Did Ferry F$&k Up?

[ViperXX79]

Al Jefferson currently has a 99 Defensive rating. That places him in the top 20 in the NBA.

People want to talk about Jefferson not playing defense, but will go to the ends of the Earth to say that Korver is a great TEAM DEFENSE type of guy.

Meanwhile, Korver gets outproduced every other night.

A Jefferson - Horford frontline would've been a godsend for this franchise. A true building block to construct a squad around. There is no "plan" in the Ferry era. He's simply trying to be opportunistic if and when something comes up. Just because most Hawk fans don't believe that Al Jefferson isn't a high level player, doesn't make it true.

He's better than Millsap, despite Millsap's All-Star selection. And that's not a knock on Sap. It's simply illustrating how good Jefferson is.

In the time frame since Horford went down ( basically since Dec 28th until now ), here are Jefferson's numbers

23.8 ppg

11.2 rebs

2.5 asst

1.0 blks

1.0 stls

52% FG

68% FT

But only Hawks fans would find something wrong with a player producing at this level. Saying that he's overpaid, despite functioning as a #1 option on a nightly basis and dominating the defensive boards. Despite being able to score ( even dominate at times ) against defensive centers like Hibbert and Noah.

But keep waiting on our beloved GM to save us with some genius deal. Celebrate a Jordan Hill trade, like Ferry just pulled off some major coup or something.

Your post is filled with a lot of disdain for Hawks fans. I get someone not liking a player or someone is management but you demonstrate so much contempt for the fan base of the team you're a fan of. If I had that much scorn for such a large group of people I wouldn't hang out with them. That would drive me crazy...

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Nobody is saying that he's no good but is he worth 13.5 million? His opposing C's have an 18 PER against him, leaving him with a solid, but nothing special +5.3 NET PER. Before someone brings it up, Horford, in his down year is +3.5 NET PER. Last year Horford was +5.3 NET PER and we all know he's overmatched at the position.

Jefferson is certainly having a much better year than I expected but I wouldn't be comfortable paying 14 million to a guy who doesn't play good defense at the 5. I'd rather pay 12 to a guy like Noah who rebounds his butt off and blocks shots and makes offenses have to adjust to his defense.

But Noah was not available . . . Jefferson was.

So what do you do? Do you continue to rummage through garbage cans to find a competent center? Or do you continue to trot out Horford at center, and hope that he and Millsap can become a high quality tandem in the near future?

I don't see how you can talk about rather spending money on a player like Noah, when Noah was never available. We as fans have to speak in real world terms. And frankly, this franchise can't afford to pass up on ANY talented players.

Plus it would be the Joe Johnson Hawks all over again...There is no satisfying this fan base...When we were capped out with good player with no room to maneuver and our ceiling was the second round of the playoff, people complained. Now Ferry is Slowly rebuilding the team without going back to 13 wins and people are complaining. I swear this is a no win fan base!

Peoria . . . as of right now, when do you think we'll have a 50 win team in Atlanta? What does Ferry have to do, to even get us back to the level of the Joe Johnnson Hawks? Because even when Horford was healthy, we barely had our head above the .500 level mark. It wasn't like this team was playing high level basketball anyway. We were a #3 seed by default, because the rest of the East was so bad.

Memphis, who is the #9 seed in the West with a 30 - 23 record, would be a solid #3 seed in the East.

And I'm sorry P. If Ferry had completely tore down the team from the jump, you could preach patience.

- But when you have 30+ million in cap space

- And you still have a top 25 player in Al Horford

- And you fail to get us a high quality center to finally free him up to play his natural position of PF

- And then you fill the center position with a bunch of bench quality players

You're not only doing the franchise a disservice, you're doing your best player a disservice. Trust and believe that if Ferry doesn't get a high quality center here in Atlanta, Horford will be gone in 2 years. He's not going to continue to bang on the inside against the bigger guys, just because the GM doesn't believe that we need a more traditional center.

And if Horford walks, and we don't have any legit talent behind him, Ferry will have no choice but to blow it up. By then, we're be in Year 4 and 5 of the Ferry regime. And if he decides to blow it up that late in the game, he should be out of here.

[Admin]

Okay @TheNorthCydeRises then in real world terms I'd rather save the cap money than waste it on a guy like Jefferson. And Noah is just an example but there will come a time when he's available, as are other quality C's who are more deserving than Jefferson.

[AHF]

Okay @TheNorthCydeRises then in real world terms I'd rather save the cap money than waste it on a guy like Jefferson. And Noah is just an example but there will come a time when he's available, as are other quality C's who are more deserving than Jefferson.

Bear in mind that with Noah, he was a restricted free agent like Al so that restricted his salary. In an open market, he might go for considerably more.

[Admin]

Bear in mind that with Noah, he was a restricted free agent like Al so that restricted his salary. In an open market, he might go for considerably more.

He might but I highly doubt it since he offers nothing offensively. Cousins I can see that argument for but guys who are only exceptional on one end of the court won't get much more than 12 million.

[Peoriabird]

I have no idea what the nortcyderises plan is but if you want the Joe Johnson team back that is easy..There are a bunch of good players to over pay every year and they will come to play for your franchise...But if you wait for the right opportunity meaning when your draft choices are ready to make the next step and there is someone available that will really enhance your chances of breaking thru that Joe Johnson ceiling then you make your move. otherwise you become the New Jersey nets!

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Your post is filled with a lot of disdain for Hawks fans. I get someone not liking a player or someone is management but you demonstrate so much contempt for the fan base of the team you're a fan of. If I had that much scorn for such a large group of people I wouldn't hang out with them. That would drive me crazy...

My disdain is directed at the GM, and not the fans. I will say this about our fans though. I think we ( myself included ), tend to focus on a negative aspect about a player we don't like, or don't particularly care for . . . and try to use that negative to completely override the positive aspects of his game.

When Jamal Crawford was here, that's exactly what I did in the beginning. I did not like his And-1 mixtape game before he came to Atlanta. But even I had to admit that Jamal was more of an asset than a liability on most nights, especially in that 2009 - 10 season.

By the 2nd year though, Jamal was exhibiting the erratic play that he was known for. And it came down to the point that in order for Teague to develop, Jamal had to be gone. Not because Teague was better, but because Drew would continue to defer to Jamal for his offense, even playing him at the point, and limit Teague's overall playing time. Overall though, Jamal was good for the Hawks, as much as it pains me to admit that.

This is what you're seeing with the Al Jefferson argument. Our fans think that the money he's making, is too much money. I don't. And that's fine. Most fans see him as a complete defensive liability, when the reality is that ( according to SynergySports ), Jefferson is . . .

- only giving up 0.71 points per play on post ups, with opponents shooting 35% . . ( rank: 37th in the NBA )

- only giving up 0.69 ppp on the pick and roll, with opponents shooting 31% . . . ( rank: 8th )

- giving up 0.94 ppp on spot up shots, with opponents shooting 45% . . . ( rank: 129 )

These are the 3 main defensive situations that Jefferson is in. When you look at these numbers, it shows that

a) centers aren't scoring in the post with great efficiency vs Jefferson

b) his coach Steve Clifford has made an adjustment in Pick and Roll situations that has turned him into an asset on that play

c) he's probably not challenging jump shooting centers, giving them wide open midrange jumpers and 3 point looks

So forget the "perception", those are the truths about Jefferson and his defense. Clifford has instructed Jefferson to sag in the lane on the pick and roll, and told his guards to fight over top of the screen. That way, Jefferson is still in position to guard the "roll man", and the guard handling the ball will opt not to challenge the bigger Jefferson in the paint. If the guard does shoot, he's normally taking a 15 - 18 foot jumper, with the trailing guard closing out on him. From a defensive standpoint, that's great coaching by Clifford.

But the other element in this, is this fear of being "capped out", when we're nowhere near being "capped out". Adding a 13 - 14 mill player to this team doesn't cap us out, especially if that player is good. What happened in the Joe Johnson era, isn't that contracts like JJ, Smith, and Horford capped us out. It was the extensions given to Bibby, Marvin, and Zaza ( which equaled to about 20 million a year ), that did us much more harm. They were the guys who we erroneously invested in long term, that kept us from improving when we were real good. And even in those years, the front office could've added an MLE level player ( and put us into the Luxury Tax ), but never did it.

This is league where talent wins games, and coaching gets you over the top. But even mediocre coached teams can win with good to great talent. You can't say the same in reverse, with a good to great coach winning with mediocre talent. Doc Rivers isn't going to win with a bad Boston team. Bud isn't going to win if he has to rely on Mike Scott for instant offense ( and I like Mike Scott ).

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I have no idea what the nortcyderises plan is but if you want the Joe Johnson team back that is easy..There are a bunch of good players to over pay every year and they will come to play for your franchise...But if you wait for the right opportunity meaning when your draft choices are ready to make the next step and there is someone available that will really enhance your chances of breaking thru that Joe Johnson ceiling then you make your move. otherwise you become the New Jersey nets!

You know what the REAL problems with the Joe Johnson era teams were?

- no competent PG to run the team, especially from a leadership standpoint

- JJ's unwillingness to try to take over games offensively

- Josh Smith thinking he was much better than what he was

- poor play from our marginal players ( Marvin, Zaza, Bbby, etc )

- poor coaching in the playoffs

Some of us on this forum have been saying since 2009, that Smith or Horford needed to be flipped for a good PG or a good C. Most of us knew that they were simply too small and not physical enough to excel in the playoffs. So one of them had to go. But Sund "loved his core", so not only did they stayed, he re-upped with Zaza, Marvin, and Bibby to medium and long term deals.

From my standpoint, "flexibility" doesn't mean skimping on money paid to the actual stars of your team. I mean, what kind of money do you think Millsap is going to get in the summer of 2015, if he's playing like he is right now? He's going to be in demand, and he's going to get a deal somewhere in the 10 - 13 million range. So what is Ferry going to do then? Tell Millsap that his services are no longer needed, because we're not going to give him a 3 yr - 36 million dollar deal?

My plan is simple. Construct the best BALANCED team possible . . . or blow the dang thing up and get us into this lottery.

Jefferson and Horford would've given us a great frontline to work from. Then you get the best available guard ( preferably at PG ). If you keep Teague, then get us a high quality wing that can score the basketball and create his own shot. And you use the draft to select NBA ready players, not projects.

To get the type of player we want though, we're going to end up trading either Millsap or Horford. Because I don't see any of the major free agents coming here, nor do we have enough money freed up this summer to make a serious play at those guys.

[BudBall]

Looking back on it. Al Horford at PF and Al jefferson at C would have been really nice to have. Wish we had signed him and put the Center problem to a close.

[HawkItus]

My disdain is directed at the GM, and not the fans. I will say this about our fans though. I think we ( myself included ), tend to focus on a negative aspect about a player we don't like, or don't particularly care for . . . and try to use that negative to completely override the positive aspects of his game.

When Jamal Crawford was here, that's exactly what I did in the beginning. I did not like his And-1 mixtape game before he came to Atlanta. But even I had to admit that Jamal was more of an asset than a liability on most nights, especially in that 2009 - 10 season.

By the 2nd year though, Jamal was exhibiting the erratic play that he was known for. And it came down to the point that in order for Teague to develop, Jamal had to be gone. Not because Teague was better, but because Drew would continue to defer to Jamal for his offense, even playing him at the point, and limit Teague's overall playing time. Overall though, Jamal was good for the Hawks, as much as it pains me to admit that.

This is what you're seeing with the Al Jefferson argument. Our fans think that the money he's making, is too much money. I don't. And that's fine. Most fans see him as a complete defensive liability, when the reality is that ( according to SynergySports ), Jefferson is . . .

- only giving up 0.71 points per play on post ups, with opponents shooting 35% . . ( rank: 37th in the NBA )

- only giving up 0.69 ppp on the pick and roll, with opponents shooting 31% . . . ( rank: 8th )

- giving up 0.94 ppp on spot up shots, with opponents shooting 45% . . . ( rank: 129 )

These are the 3 main defensive situations that Jefferson is in. When you look at these numbers, it shows that

a) centers aren't scoring in the post with great efficiency vs Jefferson

b) his coach Steve Clifford has made an adjustment in Pick and Roll situations that has turned him into an asset on that play

c) he's probably not challenging jump shooting centers, giving them wide open midrange jumpers and 3 point looks

So forget the "perception", those are the truths about Jefferson and his defense. Clifford has instructed Jefferson to sag in the lane on the pick and roll, and told his guards to fight over top of the screen. That way, Jefferson is still in position to guard the "roll man", and the guard handling the ball will opt not to challenge the bigger Jefferson in the paint. If the guard does shoot, he's normally taking a 15 - 18 foot jumper, with the trailing guard closing out on him. From a defensive standpoint, that's great coaching by Clifford.

But the other element in this, is this fear of being "capped out", when we're nowhere near being "capped out". Adding a 13 - 14 mill player to this team doesn't cap us out, especially if that player is good. What happened in the Joe Johnson era, isn't that contracts like JJ, Smith, and Horford capped us out. It was the extensions given to Bibby, Marvin, and Zaza ( which equaled to about 20 million a year ), that did us much more harm. They were the guys who we erroneously invested in long term, that kept us from improving when we were real good. And even in those years, the front office could've added an MLE level player ( and put us into the Luxury Tax ), but never did it.

This is league where talent wins games, and coaching gets you over the top. But even mediocre coached teams can win with good to great talent. You can't say the same in reverse, with a good to great coach winning with mediocre talent. Doc Rivers isn't going to win with a bad Boston team. Bud isn't going to win if he has to rely on Mike Scott for instant offense ( and I like Mike Scott ).

Again I ask for all that money and the stats, where has Jefferson gotten his teams? You don't need 22 pts a game from your center anymore. What you want is a rim protector who rebounds defensively like nobody's business. Jefferson in this system is not as valuable as you think. Yes, he is a big body that will soak up minutes, but when the Hawks play the way Bud wants them to play Al Jefferson would not be a plus.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Again I ask for all that money and the stats, where has Jefferson gotten his teams? You don't need 22 pts a game from your center anymore. What you want is a rim protector who rebounds defensively like nobody's business. Jefferson in this system is not as valuable as you think. Yes, he is a big body that will soak up minutes, but when the Hawks play the way Bud wants them to play Al Jefferson would not be a plus.

Ummmm . . . you could say the same thing about Kevin Love, who hasn't made the playoffs in his 6 years in the league.

Would you like to have Kevin Love here?

Jefferson's not the center we need? We need anybody with talent that we can get our hands on. And I'm sorry, if I can get 22 ppg from ANYBODY, I'm taking that.

Jefferson isn't a great rim protector, but he's a top 10 rebounder in the league, and a beast on the defensive boards. You know where the Hawks rank in rebounding?

Offensive rebounding: 28th

Defensive rebounding: 20th

Total rebounding: 28th

But we don't need a guy like Jefferson, who is top 10 on the boards?

The other thing about Bud's offense is this. While it's a great free flowing type of offense that gets people open looks, the negative is that too many people handle the ball at times, which leads to a lot of turnovers. We're 21st in the league in turnovers. You know who doesn't turn the ball over? Al Jefferson.

How much more dangerous would the Hawks offense be, if we had the option to simply throw it down to Jefferson on the left block, and let him go to work?

Once again, talking about a rim protector and a rebounder is all well and good. But you have to talk in real world terms. The only rim protector and rebounder that was available last season, was Dwight Howard. When you can't get him, do you just sit back and go without . . . or do you wait another year or two or three years for that coveted "rim protector"?

The rest of the NBA is not going to wait on Ferry to make the right decisions. They are going to make moves and set themselves up to get the players that they want.

Washington just got Andre Miller to back up Wall

Charlotte just got 2 offensive guards in Gary Neal and Luke Ridnour

Brooklyn made their move for Marcus Thorton last night

Let's see what Ferry does.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I'll slow down my rant with this.

As for the theme of the topic, we all knows what happens with you F--k up.

[HawkItus]

Ummmm . . . you could say the same thing about Kevin Love, who hasn't made the playoffs in his 6 years in the league.

Would you like to have Kevin Love here?

Jefferson's not the center we need? We need anybody with talent that we can get our hands on. And I'm sorry, if I can get 22 ppg from ANYBODY, I'm taking that.

Jefferson isn't a great rim protector, but he's a top 10 rebounder in the league, and a beast on the defensive boards. You know where the Hawks rank in rebounding?

Offensive rebounding: 28th

Defensive rebounding: 20th

Total rebounding: 28th

But we don't need a guy like Jefferson, who is top 10 on the boards?

The other thing about Bud's offense is this. While it's a great free flowing type of offense that gets people open looks, the negative is that too many people handle the ball at times, which leads to a lot of turnovers. We're 21st in the league in turnovers. You know who doesn't turn the ball over? Al Jefferson.

How much more dangerous would the Hawks offense be, if we had the option to simply throw it down to Jefferson on the left block, and let him go to work?

Once again, talking about a rim protector and a rebounder is all well and good. But you have to talk in real world terms. The only rim protector and rebounder that was available last season, was Dwight Howard. When you can't get him, do you just sit back and go without . . . or do you wait another year or two or three years for that coveted "rim protector"?

The rest of the NBA is not going to wait on Ferry to make the right decisions. They are going to make moves and set themselves up to get the players that they want.

Washington just got Andre Miller to back up Wall

Charlotte just got 2 offensive guards in Gary Neal and Luke Ridnour

Brooklyn made their move for Marcus Thorton last night

Let's see what Ferry does.

Well then the rest of the league is making moves for Ferry. If those teams weaken their future and pass the Hawks by and get us into the lottery then he wins. I get it, you have a certain build in your head that you would like to see 'ferry pursue. It's disappointing when that happens and you don't see the vision. But, can't you just scale back and give it 3 years? If you can't see it by then blast away. I might even join you at that point.

[Plainview1981]

Anyone notice that there are no Luol Deng takers? No first round picks for him...

And people think Paul Millsap is going to have great trade value next year...

[Admin]

All you need to know about Jefferson's value is that the Bobcats are only +2.5 with him on the court. He's not a difference maker, never has been and never will be.

[wolvetigers]

I thought this was going to be another Teague thread... Drew did Teague a solid with that offer sheet. Anyway, at the time, I was pulling HARD for us to draft TH Jr. Wasn't sold on Snell, but I watched a lot of Michigan basketball and saw what TH Jr is. I also saw that he was inconsistent and when he goes into slumps, he slumps HARD and for long periods of time. I think that is what detracted a lot of GM's from TH Jr. He also isn't that great defensively, but hindsight is 20/20 and it's easy to say now that we could have used TH Jr in Atlanta.

I wanted Tim Hardaway JR too....we still may get him in a trade if they want Teague bad enough

[Admin]

Anyone notice that there are no Luol Deng takers? No first round picks for him...

And people think Paul Millsap is going to have great trade value next year...

Because Deng won't give anyone a promise of re-signing with them. Millsap may very well be willing to do that. Or we may just be keeping Millsap or we may be trading him for another player or we may just let him walk for nothing and use his money on someone else. Lots of options. Unlike Cleveland, we gave up nothing but cap space to get Millsap.

I wanted Tim Hardaway JR too....we still may get him in a trade if they want Teague bad enough

I'm shocked you wanted him!

[Plainview1981]

Because Deng won't give anyone a promise of re-signing with them. Millsap may very well be willing to do that. Or we may just be keeping Millsap or we may be trading him for another player or we may just let him walk for nothing and use his money on someone else. Lots of options. Unlike Cleveland, we gave up nothing but cap space to get Millsap.

I'm shocked you wanted him!

It likely costed the team a top 5 pick this year and so they did give up something.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Hotlanta1981

[Admin]

It likely costed the team a top 5 pick this year and so they did give up something.

We can play the what if game all day. Maybe if we didn't sign Millsap then Horford isn't in that exact position at that time that blew his boob out and no way are we a bottom tier team with Horford.

[Alex]

Looking back on it. Al Horford at PF and Al jefferson at C would have been really nice to have. Wish we had signed him and put the Center problem to a close.

Yep and then maybe Al isn't hurt again this season because he would have been playing his actual position,