This thing is over at this point: Hawks will make playoffs

[Eddielives]

Nowhere has anyone who is pro tanking suggested that just getting a lottery pick instantly equals superstar and a championship run. And as for this draft, we are looking at drafting 16th as we currently stand versus somewhere around 10 if the Knicks, Cavaliers or Pistons could overtake us. This draft is deep enough that there is a legitimate chance that you could get a really really good player that high....and please don't misinterpret that to mean that I am saying we definitely would. But it's our best shot to improve our team going into next year since Horford got hurt again and we really stood no chance after that. I have argued against the hopelessness of luring a big free agent and I still do to an extent. Especially since we seem to have respect around the league for our new coaching staff. Perhaps that will be a determining factor in the next few years. But adding a top ten pick in this draft this year would be ideal towards improving this franchise possibly for years to come. That is not an opinion, that is just acknowledging the facts as they are for this franchise.

[Atlantaholic]

I don't think tanking makes any sense since you cannot predict with any degree whatsoever of certainty where you will draft or how your draft pick will develop. We've had top picks already and it has led us nowhere, so who is to say this year will be the exception. Yes, yes, this is the best draft all time (or something along those lines) yet historically countless, "can't miss" players turned out to be duds, who'se to say Wiggins won't be the next Marvin, or Embid the next Oden? The only thing you can control is your current performance. As mediocre as we've been and as little success as we've had in luring FAs do you guys seriously think that being last place is more enticing for potential signings than being a playoff team? Does it benefit this organization, which is run by cheap ownership, to miss out on playoff revenue? Do people forget what it was like to cheer for the JT-Shareef, and young Smoove and Chilldress teams? (both teams were built around tanking btw).

The most exciting playoff series this franchise has had since the Nique days was when our #8 seeded Hawks took championship Boston to seven games, so I for one prefer to see how this Hawks team (which has shown flashes of being very good, even without Horf) takes on one of two possible teams that are slumping to end the season. Whatever potential FAs or draft picks may end up being ours is a mystery regardless of where we end up in the standings, so wishing to lose just to have a chance at what is effectively a complete unknown is misguided IMO. Everyone is tired of seeing this team bump it's head in the second round, the attendance speaks for itself, but people acting like tanking will solve our problems need a reality check, because tanking guarantees nothing except having our team lose games now which they could be winning. Might aswell enjoy what we have and cross our fingers in FAs and draft, just like every other teams' fans outside of the championship winner will be doing. What most GMs will never admit is that at the end of the day championships are built mostly on luck. If getting a superstar was as easy as some of you make it out to be, every team would have one. Truth is the majority of teams in this league are stuck at the level where the Hawks are or worse regardless of where they have picked in the last few drafts, it's just reality.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Atlantaholic

[benhillboy]

I haven't seen one respectable example of tanking being successful. The Cavs are a still a laughing stock after 3, count em 3, #1s in the last 11 years. Tim Duncan IS NOT A SUPERSTAR! There isnt a single physical raw skill or talent that blows you away about him. None. If he were a "superstar" in the sense you all mean, KG wouldn't have made 90 million more dollars in his career and Michael Carter William's jersey wouldn't be more popular. Saying he was a consensus Big that was a no brainer doesn't work. Heard of Olowokandi, Bargnani, Bowie, Oden? The fundamemtal phenom who can tailor his game to be productive at 37 that you see today is the result of constant development, which our HC had a big hand in. The Spurs have had the most success in the last 15 years because of everyone in the franchise pulling their weight and totally committing to the franchise model, period. You do realize their second and third most heralded, HOF-considerable players were drafted 28th and 57th, right? By tankers' logic, after they were embarrassed by the Grizzlies in that First Round, they should've blown it up. Lucky for them, they didn't and have been a Top 4 contender every year since.Every superstar player that realized they couldn't do it themselves would laugh in you people's faces thinking one guy is a savior. Phil said it best today "I believe in system basketball". Arguably the Greatest Player ever had to buy into his triangle, ball sharing set after he got tired of losing to better teams who lacked a comparable individual talent. You gonna dispute the word of a 13-Time Champion?

Edited March 18, 2014 by benhillboy

[AHF]

I haven't seen one respectable example of tanking being successful. The Cavs are a still a laughing stock after 3, count em 3, #1s in the last 11 years. Tim Duncan IS NOT A SUPERSTAR! There isnt a single physical raw skill or talent that blows you away about him. None. If he were a "superstar" in the sense you all mean, KG wouldn't have made 90 million more dollars in his career and Michael Carter William's jersey wouldn't be more popular. Saying he was a consensus Big that was a no brainer doesn't work. Heard of Olowokandi, Bargnani, Bowie, Oden? The fundamemtal phenom who can tailor his game to be productive at 37 that you see today is the result of constant development, which our HC had a big hand in. The Spurs have had the most success in the last 15 years because of everyone in the franchise pulling their weight and totally committing to the franchise model, period. You do realize their second and third most heralded, HOF-considerable players were drafted 28th and 57th, right? By tankers' logic, after they were embarrassed by the Grizzlies in that First Round, they should've blown it up. Lucky for them, they didn't and have been a Top 4 contender every year since.Every superstar player that realized they couldn't do it themselves would laugh in you people's faces thinking one guy is a savior. Phil said it best today "I believe in system basketball". Arguably the Greatest Player ever had to buy into his triangle, ball sharing set after he got tired of losing to better teams who lacked a comparable individual talent. You gonna dispute the word of a 13-Time Champion?

There are lots of champions who won their core with terrible, terrible seasons leading to the drafting of their superstar.

If you don't consider Tim Duncan a superstar then we are done talking now, however. He is a top 10 player in NBA history and doesn't qualify as a superstar. Right.

[Sothron]

There are lots of champions who won their core with terrible, terrible seasons leading to the drafting of their superstar.

If you don't consider Tim Duncan a superstar then we are done talking now, however. He is a top 10 player in NBA history and doesn't qualify as a superstar. Right.

This right here. Anyone that tells me Duncan is not a superstar just disqualified themselves from any serious basketball conversation.

[nathan2331]

This right here. Anyone that tells me Duncan is not a superstar just disqualified themselves from any serious basketball conversation.

I think he means he's not "your superstar" in the sense that he isn't some flashy, marketable player who everybody fawns over (not that I agree with that sentiment). Duncan has benefited immensely from the Spurs system no doubt, but I think I don't think it's much of a stretch to say Duncan helps make that system too.Duncan was (most probably) going to be great, that's why he was drafted first). The Spurs system on the other hand may not work if they don't have Duncan.

[Guest]

Tank - Not tank: saying Tim Duncan is not a SuperStar? In what world.Did San Antonio tank intentionally ala Philly? No - injuries to David Robinson and Sean Elliot derailed the season. Indeed! Could they have come back sooner? Maybe.What San Antonio didn't do was gut their team at the trade deadline to deliberately get worse so that when Tim Duncan arrived he wasn't expected to lead the team. He had bonafide players around him, a complete team. David Robinson was still the man.

[Mdizzle5]

I think he means he's not "your superstar" in the sense that he isn't some flashy, marketable player who everybody fawns over (not that I agree with that sentiment). Duncan has benefited immensely from the Spurs system no doubt, but I think I don't think it's much of a stretch to say Duncan helps make that system too.Duncan was (most probably) going to be great, that's why he was drafted first). The Spurs system on the other hand may not work if they don't have Duncan.

That is EXACTLY the point that I was trying to make.

[Guest]

That is EXACTLY the point that I was trying to make.

Pop's system has also evolved as Duncan has aged. They were a dominant low post defensive team featuring 1st DR then TD - then Manu had his turn as the focal point - now it revolves around Parker.

[Eddielives]

Any comment that suggests that Tim is not a superstar, in any respect, has stumbled out of the logic starting gate. Please reset and start over. And again, who here has suggested that being in the lottery is a guarantee of anything other than maybe increasing our chances of landing a potential future star? Why all the red herrings? I think the original point is that we would be better off for our future by being in a position in the top ten of this draft versus 16 or higher which is where we are now? How is that not a valid point? All I hear are irrelevant statements that are not addressing the orginal premise.

[Eddielives]

Let me correct my statement above by saying that gsuteke did not make any assertion of his personal feelings about not being in the lottery as it pertains to our future....just that he believes we won't be in the lottery and what we will do against Indiana or Miami.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Eddielives

[benhillboy]

Let's not be silly. No one can tell me the Greatness of Tim. I'm willing to bet I've mentioned his name in more posts than almost everyone else combined. "Superstar" and "All-Time Great" aren't the same. Kim Kardasian is a superstar.

Why did everyone gloss over the fact his jersey is less popular than MCW? I guess if you like tanking so much then the Sixers are your team. Why has his career peer, KG, earned an extra max contract over his career? Winning multiple championships hasn't seemed to translate to his popularity, at all. So that's what I mean by "superstar', check the definition. To go back and say everyone projected him to be the Greatest 4 Ever and 17-year lynchpin for a dynasty is extremely false, so this revisionist history that the Spurs knew they signed up for 4 Titles by tanking to get him is ridiculous IMO. If they did indeed do that, don't you think Bud would've shut us down after Al went down like you all say the Spurs did after Dave was lost? I don't think he was there but surely he and Pop have discussed it and laughed at the notion of losing on purpose. And no one touched on the failures of all those other #1s who were actually 7 feet (or add the franchise PGs Rose and Irving in a minute) or how the Spurs have 2 HOFs basically taken in the second round, but tanking then depending on a lottery ball is a smart basketball operation. Right. Last I checked San An wasn't a big FA destination. Why didn't they tank after the bad series loss to Memphis in the First Round? I mean the Treadmilling Hawks have done better than that in recent memory, why didn't they go into full tank mode the next year? Hell, why not tank every year to get in the lottery?

Again, I think I know Tim's game, and there isn't a single tangible athletic basketball skill that you can name that he soars over all his peers at. Throughout his career there have always been more impressive blockers, rebounders, shooters, runners, jumpers, anything you can name at the 4 and 5. See Young Amare who used to trash Tim. All the physical characteristics you salivate over when looking for that franchise guy, he lacks. The ONE thing that makes him easily the Greatest 4 ever is his BASKETBALL IQ!!! As Great of a Player he was/ is he'll be an even better executive. And guess what, he was drafted by an organization that realizes the importance of filling a 15-man roster and organizatonal brass with like-minded individuals who all feed off of each other's basketball intelligence. The tangible characteristics tankers are looking for in a savior don't translate to championship contention or maximizing the team concept. Jabari Parker, this year's great prize from what I'm hearing, is most comparable to Carmelo. What great shape he and his franchise are in. Embiid will have injury concerns all over the place. Wiggins is tentative. Smart is crazy. Smith is small. McDermott could be Bird-like or Morrison. These guys aren't perfect nor do they come with guarantees, yet you all act like they do.

I'm not a fool and opposed to a great young player at all. I'm convinced Bud and his staff could coach up a young player as good as if not better than all the other 29 teams. It's just simple life lessons of not placing all your eggs in one basket (that could easily turn out to be a bust or made of glass). I'm a heavy proponent of team-building. Asking this team to lose games at the expense of 8 (yeah count em, 8) guys we are presently rapidly developing into better players is just wrong. We got our backup center back and incoincidentally have won 5 straight. That does infinitely more for the confidence of the guys we do have instead of telling them "wait on this kid who's never played a second in the league."

Edited March 19, 2014 by benhillboy

[macdaddy]

Let's not be silly. No one can tell me the Greatness of Tim. I'm willing to bet I've mentioned his name in more posts than almost everyone else combined. "Superstar" and "All-Time Great" aren't the same. Kim Kardasian is a superstar.

Why did everyone gloss over the fact his jersey is less popular than MCW? I guess if you like tanking so much then the Sixers are your team. Why has his career peer, KG, earned an extra max contract over his career? Winning multiple championships hasn't seemed to translate to his popularity, at all. So that's what I mean by "superstar', check the definition. To go back and say everyone projected him to be the Greatest 4 Ever and 17-year lynchpin for a dynasty is extremely false, so this revisionist history that the Spurs knew they signed up for 4 Titles by tanking to get him is ridiculous IMO. If they did indeed do that, don't you think Bud would've shut us down after Al went down like you all say the Spurs did after Dave was lost? I don't think he was there but surely he and Pop have discussed it and laughed at the notion of losing on purpose. And no one touched on the failures of all those other #1s who were actually 7 feet (or add the franchise PGs Rose and Irving in a minute) or how the Spurs have 2 HOFs basically taken in the second round, but tanking then depending on a lottery ball is a smart basketball operation. Right. Last I checked San An wasn't a big FA destination. Why didn't they tank after the bad series loss to Memphis in the First Round? I mean the Treadmilling Hawks have done better than that in recent memory, why didn't they go into full tank mode the next year? Hell, why not tank every year to get in the lottery?

Again, I think I know Tim's game, and there isn't a single tangible athletic basketball skill that you can name that he soars over all his peers at. Throughout his career there have always been more impressive blockers, rebounders, shooters, runners, jumpers, anything you can name at the 4 and 5. See Young Amare who used to trash Tim. All the physical characteristics you salivate over when looking for that franchise guy, he lacks. The ONE thing that makes him easily the Greatest 4 ever is his BASKETBALL IQ!!! As Great of a Player he was/ is he'll be an even better executive. And guess what, he was drafted by an organization that realizes the importance of filling a 15-man roster and organizatonal brass with like-minded individuals who all feed off of each other's basketball intelligence. The tangible characteristics tankers are looking for in a savior don't translate to championship contention or maximizing the team concept. Jabari Parker, this year's great prize from what I'm hearing, is most comparable to Carmelo. What great shape he and his franchise are in. Embiid will have injury concerns all over the place. Wiggins is tentative. Smart is crazy. Smith is small. McDermott could be Bird-like or Morrison. These guys aren't perfect nor do they come with guarantees, yet you all act like they do.

I'm not a fool and opposed to a great young player at all. I'm convinced Bud and his staff could coach up a young player as good as if not better than all the other 29 teams. It's just simple life lessons of not placing all your eggs in one basket (that could easily turn out to be a bust or made of glass). I'm a heavy proponent of team-building. Asking this team to lose games at the expense of 8 (yeah count em, 8) guys we are presently rapidly developing into better players is just wrong. We got our backup center back and incoincidentally have won 5 straight. That does infinitely more for the confidence of the guys we do have instead of telling them "wait on this kid who's never played a second in the league."

[HawkItus]

All you people talking about Tim Duncan......who did he bring to SA? Who did Barkley bring? Who did Malone and Stockton bring? The only examples of guys bringing somebody to their city is DWADE and maybe Harden. That's it. Who else has done it? So kill all the get a superstar and people will want to come to Atlanta. That is just a down right inaccurate statement.

[gsuteke]

Let me correct my statement above by saying that gsuteke did not make any assertion of his personal feelings about not being in the lottery as it pertains to our future....just that he believes we won't be in the lottery and what we will do against Indiana or Miami.

This thread got hijacked. My OP came with the acceptance that the tanking discussion is over.

[BrazilianHawk]

New Orleans with Chris Paul: 4-3 Second Round Loss Last Equaled by Hawks in 1988

Cleveland with Lebron James: NBA Finals appearance never equaled by Atlanta Hawks

Orlando with Dwight Howard: NBA Finals appearance never equaled by Atlanta Hawks

Chicago Bulls: Eastern Conference Finals appearance never equaled by Atlanta HAwks

So thanks for making our point even when you are trying to use prominent failures. Still better than what the Hawks have done without a star.

So, which of the ones listed above were champions again? I mean, before their GMs making other moves?

If you lose in the finals, you're STILL a loser.

Chris Paul hasn't won squat. in fact, he's won the exact amount of championships Marvin Williams did.

LeBron had to make "the decision" because he wouldn't ever win it by himself.

Dwight... Oh, Dwight. Don't get me started. Call me when the diva has won a championship.

Rose has never won anything as well, and now his career might be approaching it's end.

Durant, Westbrook and the Beard went to the finals. And lost. To a team assembled by its GM in free agency.

Please don't come with that Wade is a great part of their success. He's amazing, yes, but without LeBron and Bosh he barely could make the playoffs. and then resort to thuggery.

So no. I won't gut this team and hope for a superhero in the draft. They can do nothing by themselves. I enjoy winning, even if my team can't win it all.