Teague has been a dominate force these last 4 games.

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

That's hilarious! @JTB knows he's one of my favorites on here, just giving him a little grief about one of my annoyances.

I nO. poOr GraMer sPelIn n iNternEt liNgo cAn B RLy aNOyiN yA nO? cAnt evan tAke postaz suriliously when dey tAlk poorlee. :D LOLZSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[IheartVolt]

I have been wondering how an experiment with teague at the 2 guard position would work out. Surely his quickness would cause major issues for the guy guarding him , but would it all cancel out for lack of fruits on the defensive end of the floor. Just something to think aboutdennis or mack at point and teague / lou at the 2DMC and Korver at SF with Korver getting minutes at the 2 as well

[Admin]

I have been wondering how an experiment with teague at the 2 guard position would work out. Surely his quickness would cause major issues for the guy guarding him , but would it all cancel out for lack of fruits on the defensive end of the floor. Just something to think aboutdennis or mack at point and teague / lou at the 2DMC and Korver at SF with Korver getting minutes at the 2 as well

It would be like putting Josh Smith at the SG position. Essentially the same as you have a SG who cannot shoot.

[IheartVolt]

I mean Teague at sg could be no worse defending then Korverat sg right? I am not dogging Kyle either cause he does give effort

[IheartVolt]

It would be like putting Josh Smith at the SG position. Essentially the same as you have a SG who cannot shoot.

There is alot of truth to that , but we have lots of shooters on this team. As long as Teague could drive to the basket he would be causing disruption. May as well add his shot has looked better as late

[Admin]

I mean Teague at sg could be no worse defending then Korverat sg right? I am not dogging Kyle either cause he does give effort

Teague defending at SG would be worse as he's lazy as a defender whereas Kyle at least attempts to defend to the best of his ability and he's a decent system defender. There's a reason why he's easily got the highest on court / off court on our team. Kyle makes a really positive difference on the team. But if I could swap him for a more complete SG I'd do it in a heartbeat, as long as we could keep Kyle coming off the bench.

[Admin]

There is alot of truth to that , but we have lots of shooters on this team. As long as Teague could drive to the basket he would becausing disruption. May as well add his shot has looked better as late

That type of player doesn't fit in this system. We need guys who can make intelligent passes and spread the floor and who ran set picks and run off of screens. Ball dominant guards aren't what we need. Teague would be fine at PG if he could defend better (which he has been better this year than in years past) and if he could consistently knock down an outside jumper, thereby keeping the defense honest.

[AHF]

It would be like putting Josh Smith at the SG position. Essentially the same as you have a SG who cannot shoot.

To his credit, Teague has both shot considerably better than Josh from long range. (His career average is Josh's career high).

I see it being more of a disaster on defense than offense.

[Admin]

To his credit, Teague has both shot considerably better than Josh from long range. (His career average is Josh's career high).

I see it being more of a disaster on defense than offense.

You need a curve for the positions with Josh being a PF and Teague being a PG. Teague should shoot significantly better from distance than Josh, but he doesn't.

It would absolutely be a disaster on defense as well though.

[AHF]

You need a curve for the positions with Josh being a PF and Teague being a PG. Teague should shoot significantly better from distance than Josh, but he doesn't.

It would absolutely be a disaster on defense as well though.

I consider 6% to be a significant difference whether you are talking PG or PF. Josh's 27% of 3pt shots = 40% efg% while Teague's 33% of 3pt shots = roughly 50% efg%. I also like that he goes to the hole since this opens up opportunities to pass to others. That said, you know I am not a fan at all of Teague's shooting this season. I just see his shot selection as being less of an issue and I think he only needs to tick his % up a couple of points from his career average to be respectable from 3pt range while Josh needs a huge improvement to justify even thinking about a long jumper.

I think the positions are less important than the volume of shots, which are actually fairly similar. Doesn't really matter if it is Ryan Anderson or Stephen Curry spreading the floor if they are shooting the same and playing the same role.

[Admin]

I consider 6% to be a significant difference whether you are talking PG or PF. Josh's 27% of 3pt shots = 40% efg% while Teague's 33% of 3pt shots = roughly 50% efg%. I also like that he goes to the hole since this opens up opportunities to pass to others. That said, you know I am not a fan at all of Teague's shooting this season. I just see his shot selection as being less of an issue and I think he only needs to tick his % up a couple of points from his career average to be respectable from 3pt range while Josh needs a huge improvement to justify even thinking about a long jumper.

I think the positions are less important than the volume of shots, which are actually fairly similar. Doesn't really matter if it is Ryan Anderson or Stephen Curry spreading the floor if they are shooting the same and playing the same role.

I'm not just talking about 3pt shots. I'm talking about anything outside of the paint. Teague is one of the worst starting guards I've ever seen at jump shooting.

Bottom line Teague at SG would be bad. Teague at PG is better, but not by that much... unless his recent play is a sign of things to come on a regular basis.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The following is from hoopsstats.com

It's simply a look at our main rotation players ( including the injured Horford ), and the production they provide . . vs the guy they are going up against. If they outproduce the guy, they get a "win". If they don't, they get a "loss". If both have the same efficiency number, they get a "draw" or tie.

To qualify for a win, loss. or draw, a player has to have played 25 or more minutes in a game. It is based off of the NBA Efficiency statistic, which is a basic measure of production. Teague's numbers will be highlighted in RED

Basic Wins/Loss Matchup Record for Each Player

Horford: 16 - 10 . . . ( .615 )

Mack: 6 - 4 . . . ( .600 )

Teague: 28 - 19 . . . ( .596 )

Millsap: 24 - 22 . . . ( .522 )

Carroll: 15 - 21 . . . ( .417 )

Korver: 15 - 23 . . . ( .394 )

Williams: 6 - 12 . . . ( .333 )

Scott: 2 - 6 . . . ( .333 )

Team Record When Player Wins Matchup

Korver: won 15 matchups . . 11 - 4 . . . ( .733 )

Horford: won 16 matchups . . 11 - 5 . . . ( .688 )

Millsap: won 24 matchups . . . 16 - 8 . . . ( .667 )

Carroll: won 15 matchups . . . . 9 - 6 . . . ( .600 )

Teague: won 28 matchups . . 16 - 12 . . . ( .571 )

Scott: won 2 matchups . . . . . . 1 - 1 . . . ( .500 )

Mack: won 6 matchups . . . . . . 2 - 4 . . . ( .333 )

Williams won 6 matchups . . . .2 - 4 . . . ( .333 )

Team Record When Player Loses Matchup

Williams: lost 12 matchups . . . 1 - 11 . . ( .083 )

Scott: lost 6 matchups . . . . . . .1 - 5 . . . ( .167 )

Mack: lost 4 matchups . . . . . . 1 - 3 . . . ( .250 )

Teague: lost 19 matchups . . . . 5 - 14 . . ( .263 )

Korver: lost 23 matchups . . . . . 7 - 16 . . . ( .304 )

Millsap: lost 22 matchups . . . . . 7 - 15 . . . ( .318 )

Horford: lost 10 matchups . . . . .4 - 6 . . . ( .400 )

Carroll: lost 21 matchups . . . . . 9 - 12 . . . ( .429 )

Games In Which Player Played Even in Matchup

Korver: 15

Carroll: 8

Millsap: 7

Horford: 2

Scott: 2

Mack: 1

Teague: 1

Williams: 0

Wins/Total Games Matchup Record . . ( when playing 25+ minutes )

Teague: 28 wins / 48 total games . . . ( .583 )

Mack: 6 wins / 11 total games . . . . . . ( .545 )

Horford: 16 wins / 30 total games . . . ( .533 )

Millsap: 24 wins / 53 total games . . . ( .453 )

Carroll: 15 wins / 44 total games . . . ( .341 )

Williams: 6 wins / 18 total games . . . ( .333 )

Korver: 15 wins / 53 total games . . . . ( .283 )

Scott: 2 wins / 10 total games . . . . . . ( .200 )

People continue to worry about Teague's play, when they should be looking at some other people. The only thing that Teague has proven since Horford went down, is that maybe he isn't able to take on the responsibility of a #1 type of scorer. And that's what some of you want him to be . . . a guy who can play like a #1 option.

He can't do it. He isn't Tony Parker.

But what he does, is consistently outplay his opponent on most nights, unlike some of the other guys on this team ( who get a complete pass ). They get a pass because fans have little expectations for that player. But for Teague, people want him playing like a star.

People should be happy with that dude averaging 16 ppg and 7 assists. Those are numbers we haven't seen out of a PG since the days of Mookie Blaylock. Can he play better? Yes. But so can a whole lot of other people.

There are people on this team ( and in the front office ) that fans simply refuse to hold accountable for their play on the court ( or in their decision making off the court ). They'd rather target and dog Teague, than to cite the REAL PROBLEMS with this team.

[Diesel]

But what he does, is consistently outplay his opponent on most nights, unlike some of the other guys on this team ( who get a complete pass ). They get a pass because fans have little expectations for that player. But for Teague, people want him playing like a star.

People should be happy with that dude averaging 16 ppg and 7 assists. Those are numbers we haven't seen out of a PG since the days of Mookie Blaylock. Can he play better? Yes. But so can a whole lot of other people.

There are people on this team ( and in the front office ) that fans simply refuse to hold accountable for their play on the court ( or in their decision making off the court ). They'd rather target and dog Teague, than to cite the REAL PROBLEMS with this team.

This...

[Admin]

I have no idea who this hoopsstats.com site is or what their "Efficiency" number means, but I'm skeptical to say the least.

Tony Parker 20-16

Damian Lillard 23-27

Russell Westbrook 14-13

Deron Williams 16-13

So yeah, I'm not buying those numbers or putting any legitimacy into them. I'm MUCH more inclined to believe stats from NBA.com, where they have a handy NET rating stat that lists Teague at +0.3. The guys above?

Tony Parker +5.5

Damian Lillard +6.0

Russell Westbrook +6.1

Deron Williams +3.2

This looks a hell of a lot more accurate to me going by what we know of these players and what we know of Teague. Again another major stat that shows him right around average.

NET Rating is the difference in a players Offensive and Defensive Ratings. The formula for this is Offensive Rating (number of points scored per 100 possessions) - Defensive Rating (number of points allowed per 100 possessions)

[Jody23]

It's just his personality. Some guys have the drive to succeed and to work everyday. Some guys are like a light switch - some days he's on, others he isn't. Some days he cares, others he just wants to chill at the crib. Coaches have been telling him for years to stay aggressive, to stay on the attack. He could be 20 & 10 PG if he had the drive and motivation of CP3. He could be the best PG in the EC. Fact is, he doesn't. It's the mental hurdle with Teague to want to stay aggressive. He isn't afraid or nervous or anything like that. It's just he has no desire to work for 82 games a season or to be the leader. I'm not saying he isn't competitive, just that he lacks desire. Teague would rather succeed as a team with guys ahead of him. To be the third option which worked before Horf got hurt.

Teague with drive & motivation = Kyrie Irving. Simple as that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Teague with drive and motivation still does not equal Kyrie Irving.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I have no idea who this hoopsstats.com site is or what their "Efficiency" number means, but I'm skeptical to say the least.

Tony Parker 20-16

Damian Lillard 23-27

Russell Westbrook 14-13

Deron Williams 16-13

So yeah, I'm not buying those numbers or putting any legitimacy into them. I'm MUCH more inclined to believe stats from NBA.com, where they have a handy NET rating stat that lists Teague at +0.3. The guys above?

Tony Parker +5.5

Damian Lillard +6.0

Russell Westbrook +6.1

Deron Williams +3.2

This looks a hell of a lot more accurate to me going by what we know of these players and what we know of Teague. Again another major stat that shows him right around average.

That's cool if you don't buy the numbers. But it tells exactly what is going on, not only with individual players, but with the team as a whole.

The NET Rating is good when you want to compare players to other players. No problem with that stat, if used in the right context. But even that stat isn't an "end all, be all", like most stats aren't.

Amongst guards, it has Andre Iguodala listed as #1 . . over #2 Paul George. More concerning, is that Mario Chalmers ( due to his stellar defensive rating ), is rated over Chris Paul. Matter of fact, here are how the PGs look

Chalmers - 10.5

Hill - 10.1

Paul - 10.0

R. Jackson - 10.0

Beverly - 9.2

Curry - 8.9

Dragic - 7.4

Rubio - 6.3

Lillard - 6.0

Parker - 5.5

So are you trying to tell me that you're hanging your hat on a stat that has George Hill listed above Chris Paul, Tony Parker, and Stephen Curry?

I KNOW that Teague is closer to an average PG ( in a very heavy PG league ). And that's my point. Why is the blame being placed on an "average PG" and expecting him to play at an elite level, instead of just accepting what Teague is? A good scoring PG on most nights, that can distribute the basketball.

The Win - Loss profiles cited on hoopsstats.com are simply showing who is winning the individual matchup on a game by game basis. More important, it shows what the team does when he wins or loses his "matchup".

Let's look at the Blazers top 6 players in the same way I did the Hawks. The Blazers rely heavily on their starters + Mo Williams, so they're the most likely players to log 25+ minutes. I'll do the basic Win-Loss Matchups

Aldridge: 35 - 12

Batum: 30 - 19

Matthews: 25 - 24

Lilliard: 23 - 27

Lopez: 18 - 26

Mo Williams: 6 - 13

This doesn't mean that Lillard is a bad PG. What it MAY mean though, is that either a high level of production isn't needed on a nightly basis in order for the Blazers to win games, because they have other guys who can have big games . . ( which is true ).

Or it may mean that Lillard is weak defensively, and let's other PGs abuse him on occasion . . ( which is also true ).

Take Lillard's last matchup that he lost, against Utah's Trey Burke. He actually had a good looking game ( 28 pts - 7 asst ). But he brought his efficiency number down by shooting 11 - 28 FG. Burke, on the other hand, had a very good all around game ( 21 pts - 7 asst - 6 rebs ), and shot 8 - 16 FG including 3 - 5 from deep.

Despite Lillard losing the efficiency battle vs Burke, the Blazers still won the game due to Lopez's monster 33 point game.

The key to the success of the Blazers, is that they have 4 guys who can win their matchup at least 40% of the time every night, sometimes by huge margins. Their top 4 guys have already won 20 matchups, with Lopez about to join that club. When you're playing high minutes, you have to outwork your opponent.

Contrast that with the Hawks, who would only see Teague, Millsap, and Horford ( if healthy ) do this feat. With no Horford in the mix, it puts that much more pressure on Teague and Millsap to consistently win their matcup ( sometimes by a big margin ), because no one else on the team can consistently do it.

This is why all of the negativity that is being heaped on Teague is unjustified. People are asking him to play at an elite level, when they KNOW that he is not an elite level PG. Meanwhile, others on the team run hot and cold, play piss poor defense, leave people wide open in transition, and never get called out on it. Carroll is at least trying to step up on a consistent basis. Can't say the same for others though.

Here are the Win - Loss profiles of our main guys since Feb 1st:

Mack: 3 - 1

Carroll: 5 - 4

Teague: 5 - 5

Millsap: 4 - 5

Brand: 2 - 4

Scott: 1 - 3

Williams: 3 - 7

Korver: 2 - 7

But people want to crap all over Teague? You better look at other guys as well.

[Admin]

North that was a whole lot of post to basically just make me again say, I don't buy any stat that lists the guys I listed above, the elite PGs, as being around .500 or under in their one on one matchups. I'm not saying NET rating is the end all be all either but at least the #'s on the elite PGs make sense.

Getting back to Teague though, he's had to have an entire month plus this week and I'm sure a few other weeks as well just to be an average PG this year and somehow that doesn't alarm you guys. That's what I want to know is how anyone could be happy with the average to below average production that he's giving. Right now WS/48 seems to be the most accurate cumulative stat I've seen out there and it's got Teague trending down again this year, after doing that last year and in both years he's below what's considered average for the league. That is freaking alarming for a guy we're committing 24 million to over the next 3 years. A guy 5 years into his career who is somehow getting worse? Alarming! Now I know you say that he's being asked to do a lot this year and sure that's fair but please tell me what the excuse for last year was, when he wasn't a whole lot better but had Horford and still had Josh? He was barely above average last year and down a pretty good bit from his career high the year before. I just don't get why you guys are so happy with a PG who half the time doesn't play D, is lazy on fighting through picks, can't shoot the 3, can't shoot from outside of the paint, and doesn't have good PG vision at all and yet we're paying him 8 million per season. Why does he deserve praise? He's the 3rd highest paid guy on the team and he has major expectations placed on him this year because of his contract and he's gotten worse instead of getting better. Alarming!

I do appreciate the time you put into researching your post though so thank you for that.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Just looking at a few other teams

MIAMI Won - Loss Profiles

Lebron: 40 - 4

Wade: 27 - 10

Chalmers: 20 - 19

Bosh: 15 - 24

Allen: 14 - 17

The Heat are 13 - 2 when Bosh wins his matchup. But one of the casualties of having Lebron and Wade on your team, is that you don't have a chance to put up big numbers on a nightly basis. And since he's kind of soft defensively, other players will outwork Bosh on occasion. But we all know what makes the Heat go. When Lebron has only lost 4 matchups all year, and dominated most of those matchups, they're hard to beat.

(( NOTE: One of those losses came vs Millsap, who played a very high level game vs Lebron ))

Indiana Win - Loss profile

George: 41 - 10

Stephenson: 35 - 11

West: 28 - 19

Hibbert: 18 - 22

Hill: 14 - 26

Hibbert winning his matchup is of little consequence when it comes to the Pacers winning games. They're 16 - 2 when he wins his matchup, and 20 - 2 when he loses his matchup. With a borderline superstar on his team in George, and 2 other guys who can score and defend in Stephenson and West, it's not imperative for Hibbert to win that individual matchup. All he has to do is play his role. However, If George were to go down, I don't know if Hibbert could flip the script and elevate his game offensively.

Charlotte Win - Loss profile

Walker: 26 - 21

Jefferson: 21 - 16

Henderson: 19 - 25

McRoberts: 19 - 27

Kidd Gilchrist: 8 - 10

Tolliver: 1 - 17

This is what happens when you have a guy coming off the bench ( or starting ) that has to play a lot of minutes, but is giving you very little on offense and defense. Charlotte was kind of desperate for any kind of player when MKG went down. But unlike MKG, Tolliver ( as we know ) can't stop anybody . . and he's streaky offensively.

Chicago Win - Loss profile

Noah: 31 - 14

Butler: 23 - 11

Dunleavy: 20 - 15

Boozer: 17 - 16

Gibson: 17 - 19

Hinrich: 10 - 24

Noah has gone into straight BEAST MODE since Jan 1st. He's 20 - 2 vs opposing centers since then, only losing to Pau Gasol and Al Jefferson . . . but the Bulls still won both of those games. Noah has turned into a Point Center, while also still being the defensive anchor for the Bulls. With the Bulls though, the barometer is usually Mike Dunleavy. If he's shooting the ball well and outproducing his man, the Bulls win. But if he has games like he did tonight, they normally lose.

So let's review Atlanta one more time, without Horford

Teague: 28 - 19

Millsap: 24 - 22

Carroll: 15 - 21

Korver: 15 - 23

Mack: 6 - 4

Williams: 6 - 12

Even during this losing streak, Teague was one of the few guys who could elevate his game to outplay his opponent. When a guy goes off like he did in Phoenix, but the team still loses, you have to look at other people and ask why can't they consistently elevate their games, or even play above their heads every once in a while?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

North that was a whole lot of post to basically just make me again say, I don't buy any stat that lists the guys I listed above, the elite PGs, as being around .500 or under in their one on one matchups. I'm not saying NET rating is the end all be all either but at least the #'s on the elite PGs make sense.

(a) Getting back to Teague though, he's had to have an entire month plus this week and I'm sure a few other weeks as well just to be an average PG this year and somehow that doesn't alarm you guys. That's what I want to know is how anyone could be happy with the average to below average production that he's giving.

(b) Right now WS/48 seems to be the most accurate cumulative stat I've seen out there and it's got Teague trending down again this year, after doing that last year and in both years he's below what's considered average for the league. That is freaking alarming for a guy we're committing 24 million to over the next 3 years. A guy 5 years into his career who is somehow getting worse? Alarming!

© Now I know you say that he's being asked to do a lot this year and sure that's fair but please tell me what the excuse for last year was, when he wasn't a whole lot better but had Horford and still had Josh? He was barely above average last year and down a pretty good bit from his career high the year before.

(d) I just don't get why you guys are so happy with a PG who half the time doesn't play D, is lazy on fighting through picks, can't shoot the 3, can't shoot from outside of the paint, and doesn't have good PG vision at all and yet we're paying him 8 million per season. Why does he deserve praise? He's the 3rd highest paid guy on the team and he has major expectations placed on him this year because of his contract and he's gotten worse instead of getting better. Alarming!

I do appreciate the time you put into researching your post though so thank you for that.

(a) - I thought people didn't care about the season and want us to tank? And the play of the entire team ( for the most part ) has gone downhill since late January. So I don't know why all of the focus is on Teague all of a sudden. I don't think anybody is celebrating his play in February. But it's possible that he simply had a bad month, and will get it back on track in March. I was a BIG TIME skeptic of Teague in those first 2 years. But I've accepted him to be what he is . . a score first PG who has improved his court vision somewhat. I never expected him to improve his shot, because his release is too low.

If it makes everybody feel better, he's averaging 27.3 ppg - 6 asst - 3.5 rebs . . is shooting 58% FG . . and averaging almost 7 FTA in his last 4 games. So maybe the dude just had a bad month, like the rest of the team.

(b) - IF you have a problem with what Teague received, blame the GM. Also blame him for not being able to pull off a deal to bring in an asset in replace of Teague. Also blame him if our young future PG from Germany can't even get out on the court, to prove that he can replace Teague. All I can say is that the entire team was better when Horford was on the floor with them. But I don't expect Teague to prove that he can be Tony Parker 2.0 anytime soon. He is what he is.

© - Well . . . Josh WAS the issue last year. Josh was the guy who wouldn't pass the ball to Teague after getting a rebound, and take the ball up the court himself. Josh was the guy who can't make open shots, to improve Teague's assist numbers off spot up shooting jumpshots. Josh wasn't the entire problem, just a piece of the problem. In the end though, Teague has to grow into a man, and take control of the team himself.

(d) - Overall, he does deserve praise. If Bud can get praise for his coaching, despite this team playing at 2004 levels, Teague can get praise too. Everybody seems to be getting praise, but Teague. Why the bull's eye is just on him, and not on everybody else on the team ( and in the front office ), is beyond me. If you're going to shoot Teague, you gotta take out everybody else.

[JTB]

Not to stick my nose into this heated argument between you two (Dolf and North) but I agree with both of you.Dolf- your basically saying...hey this Teague guy should be better than this because below/average to average play in buds system just ain't going to cut it.North- your trying to tell us....hey why the hell did you guys expect more from an average point guard?...don't suddenly get all mad now at Teague, blame your GM ferry.Now let me add my 2 cents...if I'm not mistaking I believe from the time Teague was resigned most were happy because Teague was getting a well deserved opportunity to become the BIG dog of the team! He showed some good flashes the last 2 years and the assumption was that he could possibly be the real deal with josh smith off the team as many thought smith was holding him back.So now the season starts and you got a young kid that has the skill set to be a very good point guard and all star talent yet he doesn't become anything close to that...should hawk fans be upset? I think so! Ferry showed faith in a young kid who we know can be a all star talent yet he shys away from WANTING to be good. Do you know how many players would love to get the opportunity Teague has received? The opportunity to be the man, the leader, the star player of a franchise?...Not too many...this explains Dolfs point. We gave a player a rare opportunity and he shys away from it like a bi*chNow north has a good point too...maybe we shouldn't have put so much hope in Teague and now that he has failed our expectations...why not get mad at ferry? See I also agree with Norths point of view. Why aren't we blaming ferry by now? I mean clearly he too was sold on Teague like us fans...does ferry even have a plan? What about a back up plan? Did ferry also think just like us fans that Teague was going to be a all star caliber player?I always thought if Teague ended up failing we would immediately pull him and start developing Dennis but as it looks to me ferry or bud never really had a backup plan! The season has went to hell yet they continue to play Teague over playing a rookie and letting him make his mistakes. You can't tell me that, that's some kind of plan or strategy. The truth is that ferry doesn't even know what to do with this franchise right now!...I'm going to stop before I post a "ferry and his bogus quotes.....should hawks fans believe him?" thread.

Edited March 4, 2014 by JTB