Official Game Thread: Hawks - Raptors

[macdaddy]

If he were steadily getting better then yeah I would think so but there's nothing to indicate that he's getting better. The only thing better about this season is he's handling the ball a lot more and shooting a lot more. Right now his ws/48 is down for a 3rd consecutive year and that's a sign of a player trending down. He may turn it around but I see no reason to believe that will be the case.

I'll admit to not understanding win shares but that's a lot of importance to put on any one stat. Don't you think that total change in the teams offense from year to year would play into that? He is the starting PG on the team leading the nba in assists.

[Admin]

So he doesn't look better to you at all now as he matures into his role in Bud's system?

Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't. The guy who can knock down the 3, be aggressive offensively and protects the ball is a darn fine PG. The guy who's passive, afraid to take shots and is careless with the ball is a very poor PG. Until he's like the former most of the time I'm not going to put much faith into him as our future at the position.

[Admin]

I'll admit to not understanding win shares but that's a lot of importance to put on any one stat. Don't you think that total change in the teams offense from year to year would play into that? He is the starting PG on the team leading the nba in assists.

WS/48 seems to be just about the most widely accepted overall measure of a players value so while I don't totally understand it either (which will piss of @hawksfanatic with me using it) it seems to be very accurate as to his value. 3 years ago Jeff had a career year and ever since then he's gotten steadily worse.

Yeah he's the starting PG of the team leading the NBA in assists but that doesn't mean much when we have 6 guys averaging at least 2.5 apg. By comparison, the team we are now tied with in that category only has 4 guys averaging that many.

[Peoriabird]

Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't. The guy who can knock down the 3, be aggressive offensively and protects the ball is a darn fine PG. The guy who's passive, afraid to take shots and is careless with the ball is a very poor PG. Until he's like the former most of the time I'm not going to put much faith into him as our future at the position.

Last 10 Games 10 32.3 .485 3.5 6.8 0.4 1.1 1.7 17.9

So you wouldn't take 18 ppg 7 apg 1 spg while shooting 48 percent from the field?

[macdaddy]

WS/48 seems to be just about the most widely accepted overall measure of a players value so while I don't totally understand it either (which will piss of @hawksfanatic with me using it) it seems to be very accurate as to his value. 3 years ago Jeff had a career year and ever since then he's gotten steadily worse.

Yeah he's the starting PG of the team leading the NBA in assists but that doesn't mean much when we have 6 guys averaging at least 2.5 apg. By comparison, the team we are now tied with in that category only has 4 guys averaging that many.

That's my point though. He's still averaging good assists numbers despite the fact that the whole team, via the offense, is involved in distributing the ball. Anyway, I'm still pretty optimistic. The playoffs will be a good measuring stick to see if he can bring it when it counts.

[GrimeyKidd]

Id take teague if you asked me to pick

[willthepureshooter]

Teague will be picked over Lowry everytime. . Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

[Admin]

Last 10 Games 10 32.3 .485 3.5 6.8 0.4 1.1 1.7 17.9

So you wouldn't take 18 ppg 7 apg 1 spg while shooting 48 percent from the field?

His last 10 games he's been good. But you are ignoring the 6 weeks before that where he was well below average. Again as I've said a thousand times it's about his lack of consistency that is my issue with him. What makes it doubly frustrating is that he's shown he can be this quality starting PG and yet there are many games where he refuses to be that guy.

[Admin]

That's my point though. He's still averaging good assists numbers despite the fact that the whole team, via the offense, is involved in distributing the ball. Anyway, I'm still pretty optimistic. The playoffs will be a good measuring stick to see if he can bring it when it counts.

If Teague can play like this for the rest of the season and the playoffs then I'll be in his corner. But fool me once... and we've been fooled far too many times by the Teague Show for me to expect it on a regular basis.

Using the site that @TheNorthCydeRises likes so much, Teague ranks 20th right now in EFF among PGs (Lowry is 4th). However, over the past 10 games he's been the 11th best (Lowry is 2nd).

In March he's 4-5 in W-L vs his opponent. Neither of these are flattering or worth really getting excited about with Teague.

[benhillboy]

Teague isn't very good at passing behind him. He misses Kyle on open pop outs EVERY time in lieu of driving into the teeth of the defense, which usually ends in non-foul calls, Teague shouting at the ref and hanging his head, and not getting back. I think the moving parts in the motion are a little too much to process consistently for him. He was very comfortable with the Al PNR. Jeff's lack of court vision causes the second and third options off the action to disintegrate now that the security blanket with the automatic 18 footer is gone. His turnovers being at a career high when our team assists are through the roof is troubling, but I'll always hold out hope that he can regain his early season form of being ultra-aggressive that had us all jocking. I'd say he and Lowry are neck and neck, either or isn't the wrong choice.

Edited March 20, 2014 by benhillboy

[macdaddy]

If Teague can play like this for the rest of the season and the playoffs then I'll be in his corner. But fool me once... and we've been fooled far too many times by the Teague Show for me to expect it on a regular basis.

Using the site that @TheNorthCydeRises likes so much, Teague ranks 20th right now in EFF among PGs (Lowry is 4th). However, over the past 10 games he's been the 11th best (Lowry is 2nd).

In March he's 4-5 in W-L vs his opponent. Neither of these are flattering or worth really getting excited about with Teague.

Well that is just EFFing bs. I had to look up EFF but you know Teague isn't a good shooter and most PGs are. So he's not going to compare well in those stats.

[macdaddy]

Teague isn't very good at passing behind him. He misses Kyle on open pop outs EVERY time in lieu of driving into the teeth of the defense, which usually ends in non-foul calls, Teague shouting at the ref and hanging his head, and not getting back. I think the moving parts in the motion are a little too much to process consistently for him. He was very comfortable with the Al PNR. Jeff's lack of court vision causes the second and third options off the action to disintegrate now that the security blanket with the automatic 18 footer is gone. His turnovers being at a career high when our team assists are through the roof is troubling, but I'll always hold out hope that he can regain his early season form of being ultra-aggressive that had us all jocking.

To be honest, even though i'm a big supporter, i don't disagree with this. He's a decent passer but he's either looking to score or looking to pass but usually he's decided way ahead of time. Still he's our man and he can do some things.

[Peoriabird]

His last 10 games he's been good. But you are ignoring the 6 weeks before that where he was well below average. Again as I've said a thousand times it's about his lack of consistency that is my issue with him. What makes it doubly frustrating is that he's shown he can be this quality starting PG and yet there are many games where he refuses to be that guy.

So the answer is yes. Good. So over what time period would he need to sustatin this level of play without changes to the roster like earlier this year before you can accept him as a starting point guard?

[Guest]

He's a decent passer but he's either looking to score or looking to pass but usually he's decided way ahead of time.

Exactly this!!

[Admin]

So the answer is yes. Good. So over what time period would he need to sustatin this level of play without changes to the roster like earlier this year before you can accept him as a starting point guard?

What's so hard to understand that this is the norm for him and it's not because of missing guys? He has been progressively worse for the 3rd straight year now and I guess we could make up a list of excuses for that but at some point you have to realize that he is what he is, an average PG.

But if he plays an entire season and averages a WS/48 of .131 to match his career high of 3 years ago then I'll be very happy with him. Of course that's still only about half of what Chris Paul does but that's not fair to compare them. That's still far better than 1/3 of Chris Paul like he's been this year.

[Admin]

To be honest, even though i'm a big supporter, i don't disagree with this. He's a decent passer but he's either looking to score or looking to pass but usually he's decided way ahead of time. Still he's our man and he can do some things.

So you're saying he's a system QB who can't read the entire field and the OC has to put him in the best position to succeed by cutting off half the field to make his reads easier? In this case Peyton Manning would be Chris Paul in the NBA and Matt Cassel would be Jeff Teague in the NBA. That's about the difference in their rankings and abilities.

[Peoriabird]

What's so hard to understand that this is the norm for him and it's not because of missing guys? He has been progressively worse for the 3rd straight year now and I guess we could make up a list of excuses for that but at some point you have to realize that he is what he is, an average PG.

But if he plays an entire season and averages a WS/48 of .131 to match his career high of 3 years ago then I'll be very happy with him. Of course that's still only about half of what Chris Paul does but that's not fair to compare them. That's still far better than 1/3 of Chris Paul like he's been this year.

So top 15th ranked point or better and you would be satisfied? And what does the average point guard earns in the NBA anyway?

[Admin]

So top 15th ranked point or better and you would be satisfied? And what does the average point guard earns in the NBA anyway?

Top 15 for a season and I'd be satisfied. I would be happy if he were top 10. Teague has the 16th highest average salary among PGs in the league so if he can perform in the top 15 then he's doing ok. In the top 10 and we'll really start to see some value from him. The average salary among the top 50 highest paid PGs is $6,763,243.10 and top 25 is $10,085,211.19

http://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nba/average/point-guard/limit-50/

[Peoriabird]

So the top 25 gets paid on average 10 mil per season...Jeff get 8 mil and is clearly already a top 25 point guard but we are still not satisfied....but I'll accept your answer of top 15 to satisfy the fans that dislike him.

[Admin]

So the top 25 gets paid on average 10 mil per season...Jeff get 8 mil and is clearly already a top 25 point guard but we are still not satisfied....but I'll accept your answer of top 15 to satisfy the fans that dislike him.

Because it's skewed heavily by the top 10 guys. Here's the average salary by tier through the top 50.

1-10: $14.4 million

11-20: $8.2 million (Jeff Teague makes 8 million, 16th highest)

21-30: $5.3 million

31-40: $3.3 million

41-50: $2.5 million

You can say that those of us who are objective about him dislike him but after 5 years of up and down inconsistent play I think we are more than justified in our critique, especially seeing him get progressively worse the past 3 years. I'm not sure how you guys who like him so much can gloss over the FACT that he's gotten worse from 2011 to 2012, worse from 2012 to 2013 and now worse from 2013 to 2014. Those are FACTS so while his pay and responsibility has gone up his value to the team has gone down.