real plan then by all means continue on with the rhetoric.

I've had enough of this topic to last a lifetime so I'm out.

There is no plan for me to outline, Dolfan. I'd cash out and rebuild. To be honest, I would have cashed out with the JJ trade. What Ferry did when he came in (and is doing now), is what I would have done the summer after the Orlando series. All of this I've been saying for years.

As it were, I'd give this thing until the summer to see what we could come up with. But if I couldn't get a good gamble on a true star and keep at least Horf/Sap + Teague... If we don't have a contender after this summer, I would pull the plug, deal Horford, start collecting talent, and let players develop.

You guys say the the lottery isn't the right move right now. I'm saying there's no point in waiting on the rebuild. Especially with the assets we have right now and the draft that's coming up. To each his own though...and I can't wait to see how this plays out.

[Wretch]

So your basic point is......all things considered you want us to get in the lottery and start over....even though that doesn't guarantee we'll even be competitive as we are now? And if that does not work, we rinse and repeat until it does.....all the while hoping someone will take our acquired pieces we don't want(just because they are lottery picks) and trade us their Superstars even if it does work. Meanwhile this non-supportive city is going to magically be ok with that and the owners are supposed to just accept that "unless your first your last" and pump money into an abyss. Great plan.

You are only focusing on the negative aspects of rebuilding. Unlike you, I don't have a biased view on any part of talent acquisition.

Not every team that goes into the lottery ends up being Sacramento or Atlanta. Not every team ends up being OKC. It's not so much about the lottery dude. It is about one.....damn...thing. And one thing only.

The most important thing that this club can do right now is get a superstar in a Hawks uniform. Everything else is secondary. This team has got to get that player and it must build around him. The method by which we get there and the lumps we take are irrelevant.

It doesn't mean we go about it stupidly and it doesn't mean we ignore other avenues besides the lottery. It just means the focus has to be on finding our cornerstone somehow. To me, I think you start looking at lottery pick assets (1-14) and figure it out from there. I don't think you do it in reverse - build your competitive/average team and then wait for the superstar to fall out of the sky.

[tbhawksfan]

He specifically said that was not the case. He said the lottery RIGHT NOW FOR THIS TEAM doesn't make sense. Why is that so hard for you guys to grasp?

If he hadn't signed Sap and Korver and let Jeff "I wanna play...sometimes" Teague go, we would have been in an excellent high lottery pick position. We would have been rebuilding and the chances would have been very high that we would also get a high pick in the 2015 draft. Add that to our 3 2013 draft rookies and we would have optimized our chances to develop our own superstar. We would have sucked this year, but we'd have been able to watch all these high to mid team picks developing with Horf to show them the way or trade if he couldn't handle it. In a couple of years, you add a FA or 2 to your top young team and you can contend.I was hoping for a quick rebuild with Horf, our 2013 picks and two more high draft picks in 2014 and 2015. By 2016 we could have been climbing back up to the top with 2 high lottery picks (including the heralded 2014 draft).I would much rather suffer through 3 bad seasons to build with a team of Horf and two high lottery picks than to suffer through endless mediocre seasons with basically no chance to add a player as good as, or better than Horf.Once he signed Sap, Korver, JT, then he backed himself into a mediocrity corner. No high picks, no top FA's, no dreams of becoming the best.I think Ferry wants to win a championship but the ASG and ATL fans (attendance) won't let him. They'd rather win 40 games and lose in the playoffs. ASG for the revenue, the fans for the instant gratification of winning a few games along the way to more mediocrity.

[Ruckus]

You tankers are showing your lack of knowledge towards professional sports. Teams don't purposely tank. It's not in an athlete's DNA to suck on purpose. Many of you thought we were tanking last year and then again this year. This just shows your lacking ability to evaluate talent. Therefore any other advise you have should be taken with a grain of salt.