Zach Lowe: Everyone wants the same lopsided deal Atlanta got for Joe Johnson

[benhillboy]

They had a fan poll before the game on favorite former Hawk in the league, I think there were 8 players. Joe was last, behind Jamal I think. Colin voted 2,476 times to make Zaza first. Sund definately wasn't the first to sign a marginal star to an insane contract fit for a superstar, but Ferry might be the last to unload such a disastrous one so swiftly with so much potential compensation.

Edited February 22, 2014 by benhillboy

[Wretch]

I'm sure North will have a good reply but it shouldn't be one of a personal nature as that was never my intent. Just didn't want the 2 guys who I thought were most against the trade to miss this one.

I think we should have an essay-off between @TheNorthCydeRises and @Wretch

LOL.....well, I think North and I are on the same side of the current state of the Hawks debate. So that epic TL:DR thread won't happen for a while.

You gonna give me nightmares thinking about that kinda shit though. Me and Walt used to essay battle back and forth, circa 2004/2005 regarding Chris Paul. That was back when I used to do a crap-ton of research, fact checking, and stat babbling...and it's the reason why I stopped riding merry-go-rounds. My God the time I spent on the Squawk back then........ *shudder* I've no doubt that I lost entire weeks running my mouth.

[gsuteke]

Ferry made a great deal. But to make it a slam dunk he has to find a franchise changing player to take that money he freed up.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

LOL . . . it's too bad I didn't see this earlier in the day. My computer would've had a meltdown between here and Peachtreehoops.

I'll just post one of my many replies on this topic right here, and go from there. This was a reply when someone said that JJ was worth every penny to the Nets:

The JJ deal put an absolute DEAD franchise back on the map. It enabled them to re-sign 2 very good players in Deron and Lopez. Because of that, they instantly became relevant on the national TV map. They made a 27 win jump in the standings last year. They made the playoffs for the first time in 5 years. But unfortunately, they laid an egg vs a more mentally tough Chicago Bulls team.

Meanwhile, look at the Hawks. Last year, we survived just fine without JJ, winning 44 games. We lost a tough series to Indiana. Last year was not a failure, and Ferry had the opportunity to go either way . . . build a better team, or completely tear it down and rebuild it.

Instead, he used JJ’s cap space to do virtually nothing to improve the team. You can argue that the money vacated from not re-signing Smith was put to good use by signing Millsap. But where has JJ’s money gone?

- re-signing Teague to a 4 year deal . . . 8 mill this year- signing Lou Williams to a 4 year deal . . 5.2 mill - signing Kyle Korver to a 4 year deal . . . 6.7 mill- signing DeMarre Carroll to a 3 year deal . . . 2.5 mill- signing Brand . . . 4 mill- signing Antić . . . 1.2 mill- signing Ayón . . . 1.5 mill

Now look at that list of players. Currently, the fans want the 8 million guy ( Teague ) and the 5 million guy ( Lou ) traded. They love the 1.2 million guy ( Antić ). They really love the 2.5 million guy ( Carroll ). The 6.7 million guy is celebrated, despite getting outplayed 1 every 2 games ( Korver ). And the 1.5 million guy is a journeyman that is only playing out of emergency ( Ayón ).

Basically, the legacy of the JJ deal hinges on the ability of Dennis Schröder to eventually take the PG spot . . . and for Brooklyn to bomb out and give us an opportunity to improve our draft position.

The JJ deal is nothing but a salary dump, because Ferry didn’t use it to bring in another significant player. If Dennis doesn’t pan out, the next few years for the Hawks could really be a mediocre experience. Moreso than during the Joe Johnson era.

Edited February 22, 2014 by TheNorthCydeRises

[TheNorthCydeRises]

All I wanted the GM to do ( I refuse to even say his name anymore ) . . . was to build the best team possible . . or tear it completely down. Don't play it down the middle. But that's exactly what he did.

But people praise that dude like he has done something great.

SMH . . . . tonight's loss makes the first time in 8 years that the Hawks have lost 8 in a row. And I remember those stretch of games back in 2006. Josh Smith went down, and JJ was basically left by himself to carry the load. Shelden and Marvin couldn't step up.

[NBASupes]

I didn't like the trade for the reasons that are clear today. We are still in the middle but worse off than we were with Joe. Now if we continue to lose a lot of games and get a top 3-5 pick. My reserves will be null as this finally worked.

[Duff_Man]

The Nets are back on the map...at 25-27.Oh Hawks fans.

[benhillboy]

Me and Walt used to essay battle back and forth, circa 2004/2005 regarding Chris Paul.

And what position did you have on CP3? I think he and Nash are two of the most overrated players of their time. Nash is the worst defender of his era easily. If here were a stat for dribble drives allowed, he'd have twice as many as the #2 guy for players with 10+ years of service. All theough the 2000's he was a whipping boy for any and every athletic PG in the league. And not the Roses and Westbrooks of the world,C-list guys like Darren Collison or Jarret Jack have had monster games and wins versus Nash's Suns, who have coincidentally done okay since his departure while the Lakers are free falling. Paul's outside shot and his confidence in it is shaky and trapping his PNR with length pretty much renders him useless. They looked considerably better as a team with Reddick in and him out. All he wants to do is look fiery and active on D (where his lack of length and short legs really hurt him) and rack up flashy assists. That's when he isn't flopping or getting injured. He loses to Jeff Teague every year for God's sakes. Corey Joseph bottled him up on D and Patty Mills dazzled him on high screens. How is that possible/ acceptable?Players throughout history who dominate the ball with assist titles and MVPs go deep in the playoffs annually, that's all there is to it. I would hope all of their fans enjoy their crow when two of the national media's arguably "Best PGs in the League" for years both fail to lead their teams to a single Finals appearance. I'm not looking forward to the Chris Paul farewell tour of him trying to latch on to a contender and failing miserably with covering ground and staying healthy while making a King's Ransom from some dumb GM. I know all the excuses you could come up with for them coming up so short so much: coaching, teammates, the Spurs, injuries from them not being well-conditioned. All weak.The PG position is still as important as ever, the way you approach it relative to your team makes the difference. Fisher, Parker, Billups, and Kidd all won rings without the overall skill level of Nash or Paul because their franchises know the value of moving the ball quickly and putting the distribution onis on the whole team for 48 minutes, not a grossly undersized PG for 36. Edited February 22, 2014 by benhillboy

[nathan2331]

And what position did you have on CP3? I think he and Nash are two of the most overrated players of their time. Nash is the worst defender of his era easily. If here were a stat for dribble drives allowed, he'd have twice as many as the #2 guy for players with 10+ years of service. All theough the 2000's he was a whipping boy for any and every athletic PG in the league. And not the Roses and Westbrooks of the world,C-list guys like Darren Collison or Jarret Jack have had monster games and wins versus Nash's Suns, who have coincidentally done okay since his departure while the Lakers are free falling. Paul's outside shot and his confidence in it is shaky and trapping his PNR with length pretty much renders him useless. They looked considerably better as a team with Reddick in and him out. All he wants to do is look fiery and active on D (where his lack of length and short legs really hurt him) and rack up flashy assists. That's when he isn't flopping or getting injured. He loses to Jeff Teague every year for God's sakes. Corey Joseph bottled him up on D and Patty Mills dazzled him on high screens. How is that possible/ acceptable?Players throughout history who dominate the ball with assist titles and MVPs go deep in the playoffs annually, that's all there is to it. I would hope all of their fans enjoy their crow when two of the national media's arguably "Best PGs in the League" for years both fail to lead their teams to a single Finals appearance. I'm not looking forward to the Chris Paul farewell tour of him trying to latch on to a contender and failing miserably with covering ground and staying healthy while making a King's Ransom from some dumb GM. I know all the excuses you could come up with for them coming up so short so much: coaching, teammates, the Spurs, injuries from them not being well-conditioned. All weak.The PG position is still as important as ever, the way you approach it relative to your team makes the difference. Fisher, Parker, Billups, and Kidd all won rings without the overall skill level of Nash or Paul because their franchises know the value of moving the ball quickly and putting the distribution onis on the whole team for 48 minutes, not a grossly undersized PG for 36.

Preach it, testify! I can't believe there are people who still don't like the Joe Johnson trade. If you don't like what Ferry did after that, I won't complain. But this season, up until this point we've had a better record than the Nets. After this season, they're not going to get any better. They're capped out and their best players are close to retirement/injury prone.We're in a unique situation where the East is so weak we could stumble our way into the 3 seed next year. After an 8 game losing streak, we're 4.5 games behind Toronto. For comparison, the ninth place Grizzlies in the West would be the third seed in the East. This isn't our season I've accepted, but we have a huge window of opportunity in the next few years. Talent in the East has disappeared (through injury/retirement/player movement West), but hasn't been replaced.So if I'm Ferry, I wait this season out (there's nothing else he can do to change the team at this point) and pray for us to get into the lottery. Then in free agency, try my hardest to steal Stephenson away from the Pacers. I think he's trying to win now since we have a shot of winning something even with a sub par team.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The Nets are back on the map...at 25-27.Oh Hawks fans.

- Brooklyn: The Nets were THE most hurt team at the beginning of this season. Hawks fans want to now use injury as an excuse, but the Nets had just about everybody but JJ hurt at one time. Now, only Lopez is hurt, and that Nets team has posted one of the best records since the start of 2014. They're 15 - 6 since the start of 2004 . . and 16 - 10 since Lopez went down.

- Chicago: Lost Derrick Rose ( again ) and traded off Luou Deng. That was arguably 2 of their top 3 players they lost. The result? They're 17 - 7 since the start of 2014 and 15 - 7 since the Deng trade ( that was supposed to lead them to tank ).

Two teams. One that was injury riddled, but got people back ( despite still losing arguably their best offensive weapon ), and started winning. The other, who lost an MVP candidate for the 2nd year in a row and a former All-Star SF by trade, but has started to thrive without both of them.

The Hawks can use the injury excuse as to why they're not competitive these days. But you also have to point to how the GM built the team. When you invest in marginal players, and bypass high level players, you get what you get when your good players start going down to injury.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Preach it, testify! I can't believe there are people who still don't like the Joe Johnson trade. If you don't like what Ferry did after that, I won't complain. But this season, up until this point we've had a better record than the Nets. After this season, they're not going to get any better. They're capped out and their best players are close to retirement/injury prone.We're in a unique situation where the East is so weak we could stumble our way into the 3 seed next year. After an 8 game losing streak, we're 4.5 games behind Toronto. For comparison, the ninth place Grizzlies in the West would be the third seed in the East. This isn't our season I've accepted, but we have a huge window of opportunity in the next few years. Talent in the East has disappeared (through injury/retirement/player movement West), but hasn't been replaced.So if I'm Ferry, I wait this season out (there's nothing else he can do to change the team at this point) and pray for us to get into the lottery. Then in free agency, try my hardest to steal Stephenson away from the Pacers. I think he's trying to win now since we have a shot of winning something even with a sub par team.

Preach it, testify! I can't believe there are people who still don't like the Joe Johnson trade. If you don't like what Ferry did after that, I won't complain. But this season, up until this point we've had a better record than the Nets. After this season, they're not going to get any better. They're capped out and their best players are close to retirement/injury prone.We're in a unique situation where the East is so weak we could stumble our way into the 3 seed next year. After an 8 game losing streak, we're 4.5 games behind Toronto. For comparison, the ninth place Grizzlies in the West would be the third seed in the East. This isn't our season I've accepted, but we have a huge window of opportunity in the next few years. Talent in the East has disappeared (through injury/retirement/player movement West), but hasn't been replaced.So if I'm Ferry, I wait this season out (there's nothing else he can do to change the team at this point) and pray for us to get into the lottery. Then in free agency, try my hardest to steal Stephenson away from the Pacers. I think he's trying to win now since we have a shot of winning something even with a sub par team.

That "window of opportunity" means nothing if the GM isn't willing ( or can't ) bring in higher level talent. We are not going to be able to progress as a team, with Korver playing 34+ minutes a night. We are not going to be able to progress as a team, if we have to rely on Millsap to play spot minutes at center. We are not going to be able to progress as a team if 3 of the GM's 1st round picks aren't even contributing to the team.

And I'll say this again . . . the rest of the league is NOT going to wait for us to get good.

Take Lance Stephenson, for example. What would you pay to get Lance here? And if the Hawks bottom out and miss the playoffs, tell me why Lance would sign with us,and not with these teams . . .

- Indiana: especially if they get to the NBA Finals

- Dallas: because the Mavs have a ton of cap room now and a high profile owner that takes care of his players

- Charlotte: if they make the playoffs and play well, they'll be seen as an up and coming team

- LA Lakers: can play with Kobe + possibly Melo, and play with a historical organization

- Phoenix: who has a young team with a ton of cap space and draft picks to execute a sign and trade if need be

You think Lance is going to look at the Hawks and say to himself . . . "Man, they have a great culture and system there, so that will be the perfect place for me."

The GM has to be able to build this team right, with the right players. Most important though, he has to be able to acquire high quality talent, and be willing to pay for that talent, if need be.

[nathan2331]

That "window of opportunity" means nothing if the GM isn't willing ( or can't ) bring in higher level talent. We are not going to be able to progress as a team, with Korver playing 34+ minutes a night. We are not going to be able to progress as a team, if we have to rely on Millsap to play spot minutes at center. We are not going to be able to progress as a team if 3 of the GM's 1st round picks aren't even contributing to the team. And I'll say this again . . . the rest of the league is NOT going to wait for us to get good. Take Lance Stephenson, for example. What would you pay to get Lance here? And if the Hawks bottom out and miss the playoffs, tell me why Lance would sign with us,and not with these teams . . . - Indiana: especially if they get to the NBA Finals- Dallas: because the Mavs have a ton of cap room now and a high profile owner that takes care of his players- Charlotte: if they make the playoffs and play well, they'll be seen as an up and coming team- LA Lakers: can play with Kobe + possibly Melo, and play with a historical organization- Phoenix: who has a young team with a ton of cap space and draft picks to execute a sign and trade if need be You think Lance is going to look at the Hawks and say to himself . . . "Man, they have a great culture and system there, so that will be the perfect place for me." The GM has to be able to build this team right, with the right players. Most important though, he has to be able to acquire high quality talent, and be willing to pay for that talent, if need be.

What talent do you speak of? Last off season we didn't do poorly, it's just that the market was lacking. Out of the big free agents we missed out on, Jefferson's the only player who (there were concerns about him defensively though) I wanted that we could have gotten. Igoudala wasn't coming here, we couldn't get Howard, and I wanted to stay as far as possible from Ellis.Now yes, we need more talent but in reality there's not much he could have done differently to make us better.As for Stephenson, you're right he probably won't come here. But money talks. So unless the Pacers want to start paying luxury tax, they will have to start making tough decisions as to who they'll keep to pay him. If they get rid of a player like George Hill, who do they replace him with? That team, unless they go back on what's been said as far as paying luxury tax, is going to LOSE someone and it will be hard to replace their contributions. The East may not wait for us, but they can't help being terrible.

[MaceCase]

That "window of opportunity" means nothing if the GM isn't willing ( or can't ) bring in higher level talent. We are not going to be able to progress as a team, with Korver playing 34+ minutes a night. We are not going to be able to progress as a team, if we have to rely on Millsap to play spot minutes at center. We are not going to be able to progress as a team if 3 of the GM's 1st round picks aren't even contributing to the team.

And I'll say this again . . . the rest of the league is NOT going to wait for us to get good.

Take Lance Stephenson, for example. What would you pay to get Lance here? And if the Hawks bottom out and miss the playoffs, tell me why Lance would sign with us,and not with these teams . . .

- Indiana: especially if they get to the NBA Finals

- Dallas: because the Mavs have a ton of cap room now and a high profile owner that takes care of his players

- Charlotte: if they make the playoffs and play well, they'll be seen as an up and coming team

- LA Lakers: can play with Kobe + possibly Melo, and play with a historical organization

- Phoenix: who has a young team with a ton of cap space and draft picks to execute a sign and trade if need be

You think Lance is going to look at the Hawks and say to himself . . . "Man, they have a great culture and system there, so that will be the perfect place for me."

The GM has to be able to build this team right, with the right players. Most important though, he has to be able to acquire high quality talent, and be willing to pay for that talent, if need be.

I remember this one guy, named Joe Johnson I think. He left a contender to come to a 13 win Hawks team for.......what exactly?

Indiana picked up Turner for a reason just in case Stephenson prices himself out of their range or someone pulls a Daryl Morey and Gilbert Arenas provisions them similar to what happened with Asik and Lin.

Dallas is a bit iffy considering that they are already paying Monta to play SG for them.

Charlotte has attracted but one dreg off the free agency market... I see no reason why they would succeed at what the Hawks haven't in the past decade.

Phoenix will be working on resigning this other combo guard that they traded for by the name of Eric Bledsoe to continue playing next to their other combo by the name of Goran Dragic.

LA is intriguing but they won't be able to afford Kobe and Melo and why would that intrigue a SG knowing that he will be behind the depth chart of two egomaniacs?

So let's see, money, opportunity to be the face of the franchise, market and location and for a team that prior to this year was periodically in the playoffs. I mean it's just sooooooo easy to place a team like Charlotte ahead of the Hawks given their second ever playoff appearance pedigree. Wait, I forget all that will change once they take over the Hornets history.

[Randy]

My only question is "Danny, what have you done for me lately?"

[turnermx]

The LA Lakers with Kobe and Melo? That team would be hard to watch lolSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MaceCase]

I remember this one guy, named Joe Johnson I think. He left a contender to come to a 13 win Hawks team for.......what exactly? Indiana picked up Turner for a reason just in case Stephenson prices himself out of their range or someone pulls a Daryl Morey and Gilbert Arenas provisions them similar to what happened with Asik and Lin .

Ah just realized Lance has played 4 seasons so as to make him ineligible for the GA provision. I was confused over the amount of years he's started to how long he's actually been in the league.Either way, the Pacers deadline deal was done to open them up to options in case Lance demands 13mil whereas Turner demands 8. Them being a contender doesn't mean that they'll start opening their wallets as OKC has already demonstrated with Harden.

[MaceCase]

- Brooklyn: The Nets were THE most hurt team at the beginning of this season. Hawks fans want to now use injury as an excuse, but the Nets had just about everybody but JJ hurt at one time. Now, only Lopez is hurt, and that Nets team has posted one of the best records since the start of 2014. They're 15 - 6 since the start of 2004 . . and 16 - 10 since Lopez went down.

- Chicago: Lost Derrick Rose ( again ) and traded off Luou Deng. That was arguably 2 of their top 3 players they lost. The result? They're 17 - 7 since the start of 2014 and 15 - 7 since the Deng trade ( that was supposed to lead them to tank ).

Two teams. One that was injury riddled, but got people back ( despite still losing arguably their best offensive weapon ), and started winning. The other, who lost an MVP candidate for the 2nd year in a row and a former All-Star SF by trade, but has started to thrive without both of them.

The Hawks can use the injury excuse as to why they're not competitive these days. But you also have to point to how the GM built the team. When you invest in marginal players, and bypass high level players, you get what you get when your good players start going down to injury.

Brooklyn had a team so deep that even their 10th man was considered starter quality in the league. Despite them being a relatively new team with a few new additions they still fielded the more talented team on most nights even when injury depleted.

Chicago is a team that has been together for YEARS and have played together for numerous stretches without Rose too. His going down again meant nothing to them as they've been through it before, for an entire season even, and they already had Deng's replacement groomed and ready to go in Butler.

The Hawks were neither a truly deep team nor a team that has played (or coached) long together given that after Al went down only Kyle, Jeffrey and Louis were returning rotation members from the previous year and 2 of those guys weren't on the roster the year before that. No, you can't blame the GM for not having 150 million dollars to invest into the roster nor having a time machine to have his current crew play together for over 3 seasons so both examples are irrelevant to the Hawks.

Edited February 22, 2014 by MaceCase

[DJlaysitup]

... We are not going to be able to progress as a team, with Korver playing 34+ minutes a night. We are not going to be able to progress as a team, if we have to rely on Millsap to play spot minutes at center.

Bingo TNCR. You hit that one right on the button.

Kyle Korver is what he is - a very dangerous three point shooter either off the bench or as a starter with moderate minutes. The "streak" is almost a joke at this point. Millsap is a helluva player but he never was a "stopper" in the middle (although he has done some of that). Millsap should be a very effective complimentary player on a good team alongside a powerful center.

I just don't know about this team...I'm beginning to think that at least dumb old BK had a plan...ineffective plan...but at least he had a plan.

We just seem to be treading water at this point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdNsltQXTVU

Edited February 22, 2014 by DJlaysitup

[DJlaysitup]

The JJ deal is nothing but a salary dump, because Ferry didn’t use it to bring in another significant player. If Dennis doesn’t pan out, the next few years for the Hawks could really be a mediocre experience. Moreso than during the Joe Johnson era.

Yep...screwing up isn't like the Chicken Pox...it can happen multiple times and you (Hawks) do not get immunity.

(note for those who do not know about "pox"...since I'm a CDC dude. There are three types of "pox"...Chicken pox, Cow pox (which they make the vaccines from) and Small pox. Chicken pox will give kids a bad few days, Cow pox is mainly an animal disease, and Small pox will kill you. Once you have one (and survive) you are immune to all three. This is why people used to have "Chicken pox parties". If a child had Chicken pox all the folks in the neighborhood would want their kids to get it too. Not to ph_ck with them...but to make them immune to Small pox...which is deadly...or was at the time.

Edited February 22, 2014 by DJlaysitup

[MaceCase]

Sneak me out a vial of small pox, DJ. I have some bearded friend$ that would be very thankful.