My problem with Ferry

[Diesel]

No, it is a comparison and it's a statement of fact because all of their players but Love have gotten a lot closer than Jefferson Has. All of those players including Love are much better players than Jefferson is and they have the awards and selections to prove it, all acquired well before their 29th year too. You're trying to jump tiers with your comparisons and no, Jefferson is not even in the same tier as a Joe Johnson. He's in the same tier as a Paul Millsap but guess what, we got one for 21, 8, 4 million, or however you guys want to pretend, cheaper. Don't bull shit me with guys getting lucky either, they played for a number of years together and again didn't distinguish themselves from each other.

So because Scott Williams have won more championships than Charles Barkley, Williams must be better than Barkley...

There's your logic.

[MaceCase]

So because Scott Williams have won more championships than Charles Barkley, Williams must be better than Barkley...

There's your logic.

No.......

there's your logic.

You're jumping through hoops trying to compare players on entirely different stratospheres again. Barkley didn't win a ring but he was the main component on multiple contenders, has multiple All everythings, a frickin MVP and HOF selection to show for his efforts. What does Jefferson have again?

You are so fascinated with your argument that a post game wins championships that you are willing to disregard that a championship has never been won with a primary player having zero all league selections to his name to speak nothing of the multiple selections that actual championship caliber players have. So again, the argument is less than useless.

[NBASupes]

Al is a much better player than Sap. The gap is quite wide. Similar gap between him and Sap as for Joe and Jamal. Joe was a much better player but you had fools who felt they were close.

[Diesel]

No.......

there's your logic.

You're jumping through hoops trying to compare players on entirely different stratospheres again. Barkley didn't win a ring but he was the main component on multiple contenders, has multiple All everythings, a frickin MVP and HOF selection to show for his efforts. What does Jefferson have again?

You are so fascinated with your argument that a post game wins championships that you are willing to disregard that a championship has never been won with a primary player having zero all league selections to his name to speak nothing of the multiple selections that actual championship caliber players have. So again, the argument is less than useless.

As I said, you can't penalize the man for the team that he has played on. It takes a lot to be in the championship position. Interestingly, Sap and Al played several years together for the same team... yet, you're trying to say Sap is better?

[Admin]

As I said, you can't penalize the man for the team that he has played on. It takes a lot to be in the championship position. Interestingly, Sap and Al played several years together for the same team... yet, you're trying to say Sap is better?

He said above that they're comparable players that we got for cheaper.

Throw up Millsap's stat line up there too since we are being entirely comparative and don't forget to mention that he was the coaches pick to become an All Star. Is Jefferson overpaid? No. Did we get a comparable player for cheaper? Bet your f***ing ass we did.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Playing with the numbers? Did Jefferson sign to a 3 year 40.5 million contract? Yes. Did Millsap sign to a 2 year 19 million contract? Yes. So who is playing with the numbers here? You who wants to pretend that he didn't or frame it that "Naw, I mean he did but....look it's like only 13.5 million......but multiply that by 3......except don't because....he did but I like to think that he didn't" or me who just puts it out there that "hey, this guy is signed to 21 more million, oh 8 more if he decides not to opt in but like 27 is still greater than 19....but that's like only if I round up and carry the 1 apparently". This is where I rolled my eyes.

Throw up Millsap's stat line up there too since we are being entirely comparative and don't forget to mention that he was the coaches pick to become an All Star. Is Jefferson overpaid? No. Did we get a comparable player for cheaper? Bet your f***ing ass we did.

Oh, and let's just give Jefferson all the credit for a team of 5 lotto picks finally improving. There's like no reason to believe that those guys contribute anything to an NBA team it's why a lot on here are so adamant about Ferry tanking himself. And yes, let's continue to perpetuate the myth that the Hawks or is it the Pacers just got lucky drawing each other. Yea, I love reading across every other fanbases' board (and a lot of yahoos on here too) that had their team only made the playoffs or dropped to the 8th seed that they'd have swept the Pacers. I mean Gortat and Nene (two players on a better team than Charlotte) only just exposed the DPOTY Noah in their first round matchup but were shutdown by the Pacers frontline but I'm sure they would not have had any answer for Al Jefferson. We'll just hold on to that belief because of that 1 game in March was it? We'll excuse the other 2 loses they had or Millsap's accomplishments in general because this is Al Jefferson appreciation month.

This is silliness. You asking did Jefferson produce 21 million more than Millsap, is like asking if Teague produced 31 million more than Mack, simply because Jeff got a 4 year deal at 8 million per .. while Mack was still on his 900K one year extension. See how silly that is?

No one in this fan base has a beef with Millsap. He was a deserving All-Star. Jefferson's snub came via adding guys like Bosh, Hibbert, and my boy Joe Johnson.

But adding Millsap to this team, when you could've added a legit scoring and rebounding center in Jefferson, was a flat out FAIL by our GM.

The difference between adding Jefferson over Millsap is this. If Horford goes down, you still have Jefferson to anchor the middle, and you don't have to play guys like Antić out of position for an extended period of time.

But with Millsap only being 6-8, the Hawks had to not only give Antić heavy minutes at center, they even had to play Millsap at times at center.

You and some of the others keep talking about the value of contracts, but seem to disregard what is the absolute best fit for the team. Adding a big center for Horford to play alongside, could've made him an even better all-around player. It may also keep him a little more healthy.

As for not giving Jefferson all of the credit, he can't take ALL of the credit. Maybe about 75% of it though. The Bobcats went from having a frontline that couldn't score at all, with Biyombo and Mullens ... to adding one of THE best scoring and rebounding centers in the league, who can also be a go-to scorer.

And they went from the league's worst defense, to 6th best, because Clifford forced his guards to fight through screens on the pick and roll, while Jefferson sagged back and prevented the guards from getting to the rim. Jefferson's size was a roadblock in the paint for those small guards. He finally had a coach who could maximize his worth on defense. And because he is an ELITE defensive rebounder, it made the Cats defense that much tougher.

So yeah, that 22 game jump in the standings was mainly because of his presence on the team.

When Horford starts crying once again about not having a decent center to play with ... blame the GM.

Edited May 28, 2014 by TheNorthCydeRises

[MaceCase]

This is silliness. You asking did Jefferson produce 21 million more than Millsap, is like asking if Teague produced 31 million more than Mack, simply because Jeff got a 4 year deal at 8 million per .. while Mack was still on his 900K one year extension. See how silly that is?

No one in this fan base has a beef with Millsap. He was a deserving All-Star. Jefferson's snub came via adding guys like Bosh, Hibbert, and my boy Joe Johnson.

But adding Millsap to this team, when you could've added a legit scoring and rebounding center in Jefferson, was a flat out FAIL by our GM.

The difference between adding Jefferson over Millsap is this. If Horford goes down, you still have Jefferson to anchor the middle, and you don't have to play guys like Antić out of position for an extended period of time.

But with Millsap only being 6-8, the Hawks had to not only give Antić heavy minutes at center, they even had to play Millsap at times at center.

You and some of the others keep talking about the value of contracts, but seem to disregard what is the absolute best fit for the team. Adding a big center for Horford to play alongside, could've made him an even better all-around player. It may also keep him a little more healthy.

As for not giving Jefferson all of the credit, he can't take ALL of the credit. Maybe about 75% of it though. The Bobcats went from having a frontline that couldn't score at all, with Biyombo and Mullens ... to adding one of THE best scoring and rebounding centers in the league, who can also be a go-to scorer.

And they went from the league's worst defense, to 6th best, because Clifford forced his guards to fight through screens on the pick and roll, while Jefferson sagged back and prevented the guards from getting to the rim. Jefferson's size was a roadblock in the paint for those small guards. He finally had a coach who could maximize his worth on defense. And because he is an ELITE defensive rebounder, it made the Cats defense that much tougher.

So yeah, that 22 game jump in the standings was mainly because of his presence on the team.

When Horford starts crying once again about not having a decent center to play with ... blame the GM.

ICYMI a decent stretch of the season many on this board were seriously asking what Jeffrey brought to the team over Mack. They both regressed to the mean over the course of a full season though so questions on that were abated. It doesn't matter, both did not have the same profile coming into their new contracts so again, this is yet another lame attempt at comparing players over different tiers in order to obfuscate the debate on players in the same tier.

Adding an All Star versatile big that can check multiple boxes on both sides of the ball is not a fail. It's rather insane to even suggest that while lying that "there's no beef". There are no facts to substantiate Al at the 4 being better than he is at C besides his bitching. There are no facts to back up his injuries being due to him playing center. The man himself mentioned the underlying reasons behind his injuries. Having a player with a higher usage than any player he's ever played with occupying the same block that he's supposed to be theoretically posting up smaller players does not lend to him performing better at PF either.

You seem to forget that Antić was the 4th string center to start the season. Him being forced to start were due to all of Al going down, Ayón going down and Brand's advanced age. Your scenario doesn't make sense at all, imagine instead that Al and Scott goes down leaving, guess who, Pero having to start at PF for half the season.

Again, I posted this elsewhere but can someone explain to me why exactly Jefferson, a career turnstile on the defensive end, is getting "75%" of the credit for the Bobcats defensive turnaround but then there are crickets as to why they were 24th on offense.....his calling card. The logic isn't adding up, did he flip the script on his game? In that case why are we lauding the offense then? How come his post dominance didn't show up in the team stats? Yea, that's because you're overrating the hell out of him while straight disrespect our warrior in #4.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

ICYMI a decent stretch of the season many on this board were seriously asking what Jeffrey brought to the team over Mack. They both regressed to the mean over the course of a full season though so questions on that were abated. It doesn't matter, both did not have the same profile coming into their new contracts so again, this is yet another lame attempt at comparing players over different tiers in order to obfuscate the debate on players in the same tier.

Adding an All Star versatile big that can check multiple boxes on both sides of the ball is not a fail. It's rather insane to even suggest that while lying that "there's no beef". There are no facts to substantiate Al at the 4 being better than he is at C besides his bitching. There are no facts to back up his injuries being due to him playing center. The man himself mentioned the underlying reasons behind his injuries. Having a player with a higher usage than any player he's ever played with occupying the same block that he's supposed to be theoretically posting up smaller players does not lend to him performing better at PF either.

You seem to forget that Antić was the 4th string center to start the season. Him being forced to start were due to all of Al going down, Ayón going down and Brand's advanced age. Your scenario doesn't make sense at all, imagine instead that Al and Scott goes down leaving, guess who, Pero having to start at PF for half the season.

Again, I posted this elsewhere but can someone explain to me why exactly Jefferson, a career turnstile on the defensive end, is getting "75%" of the credit for the Bobcats defensive turnaround but then there are crickets as to why they were 24th on offense.....his calling card. The logic isn't adding up, did he flip the script on his game? In that case why are we lauding the offense then? How come his post dominance didn't show up in the team stats? Yea, that's because you're overrating the hell out of him while straight disrespect our warrior in #4.

Jefferson didn't flip anything. You say that I'm overrating the hell out of him. I say that you and others have always underrated the hell out of him. Everyone knows that his weakness as a defensive player, was with the pick and roll. What those people don't realize, ( or flat out refuse to acknowledge ), is that there are other aspects to playing defense.

Jefferson has NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER been a bad post defender. And the #1 defensive play that he's always been involved in, comes as a post defender. LOL @ a career turnstyle. The dude has pretty much limited his man to sub 50% shooting in the past 3 years. Jefferson simply was exposed when put in pick and roll situations. That was his turnstyle. But that only occurred on about 20% of his defensive plays.

But look what he did in 2 of the 3 top defensive play types he was involved in this year in Charlotte.

2014 defense in Post Up situations: 0.73 ppp - ranked 44th - 36.6% FG

2014 defense in PnR Man situations: 0.72 ppp - ranked 13th - 30.9% FG

The first stat has always held true. Not too many people abuse Jefferson down on the block. The dude is a wide body to get around and he plays his defensive position well in post up situations.

The second stat is a result of what happens when a coach who actually knows how to defend the pick and roll, can put his players in the best situation possible. You don't have a slow 6-10 . . 280 lbs guy trying to go to the high side of the pick and roll and try to stop a quick PG 20 feet from going to the basket. You force your own PG to fight through that pick, cover the high side, and let Jefferson be the wall between the ball handler and the basket.

As for the Bobcat Offense, they went from 28th in the league and a 101.5 rating wtihout Jefferson . . to 24th in the league and a 103.6 rating. ( basketball-reference ) Jefferson himself posted a 105 rating. See . . the silliness of your posts, is that you don't even do adequate research to even back up your assertions. Don't worry though, I'll do it to back up mine.

- Charlotte frontcourt offense in 2012 - 13:

40.3 points - 30.8 rebs - 43% FG - 56.7 NBA Efficiiency Rtg - ( -22 Efficiency Differential ) . . LAST IN THE LEAGUE

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/13/3/diffeff/1-1

- Charlotte frontcourt offense in 2013 - 14:

53.1 points - 31.9 rebs - 47% FG - 68.4 NBA Efficiency Rtg - ( 0.7 Effiency Differential ) . . 14th in the league

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/14/3/diffeff/1-1

And keep in mind that the NBA Efficiency rating is almost a pure production type of stat. So the guys who produce are going to look better, than the guys who don't. What the Efficiency Differential shows, is if a particular man or group is getting out produced. The Charlotte frontline in 2012 - 13 was an absolute joke. The Charlotte frontline in 2013 - 14, became at least an average unit. And most of the reason for that was because they obtained an ELITE post scorer in Jefferson, who also became a damn good overall team defender in the middle . . while also gobbling up a ton of defensive rebounds.

The Bobcat defense went from a ridiculous 111.5 rating ( last in the league ) without Jefferson . . to 5th ( not 6th, but 5th ) in the league, with a 103.8 rating. Jefferson's defensive rating? 100. The last part of playing defense, is grabbing the defensive rebound to end the possession. And guess who was 5th in the league in defensive rebounding? Yep.

Now let's go to Antić. 4th string center? You sure?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201311070DEN.html

That's the 6th game of the season. The only guy out of the lineup is Ayón ( the guy that is supposedly playing in front of Antić ). But when you look at those first 10 games, Bud is not only playing Antić, he's giving him decent minutes . . sometimes over Brand and/or Scott. Antić is a dude that Bud basically hand-picked to be on this team. He was always going to get a chance to play and crack the rotation. He got his minutes cut when he was playing like a dog and Bud gave Ayón a chance to get some of his minutes. But initially, Antić was splitting time at the backup PF with Mike Scott, a guy who most Hawk fans didn't even think would make the team after Summer League.

Now let's go to Millsap. Like I said, there's no beef with him. But all our GM did was replace our defensive minded, schizophrenic PF ( Josh Smith ), with a vast upgrade offensively in Paul Millsap. Problem is, that move still doesn't adequately solve our rebounding issues or the fact that we're still trying to play essentially 2 PFs in the lineup at the same damn time.

The "facts" on Horford as a PF, is that he can play the position at a high level. And that was with playing alongside guys like Zaza and Jason Collins. So what kind of effect would his game undergo, if you put one of the best low post scorers in the game with him? How much better could those guys make each other? We'll never know though. The GM will continue to add scrub big men to this lineup, and force Horford to be "the man in the middle".

We'll see in 2 years if he's still cool with that. We might even see rumblings of it again by the start of next season.

[MaceCase]

Jefferson didn't flip anything. You say that I'm overrating the hell out of him. I say that you and others have always underrated the hell out of him. Everyone knows that his weakness as a defensive player, was with the pick and roll. What those people don't realize, ( or flat out refuse to acknowledge ), is that there are other aspects to playing defense.

Jefferson has NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER been a bad post defender. And the #1 defensive play that he's always been involved in, comes as a post defender. LOL @ a career turnstyle. The dude has pretty much limited his man to sub 50% shooting in the past 3 years. Jefferson simply was exposed when put in pick and roll situations. That was his turnstyle. But that only occurred on about 20% of his defensive plays.

But look what he did in 2 of the 3 top defensive play types he was involved in this year in Charlotte.

2014 defense in Post Up situations: 0.73 ppp - ranked 44th - 36.6% FG

2014 defense in PnR Man situations: 0.72 ppp - ranked 13th - 30.9% FG

The first stat has always held true. Not too many people abuse Jefferson down on the block. The dude is a wide body to get around and he plays his defensive position well in post up situations.

The second stat is a result of what happens when a coach who actually knows how to defend the pick and roll, can put his players in the best situation possible. You don't have a slow 6-10 . . 280 lbs guy trying to go to the high side of the pick and roll and try to stop a quick PG 20 feet from going to the basket. You force your own PG to fight through that pick, cover the high side, and let Jefferson be the wall between the ball handler and the basket.

If you are going to post his defensive metrics then post all of it especially if you are going to make the argument that it's aggregate. Ranking 44th is not impressive for a starting Center, if Synergy doesn't control for sample then you need to rely less heavily upon it. I don't see how Steve Clifford discovered something that Doc Rivers, Randy Whitman and Jerry Sloan couldn't figure out about defense but even then you are giving credit to the Guards in this instance.

As for the Bobcat Offense, they went from 28th in the league and a 101.5 rating wtihout Jefferson . . to 24th in the league and a 103.6 rating. ( basketball-reference ) Jefferson himself posted a 105 rating. See . . the silliness of your posts, is that you don't even do adequate research to even back up your assertions. Don't worry though, I'll do it to back up mine.

- Charlotte frontcourt offense in 2012 - 13:

40.3 points - 30.8 rebs - 43% FG - 56.7 NBA Efficiiency Rtg - ( -22 Efficiency Differential ) . . LAST IN THE LEAGUE

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/13/3/diffeff/1-1

- Charlotte frontcourt offense in 2013 - 14:

53.1 points - 31.9 rebs - 47% FG - 68.4 NBA Efficiency Rtg - ( 0.7 Effiency Differential ) . . 14th in the league

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/14/3/diffeff/1-1

And keep in mind that the NBA Efficiency rating is almost a pure production type of stat. So the guys who produce are going to look better, than the guys who don't. What the Efficiency Differential shows, is if a particular man or group is getting out produced. The Charlotte frontline in 2012 - 13 was an absolute joke. The Charlotte frontline in 2013 - 14, became at least an average unit. And most of the reason for that was because they obtained an ELITE post scorer in Jefferson, who also became a damn good overall team defender in the middle . . while also gobbling up a ton of defensive rebounds.

The Bobcat defense went from a ridiculous 111.5 rating ( last in the league ) without Jefferson . . to 5th ( not 6th, but 5th ) in the league, with a 103.8 rating. Jefferson's defensive rating? 100. The last part of playing defense, is grabbing the defensive rebound to end the possession. And guess who was 5th in the league in defensive rebounding? Yep.

The silliness here is.........you want to give him credit for a 25 jump in defense.....but you're not even batting an eye and trying to walk past an only 4 spot jump on offense....while claiming ELITE. Your own lack of research didn't bother to tell you that a 105 individual ORTG is average at best.......not ELITE. So I'll ask this again, why is an ELITE offensive player only responsible for 4 spot jump in offense but is getting entire tomes written about his defensive contributions? The answer is: he's not ELITE.

Now let's go to Antić. 4th string center? You sure?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201311070DEN.html

That's the 6th game of the season. The only guy out of the lineup is Ayón ( the guy that is supposedly playing in front of Antić ). But when you look at those first 10 games, Bud is not only playing Antić, he's giving him decent minutes . . sometimes over Brand and/or Scott. Antić is a dude that Bud basically hand-picked to be on this team. He was always going to get a chance to play and crack the rotation. He got his minutes cut when he was playing like a dog and Bud gave Ayón a chance to get some of his minutes. But initially, Antić was splitting time at the backup PF with Mike Scott, a guy who most Hawk fans didn't even think would make the team after Summer League.

Uhm, yes I'm sure he was the 4th string Center. Ayón injured his shoulder before the season started and I highly doubt that Bud had any intention of playing Elton major minutes so early into the season at his age so uhm, you reached hard on this one. Fans weren't worried about Scott deserving to make the team either, they were nervous about the lack of communication from the front office over whether his 2nd year was guaranteed.

Now let's go to Millsap. Like I said, there's no beef with him. But all our GM did was replace our defensive minded, schizophrenic PF ( Josh Smith ), with a vast upgrade offensively in Paul Millsap. Problem is, that move still doesn't adequately solve our rebounding issues or the fact that we're still trying to play essentially 2 PFs in the lineup at the same damn time.

This is it on Millsap, there's no beef but you can write a bible on Jefferson and the Bobcats but in this entire thread where I've very clearly gone on to make the comparison all we've gotten is maybe a sentence short of a paragraph on Millsap. We now know where you disappear to during the season. You challenged my statements but it was to stroke your Jefferson ego rather than address the original statements that:

A) You don't win championships without stars.

B) There is no evidence that Ferry doesn't value stars.

C) There is evidence that Ferry will not overpay for players who are not stars.

And you and Diesel are trying to make the argument that......Jefferson is a star now? A championship caliber player? Oh wait, you'll tap out at just 50 wins.

The "facts" on Horford as a PF, is that he can play the position at a high level. And that was with playing alongside guys like Zaza and Jason Collins. So what kind of effect would his game undergo, if you put one of the best low post scorers in the game with him? How much better could those guys make each other? We'll never know though. The GM will continue to add scrub big men to this lineup, and force Horford to be "the man in the middle".

We'll see in 2 years if he's still cool with that. We might even see rumblings of it again by the start of next season.

The facts on Horford are that he plays at a lower level at PF than he does C. You can wax poetic over what perceived changes you believe would occur (while entirely ignoring my entirely plausible tactical issues that I brought up with him playing with a black hole in the paint) but the facts are that he was in the midst of a career year 1/3rd into the season playing next to, you guess it, a PF who wasn't a black hole on offense. We not only got an upgrade on Josh but we were witnessing an upgrade in Al before he went down to an injury that had nothing to do with him playing Center. If he's gone in 2 years.......who the f*** cares, he'll do it for the best interests of himself not the team.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

SMH more silliness.

I post facts to back up my analysis and you continue with your silly notions about how he's not that impactful ... yet, admit that he's not overpaid. Talk about a contradiction.

Ask Bobcat/Hornet fans just how good he was on both sides of the ball. He literally carried that team offensively at times. Simple deductive reasoning would tell you that if the front court improved by adding Jefferson, maybe the backcourt regressed a little. Kemba scored more, but only shot 40%. Gerald Henderson wasn't as good as last year.

Could THAT be the reason why the Cats offense only became slightly better overall? Nope. Must be something else in your eyes.

A) You don't win championships without stars - TRUE

B) No evidence the GM doesn't value stars. - Tell me when he goes all out to get a star

C) No evidence that the GM will not overpay for players who aren't stars - Well that's obvious, seeing that his first signing last summer was Kyle Korver. He over pays for role players, not stars.

If you agree that at 13.5 million a year that Jefferson isnt overpaid, then YOU believe that Jefferson is a star.

Just a lot of silliness from you in this thread. Just arguing just for the sake of arguing.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

You assume Pero would have been signed if we signed Al at his 13.5 mil, we probably would have not been able to sign Brand either.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on Millsap vs Jefferson.

I'm still taking the Millsap/Horford versatility and athleticism over a Jefferson/Horford Combo:

Millsap

Averaged almost 18ppg and 9 rpg while shooting 46% on 14 fga in 33 mpg/5.3 free throw attempts at 73%/3.1apg/1.1bpg/1.7spg

Jefferson

Averaged almost 22 ppg and 11 rebs while shooting 51% FG on 18 fga in 35 mpg//3.8 free throw attempts at 69% /2.1apg/1.1bpg/0.9spg

JayBird ... I would've never have signed Pero in the first place. I would've re-signed Ivan and added a vet backup like Samuel Dalembert. I could sign both of them around the same price the GM signed Pero and Brand ( which was a little over 5 million ).

So my front court rotation would've looked like this:

PF - Horford ( 32 ) - Ivan ( 16 )

C - Jefferson ( 32 ) - Dalembert ( 16 )

Ivan represents the high energy PF off the bench. Dalembert represents the shot blocking/offensive rebounding C. No room for Mike "MF" Scott in the rotation, unless he out plays Ivan for playing time.

I could personally care less if our center could shoot a 3 pointer at a 30% rate and at a 12% rate in the playoffs. Give me big people who actually play like big people. Or gave Horford try to expand his range a little, but not just gun away from out there.