My problem with Ferry

[MaceCase]

Sap gives us a low post game, a high post game, a mid range game, a 3 point game, defends 3s-5s, assists better, steals better and blocks the same. Jefferson gives you a low post game and only a low post game mixed with better rebounding. So this is a case where you think one player is worth 21 million more for performing in one category over a player who performs in more categories. Common sense and analytics tell you otherwise.

[Diesel]

Sap gives us a low post game, a high post game, a mid range game, a 3 point game, defends 3s-5s, assists better, steals better and blocks the same. Jefferson gives you a low post game and only a low post game mixed with better rebounding. So this is a case where you think one player is worth 21 million more for performing in one category over a player who performs in more categories. Common sense and analytics tell you otherwise.

Championships are won with Dominance in the Low Post. Chris Webber was 5 times the player that Sap was from an all around perspective. He never sniffed a championship... because Shaq was always waiting on him. I don't disagree that Sap has value. However, for us, we would have been better with a dominant low post player. Period. When the Shots get streaky, you need somebody who can give you high percentage shots and draw attention. Our attention drawer was Teague because he could drive the lane. That doesn't work for championship play either.

[nathan2331]

It's not 21 million more, it's 4 million more in one season- Jefferson just has an extra year. And make no mistake, Jefferson was killing it during stretches in the season and was recognized for it. I'd rather have Millsap, but Jefferson would do a lot for us, namely moving Al to the 4.

[Guest]

It's not 21 million more, it's 4 million more in one season- Jefferson just has an extra year. And make no mistake, Jefferson was killing it during stretches in the season and was recognized for it. I'd rather have Millsap, but Jefferson would do a lot for us, namely moving Al to the 4.

It is 21 million over the life of the two contracts.

I guess DF considered the combo of Millsap/Horford to be more VERSATILE than a Horford/Jefferson combo.

We can debate the merits of each combination but please don't make it sound like taking Millsap over Jefferson was akin to taking George Hill in lieu of Tony Parker.

[nathan2331]

It is 21 million over the life of the two contracts.

I guess DF considered the combo of Millsap/Horford to be more VERSATILE than a Horford/Jefferson combo.

We can debate the merits of each combination but please don't make it sound like taking Millsap over Jefferson was akin to taking George Hill in lieu of Tony Parker.

I'm not trying to sell Millsap short. I was just trying to say the gap is close between the two.

[MaceCase]

I'm not trying to sell Millsap short. I was just trying to say the gap is close between the two.

Is the gap in salary smaller or greater than the gap in production?

[MaceCase]

Championships are won with Dominance in the Low Post. Chris Webber was 5 times the player that Sap was from an all around perspective. He never sniffed a championship... because Shaq was always waiting on him. I don't disagree that Sap has value. However, for us, we would have been better with a dominant low post player. Period. When the Shots get streaky, you need somebody who can give you high percentage shots and draw attention. Our attention drawer was Teague because he could drive the lane. That doesn't work for championship play either.

Sounds great except Al Jefferson will never play the main role on a championship team so it's entirely pointless to mention him in the same sentence.

[Vol4ever]

mace,

Please name players we can acquire that can handle that "main role" on a championship contender. Obviously no one on our roster qualifies.

[Diesel]

Sounds great except Al Jefferson will never play the main role on a championship team so it's entirely pointless to mention him in the same sentence.

Neither will Kevin Love, LaMarcus Aldridge, Kyrie Irving, Kevin Durant or Dwight Howard. Does this make them bad players? There's only 1 champion every year. Moreover, the NBA chooses it's face.

[MaceCase]

mace,

Please name players we can acquire that can handle that "main role" on a championship contender. Obviously no one on our roster qualifies.

Look up the 2015 free agency, you know the year the Hawks will have cap space while Jefferson will be mulling over his 13.5 million option.

[MaceCase]

Neither will Kevin Love, LaMarcus Aldridge, Kyrie Irving, Kevin Durant or Dwight Howard. Does this make them bad players? There's only 1 champion every year. Moreover, the NBA chooses it's face.

Both Durant and Dwight have led their teams to the Finals...Jefferson has gone to the playoffs thrice.

Moreover all of those players have other hardware and awards that Jefferson is not in possession of so again, the comparison is useless.

[HawkItus]

How I feel every time I wonder into one of these bash Ferry/Tank threads......

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Take everyone's flavor of the week, Al Jefferson. Did he produce 21 million worth better than Millsap? The answer is no but that hasn't stopped you and others from using that as a negative against Ferry. 21 million is a small price to pay for a marginally better player it seems.

The issue here isn't his ego as he's not doing anything unconventional. The issue here isn't that he doesn't value stars as any claim otherwise is unfounded. The issue here is plenty of fans are still fond of overpaying 2nd and 3rd tier players while Ferry looks to get a steal when dealing with players in that tier.

Oh wow. First off, I could've sworn I responded to this last night on my phone, but I guess I hit the wrong button or something.

Haha @ produce 21 million worth better than Millsap. Gotta love how you play with numbers like that, knowing full well that Millsap got a 9.5 million contract over 2 years compared to Jefferson's 13.5 million over 3 years ( with an option in Year 3 ). So let's see what the "value" of Al Jefferson was to the Bobcats this season

- Averaged almost 22 ppg and 11 rebs while shooting 51% FG

- Had a MONSTER 2nd half of the season ( 24+ ppg - 11+ rebs - 53% FG )

- Increased the Bobcats win total by a WHOPPING 22 games ( from 21 wins to 43 wins )

- Led the Bobcats to the playoffs for the 1st time in 5 years

- And will likely make at least 3rd team All-NBA when those teams are announced this week

Millsap is a very good player. A versatile player I'm happy to have him here. But he's no Al Jefferson. Jefferson is literally a guy who can function as the engine of a team at almost a superstar level. People think Jefferson was overpaid. No he wasn't. That guy is an ELITE low post scorer and an ELITE rebounder. And his defense ( especially in the pick and roll ) is vastly improved under the Bobcats/Hornets new coach Steve Clifford.

I sincerely thought that if it were Charlotte that drew Indiana in that 1st round, Charlotte would've beaten that team. They would've beaten them because the Pacers had absolutely no one who could stop Jefferson . . and Kidd-Gilchrist is a good enough defender to keep George from going completely off on him. Charlotte didn't have better overall offensive talent than we did, but they were a better defensive team than we were. And they had something that we didn't have . . a legit go-to scorer. And his name was Al Jefferson.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

And let's talk about the 2 deals of Millsap and Jefferson for a minute. And it's going to be totally from a different perspective than what people think about them. What if those short contracts given to those two guys end up actually HURTING both teams?

Think about it. We sign Millsap ( a very good player ) to only a 2 year deal that ends next season. If he has the same type of season next year, that he had this year, what do you think the value of a versatile 29 year old PF is going to be? That value is going to be high . . . very high. Maybe even 13 - 14 million per year high.

So when the GM is faced with a situation like that next summer, involving a bidding war with Millsap, what do you think our great leader is going to do? Will he re-sign Sap . . or will he let him walk, and hang onto precious "cap space" so that he can make a run at Lebron, Wade, or Bosh in 2015? And if he re-signs or doesn't re-sign Millsap, how does that affect Horford the next year?

So while everyone praises that 2 year deal for Millsap, the worst case scenarios could be . . 1) we may still have to "overpay" him to keep him here . . or 2) we may flat out lose him, and not be able to replace him with a better player in free agency

And the same applies to Jefferson and the Hornets. If he has another season like he had this year, he could simply opt out and try to get that last big contract of his career. So instead of 13.5 million for one more year, he could flip that into a 45 million contract for the next 3 years, starting in 2015. The ball will be in Charlotte's court then. Do you re-sign at all costs the best player you've had since Larry Johnson, or do you say that is too much money, let him walk, and risk losing everything that they've built up at this point?

The GM's of the NBA have learned very little with this new CBA. They give 4 year deals to good, but one dimensional players like Korver, JJ Redick, and OJ Mayo . . but act like they're fiscally responsible when they UNDERPAY guys like Millsap and Jefferson.

But it's the history of this league that has shown that it's actually those long term mid level contracts for players that a team think they "need" that end up being killers for a team, not big contracts to guys who can actually play. It's deals like the one we gave Marvin, or the current 4 year - 32 million deal that George Hill is on, that will kill teams. Not actually paying STAR caliber players.

Edited May 27, 2014 by TheNorthCydeRises

[TheNorthCydeRises]

It's not 21 million more, it's 4 million more in one season- Jefferson just has an extra year. And make no mistake, Jefferson was killing it during stretches in the season and was recognized for it. I'd rather have Millsap, but Jefferson would do a lot for us, namely moving Al to the 4.

And who would be the better 4 . . . Horford or Millsap?

If the answer to that question would be Horford, then you have to assume that putting an elite offensive and rebounding talent like Jefferson at the 5, would DRAMATICALLY make the Hawks a better team.

And here's the main reason why it could. It would possibly eliminate the need to carry 2 scrub centers, and simply focus on backup PFs who bring different things to the table.

Here's an example of our current frontcourt rotation, if everyone is healthy: ( minutes played per game is in parenthesis )

PF - Millsap ( 35 ) - Scott ( 13 )

C - Horford ( 35 ) - Antić ( 13 )

Now let's do the same thing, and add Jefferson to the squad

PF - Horford ( 24 ) - Scott ( 12 ) - Antić ( 12 )

C - Jefferson ( 36 ) - Horford ( 12 )

Now you tell me, which rotation would be better for the Hawks?

Everybody knows that I wouldn't even bring Antić back in the first place, and bring in a veteran PF or C. But it's easier to find a decent veteran PF who can actually give you decent production, than it is to find a decent C who can do those things.

[Diesel]

Both Durant and Dwight have led their teams to the Finals...Jefferson has gone to the playoffs thrice.

Moreover all of those players have other hardware and awards that Jefferson is not in possession of so again, the comparison is useless.

See that's the problem Mace. It's not a comparison. It's a statement of fact. You say that Jefferson will never win... Neither will these other guys. You now say "It's about hardware and awards"... Really? Joe Johnson must be the king of everything then. he's still going to allstar games. (Sarcasm).

The point is that it takes a lot to get to the championship. The right Coach, the right talent, and really the right organization. Is it Kevin Love's fault that he ended up in Minny? Was it KG's fault that he ended up in Minny? Some places you go is just wasted talent. I don't know if that will hold true for Charlotte but it sure seems like it. Still, don't make Millsap out to be the better player because he landed in the better situation? That's the problem. Millsap landed with the better coach in a better environment (even though Jefferson's team won more games).

[Guest]

And who would be the better 4 . . . Horford or Millsap?

If the answer to that question would be Horford, then you have to assume that putting an elite offensive and rebounding talent like Jefferson at the 5, would DRAMATICALLY make the Hawks a better team.

And here's the main reason why it could. It would possibly eliminate the need to carry 2 scrub centers, and simply focus on backup PFs who bring different things to the table.

Here's an example of our current frontcourt rotation, if everyone is healthy: ( minutes played per game is in parenthesis )

PF - Millsap ( 35 ) - Scott ( 13 )

C - Horford ( 35 ) - Antić ( 13 )

Now let's do the same thing, and add Jefferson to the squad

PF - Horford ( 24 ) - Scott ( 12 ) - Antić ( 12 )

C - Jefferson ( 36 ) - Horford ( 12 )

Now you tell me, which rotation would be better for the Hawks?

Everybody knows that I wouldn't even bring Antić back in the first place, and bring in a veteran PF or C. But it's easier to find a decent veteran PF who can actually give you decent production, than it is to find a decent C who can do those things.

You assume Pero would have been signed if we signed Al at his 13.5 mil, we probably would have not been able to sign Brand either.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on Millsap vs Jefferson.

I'm still taking the Millsap/Horford versatility and athleticism over a Jefferson/Horford Combo:

Millsap

Averaged almost 18ppg and 9 rpg while shooting 46% on 14 fga in 33 mpg/5.3 free throw attempts at 73%/3.1apg/1.1bpg/1.7spg

Jefferson

Averaged almost 22 ppg and 11 rebs while shooting 51% FG on 18 fga in 35 mpg//3.8 free throw attempts at 69% /2.1apg/1.1bpg/0.9spg

[Guest]

I'm not trying to sell Millsap short. I was just trying to say the gap is close between the two.

That's ok if the gap is close - it's the premise that DF passing on Al in lieu of Millsap was some great miss in FAcy.

[MaceCase]

Oh wow. First off, I could've sworn I responded to this last night on my phone, but I guess I hit the wrong button or something.

Haha @ produce 21 million worth better than Millsap. Gotta love how you play with numbers like that, knowing full well that Millsap got a 9.5 million contract over 2 years compared to Jefferson's 13.5 million over 3 years ( with an option in Year 3 ). So let's see what the "value" of Al Jefferson was to the Bobcats this season

- Averaged almost 22 ppg and 11 rebs while shooting 51% FG

- Had a MONSTER 2nd half of the season ( 24+ ppg - 11+ rebs - 53% FG )

- Increased the Bobcats win total by a WHOPPING 22 games ( from 21 wins to 43 wins )

- Led the Bobcats to the playoffs for the 1st time in 5 years

- And will likely make at least 3rd team All-NBA when those teams are announced this week

Millsap is a very good player. A versatile player I'm happy to have him here. But he's no Al Jefferson. Jefferson is literally a guy who can function as the engine of a team at almost a superstar level. People think Jefferson was overpaid. No he wasn't. That guy is an ELITE low post scorer and an ELITE rebounder. And his defense ( especially in the pick and roll ) is vastly improved under the Bobcats/Hornets new coach Steve Clifford.

I sincerely thought that if it were Charlotte that drew Indiana in that 1st round, Charlotte would've beaten that team. They would've beaten them because the Pacers had absolutely no one who could stop Jefferson . . and Kidd-Gilchrist is a good enough defender to keep George from going completely off on him. Charlotte didn't have better overall offensive talent than we did, but they were a better defensive team than we were. And they had something that we didn't have . . a legit go-to scorer. And his name was Al Jefferson.

Playing with the numbers? Did Jefferson sign to a 3 year 40.5 million contract? Yes. Did Millsap sign to a 2 year 19 million contract? Yes. So who is playing with the numbers here? You who wants to pretend that he didn't or frame it that "Naw, I mean he did but....look it's like only 13.5 million......but multiply that by 3......except don't because....he did but I like to think that he didn't" or me who just puts it out there that "hey, this guy is signed to 21 more million, oh 8 more if he decides not to opt in but like 27 is still greater than 19....but that's like only if I round up and carry the 1 apparently". This is where I rolled my eyes.

Throw up Millsap's stat line up there too since we are being entirely comparative and don't forget to mention that he was the coaches pick to become an All Star. Is Jefferson overpaid? No. Did we get a comparable player for cheaper? Bet your f***ing ass we did.

Oh, and let's just give Jefferson all the credit for a team of 5 lotto picks finally improving. There's like no reason to believe that those guys contribute anything to an NBA team it's why a lot on here are so adamant about Ferry tanking himself. And yes, let's continue to perpetuate the myth that the Hawks or is it the Pacers just got lucky drawing each other. Yea, I love reading across every other fanbases' board (and a lot of yahoos on here too) that had their team only made the playoffs or dropped to the 8th seed that they'd have swept the Pacers. I mean Gortat and Nene (two players on a better team than Charlotte) only just exposed the DPOTY Noah in their first round matchup but were shutdown by the Pacers frontline but I'm sure they would not have had any answer for Al Jefferson. We'll just hold on to that belief because of that 1 game in March was it? We'll excuse the other 2 loses they had or Millsap's accomplishments in general because this is Al Jefferson appreciation month.

Edited May 27, 2014 by MaceCase

[MaceCase]

See that's the problem Mace. It's not a comparison. It's a statement of fact. You say that Jefferson will never win... Neither will these other guys. You now say "It's about hardware and awards"... Really? Joe Johnson must be the king of everything then. he's still going to allstar games. (Sarcasm).

The point is that it takes a lot to get to the championship. The right Coach, the right talent, and really the right organization. Is it Kevin Love's fault that he ended up in Minny? Was it KG's fault that he ended up in Minny? Some places you go is just wasted talent. I don't know if that will hold true for Charlotte but it sure seems like it. Still, don't make Millsap out to be the better player because he landed in the better situation? That's the problem. Millsap landed with the better coach in a better environment (even though Jefferson's team won more games).

No, it is a comparison and it's a statement of fact because all of their players but Love have gotten a lot closer than Jefferson Has. All of those players including Love are much better players than Jefferson is and they have the awards and selections to prove it, all acquired well before their 29th year too. You're trying to jump tiers with your comparisons and no, Jefferson is not even in the same tier as a Joe Johnson. He's in the same tier as a Paul Millsap but guess what, we got one for 21, 8, 4 million, or however you guys want to pretend, cheaper. Don't bull shit me with guys getting lucky either, they played for a number of years together and again didn't distinguish themselves from each other.