Changing a Culture...

[Diesel]

Ferry talks about Changing a Culture. BK invented "changing a culture"... But

Washington, Toronoto, and Phoenix are actually doing it?!!!?

These teams are over .500. The question is what is their secret? AND Can the Hawks copy it?

[NBASupes]

talent.

[nathan2331]

Is it possible that Ferry tried building a team that was not meant to be competitive and we're just now seeing to the results of his efforts. I mean, this team is in the bottom of the league as far as salary (with no major rookie contracts to bring that number down). Horford going down was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

[turnermx]

Health of their key most talented playersSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[turnermx]

Is it possible that Ferry tried building a team that was not meant to be competitive and we're just now seeing to the results of his efforts. I mean, this team is in the bottom of the league as far as salary (with no major rookie contracts to bring that number down). Horford going down was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

Yes i do believe this was meant to be a rebuilding year and a talent depleted team overachieved partly due to weakness of schedule and other part due to the talent of Horford, Millsap, DMC, include Pero..Horford went down early enough possibly to consider making changes to enable a further step back with the aim to get higher in the draft but we were still holding the 3rd seed then.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Edited March 17, 2014 by turnermx

[Guest]

Ferry talks about Changing a Culture. BK invented "changing a culture"... But

Washington, Toronoto, and Phoenix are actually doing it?!!!?

These teams are over .500. The question is what is their secret? AND Can the Hawks copy it?

Last time over .500:

Washington - 2007/08 season = 7 years

Toronto - 2007/08 season = 7 years

Phoenix 2009/10 season = 4 years

Congrats - took you long enough!!!

[capstone21]

Healthy team and we would have been over .500

Getting a marquee draft pick would have helped ...

its not a city that marquee free agents want to come to so we have to find an up and coming player who might turn into something (simular to Joe Johnson coming here).

[Wretch]

By comparison, the Hawks have one of the most successful teams in the NBA. We had strong playoff runs in the 80's, 90's, and when Joe and the baby birds matured in the late 2000's. If you're just looking at wins and losses, this is a WINNING culture.

Conversely, look at the Los Angeles Clippers franchise...which is the poster child for ineptitude. They embodied tanking and losing and are really the antithesis of what we have accomplished.

Nobody cares because at the moment, the Clippers have talent and they are in contention. They're not champions, they're just contending and that is really all you can ask for. The culture changed when they entered the title contention conversation. They got into that conversation when they brought Chris Paul on board. They sealed it with Doc Rivers, and now they are no longer a joke.

This team needs an infusion of elite talent and a personality to rally around. The "Hard Work Lunch Pail Gang" isn't going to change anything or attract anyone. This route? We HOPE we can overpay in a Joe Johnson type scenario for a young unproven free agent to choose us.

[Wretch]

Last time over .500:

Washington - 2007/08 season = 7 years

Toronto - 2007/08 season = 7 years

Phoenix 2009/10 season = 4 years

Congrats - took you long enough!!!

The only thing I'll say to this, and you are right BTW, but if either of those teams get to the conference finals or NBA finals before we do then...

A) They will have gone further than we have in 40+ years and...

B) All of those losing years will disappear and their fans wouldn't trade the experience for more "competitive" seasons. Ask Celtics fans if they would trade theirs.

Also, it's not a given that rebuilding team will be stuck in perpetual rebuilding anymore than it is a given that they will draft the next Durant/LeBron/Duncan.

On a side note, God willing, I can't wait until 2024 to look back on all this....like we look back on 2004 today. lol :D

[Guest]

The only thing I'll say to this, and you are right BTW, but if either of those teams get to the conference finals or NBA finals before we do then...

A) They will have gone further than we have in 40+ years and...

B) All of those losing years will disappear and their fans wouldn't trade the experience for more "competitive" seasons. Ask Celtics fans if they would trade theirs.

Also, it's not a given that rebuilding team will be stuck in perpetual rebuilding anymore than it is a given that they will draft the next Durant/LeBron/Duncan.

On a side note, God willing, I can't wait until 2024 to look back on all this....like we look back on 2004 today. lol

LOL, very true - winning cures all. I can't wait to look back in 10 years. Wonder what the squawk will be like then.

My only point was in making reference to the time frame and being over .500 this season.

Edited March 18, 2014 by JayBirdHawk

[Wretch]

LOL, very true - winning cures all. I can't wait to look back in 10 years. Wonder what the squawk will be like then.

My only point was in making reference to the time frame and being over .500 this season.

I know and trust me, I have thought this through many times... The thought of enduring 20 win seasons does not excite me...and having to endure another Marvin, Sheldon, or even Childress sickens me. Being a lottery team for 7 years? Oh man...*shudder* At the same time, I look at it like it's a necessary evil. To me, the alternative is less promising and far more nauseating.

I really can't sit here and watch another 10 years of FLIRTING with a few wins in the 2nd round of the playoffs. If we could make the ECF's, then every game is like dream where we're like, "OMG...we could be in the finals!" We've had very few games over the 30 years I've watched this team where I've felt that excitement. And that was just us FLIRTING with a few wins in the 2nd round.

A trip to the ECF's or Finals would erase every bad Hawks memory I have. I think it would certainly wipe 4-5 years of rebuilding. Honestly, I'd rather just get on with it.

[NBASupes]

By comparison, the Hawks have one of the most successful teams in the NBA. We had strong playoff runs in the 80's, 90's, and when Joe and the baby birds matured in the late 2000's. If you're just looking at wins and losses, this is a WINNING culture.

Conversely, look at the Los Angeles Clippers franchise...which is the poster child for ineptitude. They embodied tanking and losing and are really the antithesis of what we have accomplished.

Nobody cares because at the moment, the Clippers have talent and they are in contention. They're not champions, they're just contending and that is really all you can ask for. The culture changed when they entered the title contention conversation. They got into that conversation when they brought Chris Paul on board. They sealed it with Doc Rivers, and now they are no longer a joke.

This team needs an infusion of elite talent and a personality to rally around. The "Hard Work Lunch Pail Gang" isn't going to change anything or attract anyone. This route? We HOPE we can overpay in a Joe Johnson type scenario for a young unproven free agent to choose us.

Contending in the NBA is the name of the game. Not just being good enough or having that star and not putting enough around it like the competition has. Atlanta don't seem to get that.

[Guest]

The New Draft Wheel:The wheel isnt going away, despite some initial fears it would allow consensus no. 1 picks to game their NBA destination by entering the draft only when a glamour team was up next. Mike Zarren, the Celtics assistant general manager and the architect of the wheel, has already presented Silver with revised alternatives that would address this issue and several others, per Silver and other sources.The wheel may not end up looking much like a wheel at all; Zarren has reorganized it so that groups of randomly selected teams might hop through buckets of six picks say, picks 1-6 in one season, and 25-30 the next season over a five-year span, instead of the original 30-year system in which teams cycle through each specific pick one by one. Within each bucket, a mini lottery would determine which team gets which pick. The goal is to give bad teams hope of snagging a higher pick more quickly.Regardless of its final physical form, the wheel would eliminate the link between record and draft position. Entire article: http://grantland.com/features/wheel-of-misfortune/

[AHF]

This line makes no sense unless it is only about the point of changes relative to the prior inane wheel model:

The goal is to give bad teams hope of snagging a higher pick more quickly.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The only thing I'll say to this, and you are right BTW, but if either of those teams get to the conference finals or NBA finals before we do then...

A) They will have gone further than we have in 40+ years and...

B) All of those losing years will disappear and their fans wouldn't trade the experience for more "competitive" seasons. Ask Celtics fans if they would trade theirs.

Also, it's not a given that rebuilding team will be stuck in perpetual rebuilding anymore than it is a given that they will draft the next Durant/LeBron/Duncan.

On a side note, God willing, I can't wait until 2024 to look back on all this....like we look back on 2004 today. lol

I was watching Numbers Never Lie on Monday, and they were talking about if it would be difficult for Phil Jackson to turn the Knicks back into contenders. They said the numbers said NO . . because . . .

11 of the 15 teams in the East have made it to the Conference Finals in the past 15 years.

When I first saw that, I said . . "no damn way that's right". Then I started doing the research.

Number of Eastern Conference appearances by team since 1999:

Detroit: 6 . . ( 1 NBA Title )

Miami: 5 . . ( 3 NBA Titles )

Boston: 4 . . ( 1 NBA Title )

Indiana: 4

New Jersey: 2

Cleveland: 2

NY Knicks: 2

Orlando: 2

Chicago: 1

Milwaukee: 1

Philadelphia: 1

So that is indeed 11 Eastern Conference teams that have been to the EC Finals since 1999. The crazy thing is that NINE of those teams have gone to the NBA Finals during that timespan. Only Chicago and Milwaukee didn't make it out of that group. And even Milwaukee can say that they lost in a Game 7 of the EC Finals vs Philly in 2001.

So then you look at the 4 who hasn't made it to the EC Finals during that time period, and what was their best playoff result over that time . . .

Toronto pushed Philly to 7 games in the EC Semis in 2001.

Atlanta played Chicago to 6 games in the 2011 EC Semis.

Washington got swept by Miami in the 2005 EC Semis.

Charlotte got swept by Orlando in the 1st round of the 2010 playoffs.

Honestly, that's incredible . . and depressing as hell from a Hawks fan standpoint. When the conference was at its weakest, we were one of the weaker non-playoff level teams. By the time we became good, the conference was strong and had superstars all over the place.

The Joe Johnson playoff teams may have made the EC Finals . . . if they played in the early 2000s. But using that type of hypothetical is meaningless because they DIDN'T play in the early 2000s. They played in the late 2000s - early 2010s.

And in this era, we have an NBA top 5 All-Time great playing in the conference. So just like in the 1990s with Jordan and the Bulls, and Bird in the 1980s, Lebron is probably going to take up one of those spots in the EC Finals.

So the question are . . can we be that OTHER TEAM in the EC Finals in the years to come? Can we field a team that is good enough to beat the Indianas, the Chicagos, and the Brooklyns in a 2nd round playoff series in the future? Can we be that team that is good enough to get a spot, if Lebron goes down to injury and his team is out of the mix?

The infamous NY Knicks in 1999, as an 8 seed, was the lowest seeded team to make it to the EC Finals during that 15 year period. But that was an anomaly, because it was a strike year, and it was a year in which the Knicks had various injuries to Ewing and Spreewell to suppress their win total.

But once they were healthy, they were obviously one of the best teams in the conference ( as evident by their 4 - 0 sweep of an Atlanta Hawks team that was 2 games from being the #1 seed in the playoffs that year ).

But normally, you have to be either the #1 or #2 team in the East, to make it to the EC Finals. A veteran Boston team made it as a 4 seed a few times. And two other teams made it as a 3 seed. But the trend is that the #1 and #2 seeds will most likely make it.

I'm still blown away that 9 East teams have gone to the NBA Finals in the past 15 years . . and we can't even get out of Round 2.

[macdaddy]

I was watching Numbers Never Lie on Monday, and they were talking about if it would be difficult for Phil Jackson to turn the Knicks back into contenders. They said the numbers said NO . . because . . .

11 of the 15 teams in the East have made it to the Conference Finals in the past 15 years.

When I first saw that, I said . . "no damn way that's right". Then I started doing the research.

Number of Eastern Conference appearances by team since 1999:

Detroit: 6 . . ( 1 NBA Title )

Miami: 5 . . ( 3 NBA Titles )

Boston: 4 . . ( 1 NBA Title )

Indiana: 4

New Jersey: 2

Cleveland: 2

NY Knicks: 2

Orlando: 2

Chicago: 1

Milwaukee: 1

Philadelphia: 1

So that is indeed 11 Eastern Conference teams that have been to the EC Finals since 1999. The crazy thing is that NINE of those teams have gone to the NBA Finals during that timespan. Only Chicago and Milwaukee didn't make it out of that group. And even Milwaukee can say that they lost in a Game 7 of the EC Finals vs Philly in 2001.

So then you look at the 4 who hasn't made it to the EC Finals during that time period, and what was their best playoff result over that time . . .

Toronto pushed Philly to 7 games in the EC Semis in 2001.

Atlanta played Chicago to 6 games in the 2011 EC Semis.

Washington got swept by Miami in the 2005 EC Semis.

Charlotte got swept by Orlando in the 1st round of the 2010 playoffs.

Honestly, that's incredible . . and depressing as hell from a Hawks fan standpoint. When the conference was at its weakest, we were one of the weaker non-playoff level teams. By the time we became good, the conference was strong and had superstars all over the place.

The Joe Johnson playoff teams may have made the EC Finals . . . if they played in the early 2000s. But using that type of hypothetical is meaningless because they DIDN'T play in the early 2000s. They played in the late 2000s - early 2010s.

And in this era, we have an NBA top 5 All-Time great playing in the conference. So just like in the 1990s with Jordan and the Bulls, and Bird in the 1980s, Lebron is probably going to take up one of those spots in the EC Finals.

So the question are . . can we be that OTHER TEAM in the EC Finals in the years to come? Can we field a team that is good enough to beat the Indianas, the Chicagos, and the Brooklyns in a 2nd round playoff series in the future? Can we be that team that is good enough to get a spot, if Lebron goes down to injury and his team is out of the mix?

The infamous NY Knicks in 1999, as an 8 seed, was the lowest seeded team to make it to the EC Finals during that 15 year period. But that was an anomaly, because it was a strike year, and it was a year in which the Knicks had various injuries to Ewing and Spreewell to suppress their win total.

But once they were healthy, they were obviously one of the best teams in the conference ( as evident by their 4 - 0 sweep of an Atlanta Hawks team that was 2 games from being the #1 seed in the playoffs that year ).

But normally, you have to be either the #1 or #2 team in the East, to make it to the EC Finals. A veteran Boston team made it as a 4 seed a few times. And two other teams made it as a 3 seed. But the trend is that the #1 and #2 seeds will most likely make it.

I'm still blown away that 9 East teams have gone to the NBA Finals in the past 15 years . . and we can't even get out of Round 2.

Great stuff! That is incredible and I wouldn't have guessed that either. Now how many lottery picks are there between Atlanta, Charlotte, Washington, and Toronto in that time frame? Just kidding. Don't want to start that war again really.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Great stuff! That is incredible and I wouldn't have guessed that either. Now how many lottery picks are there between Atlanta, Charlotte, Washington, and Toronto in that time frame? Just kidding. Don't want to start that war again really.

The answer is 34 lottery picks amongst those 4 teams. 9 each for Charlotte, Washington, and Toronto. 7 for Atlanta.Best lottery pick out of this group is probably Pau Gasol ... whom we traded for Shareef. Edited March 19, 2014 by TheNorthCydeRises

[Plainview1981]

Great stuff! That is incredible and I wouldn't have guessed that either. Now how many lottery picks are there between Atlanta, Charlotte, Washington, and Toronto in that time frame? Just kidding. Don't want to start that war again really.

I haven't been a "positive' fan since that NY series. That was ugly.

[Admin]

Ferry talks about Changing a Culture. BK invented "changing a culture"... But

Washington, Toronoto, and Phoenix are actually doing it?!!!?

These teams are over .500. The question is what is their secret? AND Can the Hawks copy it?

What do you think the Hawks did from 2007-2013? We went from a non-playoff laughing stock of the league to a team who could at least compete in the playoffs. Just because we've had 1 year with an enormous amount of injuries that's left us a little under .500 I don't see any type of culture problem here. In fact I'd say we have the opposite, we have a terrific culture with this team that's let a group of lesser talented guys compete against teams we have no business competing with.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

What do you think the Hawks did from 2007-2013? We went from a non-playoff laughing stock of the league to a team who could at least compete in the playoffs. Just because we've had 1 year with an enormous amount of injuries that's left us a little under .500 I don't see any type of culture problem here. In fact I'd say we have the opposite, we have a terrific culture with this team that's let a group of lesser talented guys compete against teams we have no business competing with.

I somewhat disagree with this

Paul Millsap can ball, and is a starter caliber player in this league. He showed that he had talent in Utah, and elevated his game when Horford went out to make his 1st All-Star team.

Before Teague collapsed in January, people were talking about him sneaking in the back door and possibly making the All-Star team.

Korver is the best spot up shooter in the league.

Lou Williams was a 6th man of the Year candidate a mere 2 years ago, and had big time scoring games for us before he went out with the ACL last season.

Those 4 alone will keep a team "competitive" on most nights.

Brand is a decent veteran who can still contribute defensively, and still has an occasional jumper left in him.

Mike Scott showed even last year that he can score the basketball.

DeMarre Carroll was a key bench guy for the Jazz last year

Even Shelvin last year was decent in the backup PG role.

This is NOT a talentless team when you match them up against the non-playoff level teams. And at home, they can beat lower level playoff teams. The problem, is that the GM basically brought in offense first type of guys who can't hold their own on defense most nights. So if they don't outscore you in the 100s, they're usually not winning the game. And this is why when Millsap misses a few games, or their defensive guy in DeMarre misses a few games, the entire team suffers.

To call this a "terrific culture", when we need to be completely healthy to win games, is just overselling what the GM has done so far. If the GM wasn't going to tank, and he had 30+ million to spend in free agency, there's no way we should've regressed this year as a team ( even with the injuries ).

The facts are that even before Horford went down, we were beating lower level teams, and winning some home games vs good teams . . . but we couldn't beat even halfway decent teams on the road to save our lives. Until that changes in the coming seasons, people really can't celebrate the "culture" as being better than what we had in the past.

People try to play both sides of the fence with the Hawks. On one hand, they say that the team is sorry, and is overachieving. On the other hand, they say that if we hadn't got everybody hurt in January and February, that we'd be challenging for the #3 seed.

Edited March 19, 2014 by TheNorthCydeRises