Bleacher Report grades coach Bud an A-

[TheNorthCydeRises]

This article is about our coach. Not our GM or ownership. What were your expectations for Bud with this roster ? Top 3 team in the East ? You're being irrational.

What was my first comment in this thread?That I like Bud ... but giving him an A- is being way too generous.I never had any expectation for the Hawks to be top 3 in the East ( despite us being just that for the first 35 games or so ).It's just that no one who is objectively watching this team all year, could give Bud an A-. You can give him a B, but not an A-.An A = outstanding.Bud hasn't been outstanding this year. Good? Yes.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

...and this is the problem with posters like you. You only see the here and now and what has happened. I have no clue who our Paul George or Lance Stephenson (DMC?) will be, but I do know that we have our Frank Vogel in Bud. I do know we have Horford (as a player and a trade chip) and ever since Ferry took over being the GM, we aren't hampered by bad contracts and poor culture. We aren't just a team that's just a bunch of street ballers free-wheeling out on the court that's lead by ISO-Woody or sheepdog Drew. Ferry has a culture in place. Bud has a system in place. Step back and view the whole forest and stop being small-minded... The games, whether we win or lose, doesn't matter. Teams in transition don't win a lot of games nor do they have expectations. Stop looking at the win/loss columns and box scores because they don't matter. This current roster does not matter because they are nothing more than trade chips and stopgaps. Really, the offseason is when our season actually begins. We are rebuilding and going through a transition between eras. Ferry has gotten rid of the bad contracts and attitudes. He has assets that can be used as trade chips that other teams want. He has this team primed and ready to jump on the next Harden situation or disgruntled star (like CP3 to LAC or Melo to NY or Kyrie/Westbrook/Love to ...), but he isn't going to make a trade just to make one. He also isn't going to sign Bynum in the offseason to just appease the fan base. If in five seasons we are no better than we are today then I will question Ferry with everyone else, but for now, the 82 games between offseasons just doesn't matter.

Our offseason schedule:

[*]Draft for need

[*]Go after free agents

[*]If we miss out on top FA's, then collect trade chips

[*]Develop young talent in SL, camp, and exhibition

And if you look at Indy's team, the only big free agent signing they made was West. Every other player was someone they developed or traded for. Stephenson is their product. George is their product (4th season). Turner was snagged in a trade of Granger. They got George Hill in exchanged for Kawhi Leonard. They got Hibbert from Toronto and developed him. Scola was brought over in a trade.

Basically, we are in the Joey Harrington/Chris Redman days of the Falcons... Just a QB to get us from Vick to Ryan.

To get your Vick, you have to bottom out and get a top 5 pick.

This is not football. This is basketball. If you don't bring in the right type of talent, you could easily turn into the Minnesota Timberwolves. They haven't made the playoffs since before Garrett left. They got their lottery superstar, but no other player is All Star worthy. So they run the "Hamster Wheel Of Hope" and wish for everything to come together.

After 9 years of not making the playoffs, it hasn't. And this year may be #10.

All that talk about culture doesn't mean a damn thing if you don't have multiple players who can get the job done on a nightly basis.

So who do you want this off season that you think we can realistically get? Toss out some names.

What do you want to see happen this offseason?

[AHF]

...and this is the problem with posters like you. You only see the here and now and what has happened. I have no clue who our Paul George or Lance Stephenson (DMC?) will be, but I do know that we have our Frank Vogel in Bud. I do know we have Horford (as a player and a trade chip) and ever since Ferry took over being the GM, we aren't hampered by bad contracts and poor culture. We aren't just a team that's just a bunch of street ballers free-wheeling out on the court that's lead by ISO-Woody or sheepdog Drew. Ferry has a culture in place. Bud has a system in place. Step back and view the whole forest and stop being small-minded... The games, whether we win or lose, doesn't matter. Teams in transition don't win a lot of games nor do they have expectations. Stop looking at the win/loss columns and box scores because they don't matter. This current roster does not matter because they are nothing more than trade chips and stopgaps. Really, the offseason is when our season actually begins. We are rebuilding and going through a transition between eras. Ferry has gotten rid of the bad contracts and attitudes. He has assets that can be used as trade chips that other teams want. He has this team primed and ready to jump on the next Harden situation or disgruntled star (like CP3 to LAC or Melo to NY or Kyrie/Westbrook/Love to ...), but he isn't going to make a trade just to make one. He also isn't going to sign Bynum in the offseason to just appease the fan base. If in five seasons we are no better than we are today then I will question Ferry with everyone else, but for now, the 82 games between offseasons just doesn't matter.

Our offseason schedule:

[*]Draft for need

[*]Go after free agents

[*]If we miss out on top FA's, then collect trade chips

[*]Develop young talent in SL, camp, and exhibition

And if you look at Indy's team, the only big free agent signing they made was West. Every other player was someone they developed or traded for. Stephenson is their product. George is their product (4th season). Turner was snagged in a trade of Granger. They got George Hill in exchanged for Kawhi Leonard. They got Hibbert from Toronto and developed him. Scola was brought over in a trade.

Basically, we are in the Joey Harrington/Chris Redman days of the Falcons... Just a QB to get us from Vick to Ryan.

Except instead of having the #3 pick, we will have fought our way to the #12-15 pick. Ryan was never going to be available in that range.

[EazyRoc]

What was my first comment in this thread?That I like Bud ... but giving him an A- is being way too generous.I never had any expectation for the Hawks to be top 3 in the East ( despite us being just that for the first 35 games or so ).It's just that no one who is objectively watching this team all year, could give Bud an A-. You can give him a B, but not an A-.An A = outstanding.Bud hasn't been outstanding this year. Good? Yes.

yes, you can objectively give Bud an A. You give this roster to another coach and we probably would have half as many wins as we do. He's taken a good player in Milsap and made him an All Star caliber player. Kyle Korver, in my eyes, has never been more effective and is now getting Olympic consideration. Al Horford and Teague have played their best under Bud. I think he's made the most of the roster. Sloan, Jackson, or Pop couldn't have done much more than he's done with this team.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

yes, you can objectively give Bud an A. You give this roster to another coach and we probably would have half as many wins as we do. He's taken a good player in Milsap and made him an All Star caliber player. Kyle Korver, in my eyes, has never been more effective and is now getting Olympic consideration. Al Horford and Teague have played their best under Bud. I think he's made the most of the roster. Sloan, Jackson, or Pop couldn't have done much more than he's done with this team.

Wow.Well that ends my discussion in this thread. Now Bud is so good, that future Hall of Fame coaches couldn't have done a better job.Wow.

[AHF]

Wow.Well that ends my discussion in this thread. Now Bud is so good, that future Hall of Fame coaches couldn't have done a better job.Wow.

There is some definite homerism there but don't get too caught up in it. We all think Bud has done a plus job this year so don't get too caught up in B versus A-.

[DJlaysitup]

3.325 on a 4.0 point scale...but the season isn't over yet.

[EazyRoc]

Wow.Well that ends my discussion in this thread. Now Bud is so good, that future Hall of Fame coaches couldn't have done a better job.Wow.

Yes really. What do you think Pop, Sloan, or Jackson could have done with this roster ? You are not offering up any expectations or anything rational to back your statements up with. Maybe we should start pretending that Sloan didn't have 2 Hall of Famers for most of his career and Pop had 2 Hall of Famers and 2 All Stars for most of his career. Your discussion in this thread amounts to a child throwing a wild tantrum. A lot of noise but nothing that makes sense. You're crying that Bud isn't doing an exceptional job because the team doesnt have talent and we've been losing after our best player on an already talentless team goes down for the season. What statement are you making that actually makes sense and is relevant to the topic at hand ?

[EazyRoc]

There is some definite homerism there but don't get too caught up in it. We all think Bud has done a plus job this year so don't get too caught up in B versus A-.

Not really homerism. Those coaches were blessed with Hall of Fame players and rosters that are very easily going to lead to wins. You show me a year where any of those coaches have led a comparable roster to more wins and ill accept the homer label.

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

To get your Vick, you have to bottom out and get a top 5 pick.

By the Vick to Ryan analogy, I meant going from one era to the next. We are moving from WLOC on to the next era of Hawks basketball.

This is not football. This is basketball. If you don't bring in the right type of talent, you could easily turn into the Minnesota Timberwolves. They haven't made the playoffs since before Garrett left. They got their lottery superstar, but no other player is All Star worthy. So they run the "Hamster Wheel Of Hope" and wish for everything to come together.

After 9 years of not making the playoffs, it hasn't. And this year may be #10.

To the Hawks and the Wolves credit, the Western Conference has dominated the Eastern Conference for about 15 years now. Also, all Garnett got the Wolves was one trip to the WCF and he only had guys like Sprewell, Cassell, and Szczerbiak around him. Minnesota is now having the same issues with Love. Fact is, if you don't put guys around your stars, you will lose them. We have Horford.

All that talk about culture doesn't mean a damn thing if you don't have multiple players who can get the job done on a nightly basis.

I agree with this statement, but as I said before, it takes a lot more time for a roster to be put together than it does hiring a GM or coaching staff.

So who do you want this off season that you think we can realistically get? Toss out some names.

What do you want to see happen this offseason?

As for my offseason would be for Ferry to fully evaluate Teague, Millsap, DMC, and Korver and decide if those guys are a part of his championship team. If not, then try to trade them for prospects or picks or go for blockbuster. Honestly, I believe only Korver and DMC fits on a championship team in Atlanta, but from the bench. Then I'd like for him to use that first pick in the draft on a true scoring SF. I have really liked Rodney Hood. He is a deadly 3pt marksmen and can absorb contact to make a shot by the hoop. Do NOT trade up in the draft because the talent pool this year is DEEP and we wouldn't get much improvement in value. Then I'd like to see our 2nd pick spent on a 6'5"-6'7" 2 guard that may be raw or unknown which this draft offers. After the draft, I'd like to see Ferry go after more scoring, no matter the position. I think we can agree that guys like Mack, Martin, Antić, and Ayón could be replaced with younger talent. Muscala will likely take Antics spot next season. If you can't snag a great FA, then stock up on more trade chips to be used later. Then, I want Ferry to dump Sap for whatever he can get at the 2015 deadline. Go for picks first, then players.

Horford, Korver, and DMC are the only championship caliber players on this current roster. This is the perfect draft to snag a mid-round star in. Right now, the games don't matter, it's the chess match that Ferry will play in the offseason that matters.

[NJHAWK]

IMHO you cant even say Bud is on Drews level. Drew went 40-26 with Al only playing 11 games. Drew was above .500 last season with basically the same main pieces except Smoove and we replaced Smoove with a better player who was having a better season before he got hurt. Lou got hurt last year for Drew as well and last year he was actually a big time player for us.. I guess maybe we have to wait till Milsap comes back to fairly judge but this team is in free fall no pride mode and its embarrising.

Edited March 7, 2014 by NJHAWK

[buckeye242424]

IMHO you cant even say Bud is on Drews level. Drew went 40-26 with Al only playing 11 games. Drew was above .500 last season with basically the same main pieces except Smoove and we replaced Smoove with a better player who was having a better season before he got hurt. Lou got hurt last year for Drew as well and last year he was actually a big time player for us.. I guess maybe we have to wait till Milsap comes back to fairly judge but this team is in free fall no pride mode and its embarrising.

i have disagree with you here. Anyone that has spent 20 years under a Hall of Fame Coach is an upgrade over Larry Drew. Sure, you're argument has some merit, but let's factor in he's only in his first season and it's such a small sample size and he's implementing a new system and mentality. I think Bud is a definite upgrade over Drew in being a head coach.

[NJHAWK]

Milsap could come back, this team could go on a nice run and Bud could prove me wrong. It seems like they were better at Buds system earlier even after Horford got hurt and now Bud has lost the ears of the team.

[macdaddy]

Milsap could come back, this team could go on a nice run and Bud could prove me wrong. It seems like they were better at Buds system earlier even after Horford got hurt and now Bud has lost the ears of the team.

Well Antić stepped in and filled Al's role pretty good. Ayón tried. Then we lost DMC for a few, Millsap, Mack has been pretty bad lately. But really when the only bigs are your roster are Brand and Scott you can't win much.

[MaceCase]

You have to look at the collective experience both in the league and playing together that LD's bunch had in comparison to this group:

Al and Jeffrey are the only two that have played more than 2 years together and after that it's only Jeffrey and Kyle (and Shelvin) that were here last year. LD had WLOC intact.

Pero, Ayón, Scott, Mack, Muscala, Scroeder and even Carroll don't have the combined NBA experience of even a single member of either Willie Green, Hinrich, Stackhouse, McGrady, Collins, Dampier, Harris, Petro etc.

It's akin to saying that Jason Kidd is as good a coach as Rick Adelman just because their teams have the same number of wins this year without taking into account other factors that govern their rosters.

[MaceCase]

AHA! Looks like I snuck "scroeder" past the Schröder filter!

[NJHAWK]

You have to look at the collective experience both in the league and playing together that LD's bunch had in comparison to this group:

Al and Jeffrey are the only two that have played more than 2 years together and after that it's only Jeffrey and Kyle (and Shelvin) that were here last year. LD had WLOC intact.

Pero, Ayón, Scott, Mack, Muscala, Scroeder and even Carroll don't have the combined NBA experience of even a single member of either Willie Green, Hinrich, Stackhouse, McGrady, Collins, Dampier, Harris, Petro etc.

It's akin to saying that Jason Kidd is as good a coach as Rick Adelman just because their teams have the same number of wins this year without taking into account other factors that govern their rosters.

Most of the guys you mentioned were either past it or never had it. The number one complaint about Drew was how he would just stand there while Smoove jacked up bad shots. Now we have a much more efficent pf and we still are well under .500. With Milsap back tonite the excuses end. Hell teams have won titles where most of the guys played together less than 2 seasons, in Bostons case 1. I know we dont have anywhere near that calibur of players on this team but its no excuse to look like the Bobcats , Raptors or Wizards. Oh wait they have all past us bye under Bud.

[macdaddy]

Most of the guys you mentioned were either past it or never had it. The number one complaint about Drew was how he would just stand there while Smoove jacked up bad shots. Now we have a much more efficent pf and we still are well under .500. With Milsap back tonite the excuses end. Hell teams have won titles where most of the guys played together less than 2 seasons, in Bostons case 1. I know we dont have anywhere near that calibur of players on this team but its no excuse to look like the Bobcats , Raptors or Wizards. Oh wait they have all past us bye under Bud.

Drew did a great job and the way the team performed last year was especially impressive given the roster. But you're knocking Bud basically because we went on an epic slide which coincided with injuries that left us with ZERO bigs under 35 years old. Its one thing to lose key guys but its another to lose every available player but one at two positions. Brand has done a fantastic job but you could take any team in the league and give them Brand and Scott as their ONLY two 4/5s and that team is going to struggle. Hell what team can get by with no backups in the frontcourt?

[AHF]

Hell what team can get by with no backups in the frontcourt?

A lot of teams could "get by" with our backups, but their staring frontcourts are all much better than Brand/Scott!

[NJHAWK]

Milsap and Antić should both be healthy and while the Moose looks a little raw he has shown some skill in his 1st two games so the excuses end starting tonite. If we start winning again and have a decent record to finish out the season then maybe Bud deserves a B or B-. If we continue to be humiliated then he gets a D or D-. lol