Does the Melo way make sense?

[SalvorMallow]

The fact that someone would have to compare Carmelo to Lebron and Durant to show how "Bad" he is must mean he is tremendously good.

[EazyRoc]

Lebron compared Jack Taylor to Wilt and Kobe. Are we really going to argue media quotes over on the court production?http://sports.ca.msn.com/headlines/lebron-praises-138-point-scorer-3The whole point is that production speaks louder than cheap quotes.Isn't the proof in the pudding when Durant is the top gun on the Olympic team?

The proof in the pudding are the top players think a player they've played with and against is the toughest matchup for them in the league . AHF knows more than veteran superstars because he can read a stat sheet lol. Since we are talking Olympics and Kevin Durant being top gun, take a wild guess at who #2 was. Ill give you a hint...it wasnt LeBron.

[EazyRoc]

The fact that someone would have to compare Carmelo to Lebron and Durant to show how "Bad" he is must mean he is tremendously good.

What is bothering me is that you would think I was making the case for Carmelo being BETTER than those two, but I'm not. This guy (AHF) what concede to what all the top players have already stated.

[Duff_Man]

I wish we could somehow get Bosh and Melo on the same team as the "stars". That would be the highest of comedy.

[AHF]

The fact that someone would have to compare Carmelo to Lebron and Durant to show how "Bad" he is must mean he is tremendously good.

He is very good offensively. I'm not sure anyone has said differently. He is just not nearly as good as Lebron and Durant.

Re Lebron in Cleveland versus Melo in NY the main reason I don't find that to be very significant is the following:

(1) Both players have gotten better as they have gotten older so it is a bit misleading to compare one during the earliest years of his career before his skills matured to the other at their career peak. (Although the fact that Melo still comes up short says a little something).

(2) When Melo was playing with *better* supporting talent in Denver, he was worse from an efficiency standpoint. This contradicts the notion that he would be equaling Lebron if he only had the talent that Lebron did. Carmelo has had plenty of support for some of his seasons in the past. How much worse is this than what Lebron has this season with Wade out for 1/2 the year or than what Durant has had with Westbrook out most of the year? I'll say that his talent was better this season than what Durant and Lebron have had this year, but of course his numbers aren't nearly as good:

2007-08

Penetration and drawing D: Allen Iverson 26.4 PPG, .564 TS% (career high)

Spreading the floor:

JR Smith .603 TS% / .403% 3pt #3 option

Linas Kleiza .585 TS%, #5 option

Interior: Kenyon Martin .553 TS% #4 option

On the boards: Marcus Camby 13.5 rpg

[Admin]

He is very good offensively. I'm not sure anyone has said differently. He is just not nearly as good as Lebron and Durant.

Re Lebron in Cleveland versus Melo in NY the main reason I don't find that to be very significant is the following:

(1) Both players have gotten better as they have gotten older so it is a bit misleading to compare one during the earliest years of his career before his skills matured to the other at their career peak. (Although the fact that Melo still comes up short says a little something).

(2) When Melo was playing with *better* supporting talent in Denver, he was worse from an efficiency standpoint. This contradicts the notion that he would be equaling Lebron if he only had the talent that Lebron did. Carmelo has had plenty of support for some of his seasons in the past. How much worse is this than what Lebron has this season with Wade out for 1/2 the year or than what Durant has had with Westbrook out most of the year? I'll say that his talent was better this season than what Durant and Lebron have had this year, but of course his numbers aren't nearly as good:

2007-08

Penetration and drawing D: Allen Iverson 26.4 PPG, .564 TS% (career high)

Spreading the floor:

JR Smith .603 TS% / .403% 3pt #3 option

Linas Kleiza .585 TS%, #5 option

Interior: Kenyon Martin .553 TS% #4 option

On the boards: Marcus Camby 13.5 rpg

The fact that you can make the distinction that Carmelo is inferior offensively to Lebron and KD and then turn around and try and pump up an old AI, a chuckster JR Smith and a few guys who offer nothing offensively in terms of handling scoring load to Westbrook, Bosh and DWade is quite a contradiction IMO.

What's really interesting is that the 1 time we can look at the stats with Carmelo playing with other stars (2012 Olympics) that he posted a .688 TS% over 8 games. Granted it's not the NBA but if we look at Lebron (.662) and KD (.690) we see that Carmelo availed himself quite well and was every bit on their level offensively among the same level of competition.

[SalvorMallow]

Here is an interesting article about how Carmelo increases the offensive efficiency of players around him.

Because he is able to score from anywhere in the court, Anthony draws attention and defenders away from his teammates, sometimes leaving them with wide-open shots. He also allows them to be more selective about the shots that they choose to take, since they know that Anthony can usually get a respectable shot off before the 24-second clock expires if needed.

These effects produce a profound increase in the efficiency of Anthony’s supporting cast when he is on the floor. In the 135 games that he played with the Nuggets, for instance, Allen Iverson’s True Shooting Percentage was 55.9 percent – much better than the 51.2 TS% that Iverson, a notoriously inefficient shooter, posted outside of Denver over the course of his career.

In fact, this is true of almost every Nugget who has played a sufficient number of minutes with Anthony. I identified 16 players who have accumulated least 2,000 minutes with the Nuggets in years when Anthony was on the team, and have also played at least 2,000 minutes in the N.B.A. without Anthony (either because they were playing for a different team or because they were on the Nuggets before Anthony’s rookie season). All but 2 of the players – Marcus Camby and Voshon Lenard – posted a higher TS% playing with Anthony than without him, and on average, he improved his teammates’ TS% by 3.8 points (to 55.0 percent from 51.2 percent).

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/15/why-carmelo-anthony-is-the-ultimate-team-player-and-what-advanced-stats-miss-about-him/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=1

Edited March 7, 2014 by SalvorMallow

[MaceCase]

Really, you're using those as examples of guys that Carmelo played with who could take the pressure off of him offensively? None of them are anywhere near the level of Westbrook, Bosh or Wade, considering that AI was pretty much a shell of his former self by that point.

You do realize that that "shell" was outscoring Melo, right? Oh wait, you'll focus on per36 (won't help either because that would mean had not 1 but 2 23ppg scorers to take the pressure off) now and just slide on by both WS or WS/48 that you were championing in just another thread?

The fact that you can make the distinction that Carmelo is inferior offensively to Lebron and KD and then turn around and try and pump up an old AI, a chuckster JR Smith and a few guys who offer nothing offensively in terms of handling scoring load to Westbrook, Bosh and DWade is quite a contradiction IMO.

What's really interesting is that the 1 time we can look at the stats with Carmelo playing with other stars (2012 Olympics) that he posted a .688 TS% over 8 games. Granted it's not the NBA but if we look at Lebron (.662) and KD (.690) we see that Carmelo availed himself quite well and was every bit on their level offensively among the same level of competition.

He availed himself quite well......as the 3rd option in both instances.

[AHF]

The fact that you can make the distinction that Carmelo is inferior offensively to Lebron and KD and then turn around and try and pump up an old AI, a chuckster JR Smith and a few guys who offer nothing offensively in terms of handling scoring load to Westbrook, Bosh and DWade is quite a contradiction IMO.

That Nuggets team was LOADED with offensive talent.

I like that you are saying AI was "old" and therefore somehow not that meaningful when HE WAS THE #1 OPTION OVER CARMELO. Then you turn around and say Carmelo = Durant/Lebron.

That is cognitive dissonance.

AI - 26.4 PPG / Carmelo 25.4 PPG

AI - 2164 points / Carmelo 1978 points

AI - .567 TS% / Carmelo .568 TS% (career high)

What does that tell you?

On Westbrook 2013-14 versus AI 2007-08, you tell me who carried the biggest burden to date:

AI - 2164 points on .567 TS%

Westbrook - 680 points on .542 TS%

Net: 1484 fewer points on .025 TS% less efficiency

Go ahead and tell me how Westbrook has carried a bigger load this season for OKC than Iverson did for the 2007-08 Nuggets. I'll wait.

[Admin]

You do realize that that "shell" was outscoring Melo, right? Oh wait, you'll focus on per36 (won't help either because that would mean had not 1 but 2 23ppg scorers to take the pressure off) now and just slide on by both WS or WS/48 that you were championing in just another thread?

He availed himself quite well......as the 3rd option in both instances.

Why would I focus on per36? Have you ever seen me use that? I doubt it and certainly not recently. And gosh that sure was a good job by Iverson getting 26ppg on 19 attempts boy that really helped Carmelo didn't it. And yeah he was a shell of his former self as he averaged 17, 14, 12 and 14 over the next and final years of his career, which seems like a far cry from a guy who could put up 30 in his sleep in his prime.

Yeah he was the 3rd option, who matched KD in TS%, beat Lebron in TS% and scoring and only averaged about 3 points less per game than KD but sure he's not on their level.

[Admin]

That Nuggets team was LOADED with offensive talent.

I like that you are saying AI was "old" and therefore somehow not that meaningful when HE WAS THE #1 OPTION OVER CARMELO. Then you turn around and say Carmelo = Durant/Lebron.

That is cognitive dissonance.

AI - 26.4 PPG / Carmelo 25.4 PPG

AI - 2164 points / Carmelo 1978 points

AI - .567 TS% / Carmelo .568 TS% (career high)

What does that tell you?

On Westbrook 2013-14 versus AI 2007-08, you tell me who carried the biggest burden to date:

AI - 2164 points on .567 TS%

Westbrook - 680 points on .542 TS%

Net: 1484 fewer points on .025 TS% less efficiency

Go ahead and tell me how Westbrook has carried a bigger load this season for OKC than Iverson did for the 2007-08 Nuggets. I'll wait.

Conveniently glossing over TS%'s that again show Carmelo to be in the same league as Lebron and KD I see.

No need to get into how AI was a shell of his former self as I posted above how he was on the cliff and about to fall off starting the very next season. But I will say this, what has KD won with Westbrook? Certainly no more than Carmelo won with AI so I guess in that regard they're in the same league as well.

Feel free to continue on thinking there is a difference between Carmelo and KD/Lebron offensively as it's just you arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

Oh and please explain how AI "WAS THE #1 OPTION OVER CARMELO" when Carmelo averaged 19.2 FGs per game and AI averaged 19. Or if FGAs aren't enough how about Carmelo's 30% usage to AI's 27%? Glossing over stats again to try and sway people's opinions who won't go and look them up I see.

[AHF]

Conveniently glossing over TS%'s that again show Carmelo to be in the same league as Lebron and KD I see.

No need to get into how AI was a shell of his former self as I posted above how he was on the cliff and about to fall off starting the very next season. But I will say this, what has KD won with Westbrook? Certainly no more than Carmelo won with AI so I guess in that regard they're in the same league as well.

Feel free to continue on thinking there is a difference between Carmelo and KD/Lebron offensively as it's just you arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

Oh and please explain how AI "WAS THE #1 OPTION OVER CARMELO" when Carmelo averaged 19.2 FGs per game and AI averaged 19. Or if FGAs aren't enough how about Carmelo's 30% usage to AI's 27%? Glossing over stats again to try and sway people's opinions who won't go and look them up I see.

(1) I am NOT glossing over Carmelo's TS%.

Carmelo's career high TS% is .568. Durant's career average TS% is .599. How is that glossing over?

(2) AI was the #1 option because he scored more per game and shot more per game. I have no problem saying that Carmelo was co-#1 with AI. By your definition, that means that "the shell that was AI" was the co-#1 with Carmelo.

(3) Aren't you completely glossing over 2007-08 AI versus 2013-14 Westbrook? You repeatedly argued that Carmelo had no offensive support compared to what Durant has gotten this year. Durant has put up a .638 TS% this year. Bridge me to how Westbrook's 2013-14 contributions are so much better than AI's 2007-08 contributions that Carmelo's TS% is 70 points less.

Edited March 7, 2014 by AHF

[MaceCase]

Why would I focus on per36? Have you ever seen me use that? I doubt it and certainly not recently. And gosh that sure was a good job by Iverson getting 26ppg on 19 attempts boy that really helped Carmelo didn't it. And yeah he was a shell of his former self as he averaged 17, 14, 12 and 14 over the next and final years of his career, which seems like a far cry from a guy who could put up 30 in his sleep in his prime.

Yeah he was the 3rd option, who matched KD in TS%, beat Lebron in TS% and scoring and only averaged about 3 points less per game than KD but sure he's not on their level.

He spent 2 total seasons (1 full, 2 halves) with Carmelo where he averaged 25, 26, and 19 ppg. I don't care what he did after he was with Melo because that's irrelevant to the conversation. I don't care what he did before Melo because that is also irrelevant to the conversation. In one instance he outscored Melo and regardless provided more than sufficient offensive help for him where you are contending that Melo never had any and using weak excuses such as Iverson's age to disregard the actual production he provided.

He was the 3rd option in 08 and the 4th in 12' coming off the bench, typically it's less of a feat for a 3rd/4th option to have high efficiency as compared to a 1st/2nd. Secondly, no the humor has not escaped me that in an argument of whether Carmelo is in the same class of real stars that you've failed to realize that Carmelo was firmly placed behind Kobe and Lebron in the pecking order and then Durant comes along and replaces him entirely from the starting lineup. Surely we are not seeing a hierarchy present itself even at the Olympics.

Edited March 7, 2014 by MaceCase

[AHF]

Surely we are not seeing a hierarchy present itself even at the Olympics.

Why would you think Durant and Lebron starting over Carmelo and being first team all-olympics with Carmelo being second team would suggest a hierarchy? Stopping the sarcasm, you can't take away much of significance from the Olympics so I wouldn't go far with drawing inferences from the Olympic numbers and ratings.

It is tough to draw too much from the Olympics, though, when they are only 8 games (meaningless sample size), they are played under different rules, and they are played against very different competition. Let's bear in mind what the Olympics numbers mean by way of illustration: Yi Jianlian was the #1 rebounder in the 2012 olympics and the #2 shotblocker. Salah Mejri was the #2 rebounder and #1 shotblocker. The #3 rebounder was Ike Diougu. How does that translate into the NBA?

Carmelo should not be unduly criticized or lauded as an NBA player for his Olympic play. The same goes for every other player. The fact that Durant was the top US scorer is of seriously limited value as it relates to his dominance or lack thereof as an NBA scorer. The top scorer was Patrick Mills. What does that say about Mills as an NBA scorer? Not much.

[HawkItus]

Carmelo to me is the classic Dominique story. He is individually a transcendent player. Has he ever played with a player who at the time they played together would even be considered top 20? No. Has he ever been on a team that was considered talent wise top 5 in the league? No. Nique always ran into the Larry Bird Celtics, Bucks, Isiah Pistons etc. He could raise his level of play, but the rest of the team could only raise themselves so far. Melo has run into the same situation. If you replace Lebron with Melo they win a title. Maybe not multiple titles, but they win. Put him with OKC instead of Durant and I'm not sure they don't beat the Heat that year. He would've demanded the ball and been less deferring. I want to see Melo on Chicago or in Portland. Send him into a mach up where he has the superior team or at least an equal team to these other guys and lets see what happens.

[AHF]

I was thinking put Durant or Lebron on the Knicks and they are in the playoffs this year. Put them with the Nuggets during his seasons there with Camby, Nene, Kenyon, Smith, AI, Andre Miller, etc. and they are in the Conference and probably NBA finals. Put Melo on that OKC team and they aren't even in the finals, let alone beating Miami. They get bounced by SA.

Look at that Denver team. They won 57 games shortly after losing Carmelo. The most they ever won with Carmelo was 54.

Take Lebron away from Cleveland and they are in the gutter.

Edited March 7, 2014 by AHF

[MaceCase]

Why would you think Durant and Lebron starting over Carmelo and being first team all-olympics with Carmelo being second team would suggest a hierarchy? Stopping the sarcasm, you can't take away much of significance from the Olympics so I wouldn't go far with drawing inferences from the Olympic numbers and ratings.

Meh, it was a simple matter where the Olympics were introduced as evidence for Melo so it only fell to me to poke holes in it against. I wouldn't give it any more merit of being evidence of him playing with other star options than I would any of his All Star appearances.

We've overlooked Win Shares though and they tell an interesting story on Melo. I was going to work up a a whole table but why bother when I could summarize that he's finished as the leader in Win Shares on his team only 3 times in his entire career and only once in Denver where he was on average 3rd on the team. That kind of either blows a hole in the arguments of him not having help or being that good individually. Durant and Lebron on the other hand have been far an away the leader on their squads excluding only their rookie seasons.

[AHF]

Meh, it was a simple matter where the Olympics were introduced as evidence for Melo so it only fell to me to poke holes in it against. I wouldn't give it any more merit of being evidence of him playing with other star options than I would any of his All Star appearances.

We've overlooked Win Shares though and they tell an interesting story on Melo. I was going to work up a a whole table but why bother when I could summarize that he's finished as the leader in Win Shares on his team only 3 times in his entire career and only once in Denver where he was on average 3rd on the team. That kind of either blows a hole in the arguments of him not having help or being that good individually. Durant and Lebron on the other hand have been far an away the leader on their squads excluding only their rookie seasons.

I haven't mentioned Win Shares or a variety of other stats that illustrate his flaws because we have been talking about Melo purely as a scorer. His bad defense, mediocre A/TO ratio, etc. don't directly relate to his scoring ability. Had we been talking about his status as an "offensive player" you could start contrasting the passing ability, etc. of these guys, but I have been giving Melo the benefit of the doubt by limiting this discussion solely to putting the ball in the hoop.

There is no argument for his total game being in the same state as the other players we have been discussing. As a scorer, there is a better argument for him being near the best of the best although I am damning with faint praise because even a terrible argument is better than no argument at all.

[Admin]

(1) I am NOT glossing over Carmelo's TS%.

Carmelo's career high TS% is .568. Durant's career average TS% is .599. How is that glossing over?

(2) AI was the #1 option because he scored more per game and shot more per game. I have no problem saying that Carmelo was co-#1 with AI. By your definition, that means that "the shell that was AI" was the co-#1 with Carmelo.

(3) Aren't you completely glossing over 2007-08 AI versus 2013-14 Westbrook? You repeatedly argued that Carmelo had no offensive support compared to what Durant has gotten this year. Durant has put up a .638 TS% this year. Bridge me to how Westbrook's 2013-14 contributions are so much better than AI's 2007-08 contributions that Carmelo's TS% is 70 points less.

1) You glossed over the Olympics stats where I showed Carmelo was his equal when he had quality players around him.

1a) Carmelo had comparable TS%'s to Lebron back when he was in Cleveland and had a weak supporting cast.

2) No, Carmelo took more shots than AI and had a higher usage %.

3) I'm not even going to seriously consider you comparing Westbrook in his prime to a 32 year old AI who was in his 12th year in the league at the time.

[Admin]

Why would you think Durant and Lebron starting over Carmelo and being first team all-olympics with Carmelo being second team would suggest a hierarchy? Stopping the sarcasm, you can't take away much of significance from the Olympics so I wouldn't go far with drawing inferences from the Olympic numbers and ratings.

It is tough to draw too much from the Olympics, though, when they are only 8 games (meaningless sample size), they are played under different rules, and they are played against very different competition. Let's bear in mind what the Olympics numbers mean by way of illustration: Yi Jianlian was the #1 rebounder in the 2012 olympics and the #2 shotblocker. Salah Mejri was the #2 rebounder and #1 shotblocker. The #3 rebounder was Ike Diougu. How does that translate into the NBA?

Carmelo should not be unduly criticized or lauded as an NBA player for his Olympic play. The same goes for every other player. The fact that Durant was the top US scorer is of seriously limited value as it relates to his dominance or lack thereof as an NBA scorer. The top scorer was Patrick Mills. What does that say about Mills as an NBA scorer? Not much.

Yeah why would Carmelo with an equal TS% and only 3 points less per game be able to be compared to the GREAT KD and Lebron at the Olympics.

This discussion here is about his OFFENSIVE game being comparable to them. Lebron is clearly the better defender and KD is perhaps the best all around player in the game right now so I would fully expect them to be ahead, plus they don't have this ridiculous negative stigma placed on them like Carmelo does for being the same player that Lebron was until he jumped ship to Miami to form the threesome.