Does the Melo way make sense?

[Admin]

I was thinking put Durant or Lebron on the Knicks and they are in the playoffs this year. Put them with the Nuggets during his seasons there with Camby, Nene, Kenyon, Smith, AI, Andre Miller, etc. and they are in the Conference and probably NBA finals. Put Melo on that OKC team and they aren't even in the finals, let alone beating Miami. They get bounced by SA.

Look at that Denver team. They won 57 games shortly after losing Carmelo. The most they ever won with Carmelo was 54.

Take Lebron away from Cleveland and they are in the gutter.

Yeah because Denver didn't get anything back in the Carmelo trade, oh wait they did. And yeah I guess Cleveland got a lot back from Lebron leaving, oh wait that's right he left for nothing. So not really a quality point you're making there.

[Admin]

He spent 2 total seasons (1 full, 2 halves) with Carmelo where he averaged 25, 26, and 19 ppg. I don't care what he did after he was with Melo because that's irrelevant to the conversation. I don't care what he did before Melo because that is also irrelevant to the conversation. In one instance he outscored Melo and regardless provided more than sufficient offensive help for him where you are contending that Melo never had any and using weak excuses such as Iverson's age to disregard the actual production he provided.

He was the 3rd option in 08 and the 4th in 12' coming off the bench, typically it's less of a feat for a 3rd/4th option to have high efficiency as compared to a 1st/2nd. Secondly, no the humor has not escaped me that in an argument of whether Carmelo is in the same class of real stars that you've failed to realize that Carmelo was firmly placed behind Kobe and Lebron in the pecking order and then Durant comes along and replaces him entirely from the starting lineup. Surely we are not seeing a hierarchy present itself even at the Olympics.

Geez that's you trying to poke holes? By bringing up where he is in the order of playing? You think, maybe, that it has something to do with those guys being better all around players and that's not germane to this discussion on comparing them offensively, where I've proven that he was their equal or better? But that's okay hold onto your opinion, I'll take the opinion of Coach K and Coach Boeheim about Carmelo over anyone on this forum every single day.

[AHF]

1) You glossed over the Olympics stats where I showed Carmelo was his equal when he had quality players around him.

1a) Carmelo had comparable TS%'s to Lebron back when he was in Cleveland and had a weak supporting cast.

See my comments above for the significance of 8 games worth of stats in non-NBA basketball. To the extent you judge by the Olympics, Durant still wins.

But let's really look at 8 games of TS% over Carmelo's 772 NBA games. Because no one deviates from their career over 8 games against competition like Yi, right? We should probably start weighing Olympic stats over NBA stats and declaring Yi the best rebounder in the world.

The NBA career numbers mean about 1000x more to me than the Olympic ones.

2) No, Carmelo took more shots than AI and had a higher usage %.

I love that even better. He shoots more and scores less than a washed up AI (your description of him) in the most efficient offensive season of his career (while turning the ball over more than AI and racking up less than half the assists). That is the kind of elite offense that only Carmelo can deliver.

3) I'm not even going to seriously consider you comparing Westbrook in his prime to a 32 year old AI who was in his 12th year in the league at the time.

So let me make sure I follow. Iverson is so terrible offensively that you refuse to even compare him to Westbrook even after acknowledging that Westbrook has not played the majority of this season. On the other hand, Iverson still scored more than Carmelo on a per game and total points basis (really any basis) in Carmelo's season of peak scoring efficiency. So Carmelo can't measure up to someone who isn't even in the realm of discussion of Westbrook as a scorer?

2007-08

Iverson 19.0 FGA/GM; 26.4 PPG; 2164 points

Carmelo 19.2 FGA/GM; 25.7 PPG; 1978 points

Well. I am now convinced that Carmelo is the best scorer the game has ever seen. How do you argue with the guy who is #2 on his own team during his career high efficiency season?

[Admin]

It's pointless to continue this as you're just wanting to argue because that's your favorite thing to do. The point is absolutely valid that Carmelo is in the same league and then some offensively as Lebron and KD. Feel free to disagree but I'm tired of explaining why that's the case.

[HawkItus]

[AHF]

I don't see that you have even begun to acknowledge the numbers, but we'll agree to disagree.

I am kind of hoping that Carmelo signs with Chicago so all his many, many excuses will go away. I am just amazed that volume shooting continues to command so much respect. This debate feels like debating AI's rank among the game's elite scorers (Carmelo is better for his career than AI was for his career but the principle is the same).

I will close with this for those praying we sign Carmelo as a FA (even though I don't think he will even look at Atlanta):

If Carmelo is Durant's equal as a scorer, he must really, really, really be a liability with the rest of his game to generate such non-elite total metrics. e.g., Lebron .243 WS/48; Durant .207 WS/48; Paul Pierce .162 WS/48; Paul George .152 WS/48; Carmelo .137 WS/48; Nicolas Batum .124 WS/48.

Edited March 7, 2014 by AHF

[benhillboy]

The Melo debate happens on every team's boards quite frequently. All NBA fans know he's an awesome talent, but the constant debate on his value and ability to lead a team to a winning culture shows how flawed of a player he is that those in his favor can't even invalidate. He's the anti-Noah. You won't find many threads on any NBA Teams' blog questioning, if healthy, would they like to have Noah and if he could fit in. I still view myself as a novice NBA history buff, but the older I get, the more I'm drawn to comprehensively skilled players. Melo's passing will never be remotely close to good enough to lead any team anywhere. Noah has had 5 double digit assists gamese this calendar year. Melo, 5 in his career. There's no more scathing indictment of his overall game than that. Drawing a double and finding the open man is a sixth sense for guys like LeBron, KD, Oscar, Magic, Larry. Melo has very little incling if any on who is doubling off, where his free man is/ should be, or the best passing style to get it there on time and target. Playing Point-Forward is an impossibility for him. 40 YO Kidd is the main factor gone from last year, and it shows in their lack of focus on team defense, ball movement, and spacing. He got the Brooklyn job so fast because it was clear he pulled a Bill Russell last season as Player-Coach.

Edited March 7, 2014 by benhillboy

[EazyRoc]

It's pointless to continue this as you're just wanting to argue because that's your favorite thing to do. The point is absolutely valid that Carmelo is in the same league and then some offensively as Lebron and KD. Feel free to disagree but I'm tired of explaining why that's the case.

When he discredited the opinions of LeBron and Kevin Durant (the very people he claims are "in another league") I was done. Kobe even said he's the toughest match up and Kobe doesn't say things just to say them.

[Hawkeyes007]

I'm sick and tired of watching teams walk in and lay up an easy two and getting wide open three point shots. How many opponents have scored well over a 100 on us lately? Carmelo is a one sided player. He commits to offense and if we've got anything, we've got some good offensive players. We need more defense. Look at the Bulls they suck at offense, but because they make people fight to score they're always competitive. Besides if Carmelo leaves New York it's going to be because he's tired of losing and as a team we're not top of the list for winning potential.

[AHF]

When he discredited the opinions of LeBron and Kevin Durant (the very people he claims are "in another league") I was done. Kobe even said he's the toughest match up and Kobe doesn't say things just to say them.

NUMBERS OVER QUOTES.

Kobe is actively recruiting Melo right now. Kobe isn't saying this just to say them - he is saying it because Melo is talented and he wants him as a teammate.

Look at the numbers. I gave you the career numbers, so let's see how tough a cover these guys have been for Kobe:

Carmelo

23.4 ppg

Durant

27.5 ppg

Lebron

27.9 ppg

Guess who is the only one of these guys that Kobe has outscored head to head?

Surprise, surprise...it's Carmelo!

Like always, Carmelo's scoring output is dwarfed by Lebron and Durant.

[EazyRoc]

NUMBERS OVER QUOTES. Kobe is actively recruiting Melo right now. Kobe isn't saying this just to say them - he is saying it because Melo is talented and he wants him as a teammate. Look at the numbers. I gave you the career numbers, so let's see how tough a cover these guys have been for Kobe: Carmelo23.4 ppg Durant27.5 ppg Lebron27.9 ppg Guess who is the only one of these guys that Kobe has outscored head to head? Surprise, surprise...it's Carmelo! Like always, Carmelo's scoring output is dwarfed by Lebron and Durant.

Kobe was quoted saying that way before Carmelo to LA was even a thought. Nor have I ever implied Carmelo was some sort of defensive guru. ALSO! LeBron and Durant have never tried to recruit Carmelo. Once again, the opinion of veteran superstars will always carry more weight than a stat sheet. You're saying a guy who's won a scoring title and has been a runner up for years isn't in the same league offensively as LeBron and Durant doesn't make sense. Especially when you try to justify it with 4 or 5 hundredths difference. Im done.

[AHF]

Kobe was quoted saying that way before Carmelo to LA was even a thought. Nor have I ever implied Carmelo was some sort of defensive guru. ALSO! LeBron and Durant have never tried to recruit Carmelo. Once again, the opinion of veteran superstars will always carry more weight than a stat sheet. You're saying a guy who's won a scoring title and has been a runner up for years isn't in the same league offensively as LeBron and Durant doesn't make sense. Especially when you try to justify it with 4 or 5 hundredths difference. Im done.

The difference is huge. Give me a break.

Versus Kobe:

Durant has scored 17.5% more; Lebron has scored 19% more.

For scoring efficiency:

Durant has scored 9.5% more efficiently (.599/.547 = 1.095) and Lebron has scored 6% more efficiently.

For scoring productivity:

Durant has scored 7.5% more points per game; Lebron has scored 8.7% more points per game.

Again:

The difference between Carmelo and Josh Smith is less than that on scoring efficiency. So if you think the difference between Josh and Carmelo on efficiency is significant, you have to recognize the larger gap between Melo and Durant.

If you want to debate Paul Pierce versus Carmelo Anthony for their careers, I am on board to talk about that. PP has the efficiency by a a few points, Carmelo has the raw scoring by a few points. Pierce has been NBA Finals MVP; Carmelo has led the league in scoring per game. Etc.

Once you get to Lebron and Durant, however, you have to start reaching for things off the court to try to put him in the same conversation.

I have shared a million links on all these things with you. You haven't addressed any of them. You haven't even linked to your quotes. Just because Kobe claims he is better than Michael Jordan doesn't make it so. Talk is cheap.

Performance > Quotes