Merged: DMC Snubbed for All Defensive Teams

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1st and 2nd all defensive teams were announced and there was no DMC.

He was snubbed. They had Butler ahead of DMC.

But reading, I see that DMCthealltime great would have still be behind guys like Oladipo, Curry, Hinrich, Westbrook, Stephenson and many more.

My question is what are these guys looking at?? They must not see that DMC is a stopper.

I can't be too mad though... DeAndre Jordan and Tony Allen were snubbed too.

No matter how much he's snubbed, he's still working:

His individual defensive numbers are not great, to say the least. In fact, you could argue that he was kind of bad in the first 1/3 of the season. He got much better as the season progressed though.

The real quesiton is . . . what person in the Atlanta media voted Jeff Teague to either 1st team All-Defense, or gave him two votes to the 2nd team?

[DrReality]

I see Milsap and Teague got votes

Bring back Al and the team is more comfortable with the defensive scheme and we will be ready to take a step forward playing D.

[Admin]

Does your stat take into consideration PACE? Sorry but DeAndre = More rebounds and Blocks than Noah. Those two stats effect the game alot from a defensive standpoint. It's 1 more BPG than Noah. Hibbert is a joke too.

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDefense.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=50&sortField=FGA_DEFEND_RIM&sortOrder=DES&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&filters=GP*G*50**FGA_DEFEND_RIM*G*3

Can't do the screenshot thing but at the rim defense belongs to Jordan in a major way.

Offensive Rating and Defensive Rating are per 100 possessions so they're more accurate than any pace adjusted stat.

And why are you saying sorry? I said Jordan deserved 1st team and Noah should have been 2nd team. But an argument can certainly be made for Noah being 1st team. Blocks and rebounds are important but they aren't everything. There's probably not a better C in the league at locking down the paint than Noah and he's very important to the Bulls team defense concept.

Look at PER 36 minutes and advanced stats. Each player has areas they win and lose so it's really a toss up.

[High5]

Does your stat take into consideration PACE? Sorry but DeAndre = More rebounds and Blocks than Noah. Those two stats effect the game alot from a defensive standpoint. It's 1 more BPG than Noah. Hibbert is a joke too.

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDefense.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=50&sortField=FGA_DEFEND_RIM&sortOrder=DES&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&filters=GP*G*50**FGA_DEFEND_RIM*G*3

Can't do the screenshot thing but at the rim defense belongs to Jordan in a major way.

Wouldn't pace favor Jordan since the Clippers play so much faster than the Bulls? And your link shows Noah allowed 46.8% at the rim compared to Jordan's 49.4%. Am I missing something?

[Diesel]

Wouldn't pace favor Jordan since the Clippers play so much faster than the Bulls? And your link shows Noah allowed 46.8% at the rim compared to Jordan's 49.4%. Am I missing something?

My point with the rim protection is that Jordan plays more of his defense at the rim. Noah's defense is away from the rim where there are lower percentage shots. Noah's defense is more about a scheme that involves Taj Gibson and the rest of the Bulls. Jordan is a guy who plays on an island at the rim.

IMO the DPOY should have gone this way:

1. Jordan

2. Ibaka

3. Allen

4. Noah

[AHF]

I definitely take Noah over Jordan if I am starting a defense. Jordan is all about the paint because he isn't capable of doing more. Noah can defend very effectively at the rim and has the quickness to go guard people away from the rim as well. Noah is a stud defensively. Jordan is a flawed defender who is the best in the game in aspects of D but is not very good in other areas. Noah is good at everything defensively and holds players to a lower % near the rim as well.

Noah makes that scheme in Chicago possible. If you put Jordan on Chicago's roster they would have to change their D to allow Jordan to camp near the goal so they don't expose him to having to guard people in other areas of the floor. Conversely, the LAC would have the ability to run a lot of D they can't now due to Jordan's limitations.

Both are very good pieces but I take Noah over Jordan without thinking twice for last season.

**************

Oh, and votes for Curry and especially Harden are worthy of revoking someone's voting rights. Offensive players always get an unwarranted boost in any voting situation.

[Dnice]

If anyone's interested, here's a closer look on the voting.

http://mediacentral.nba.com/media/mediacentral/060214-2013-14-All-Defensive-Team-Votes.pdf

[AHF]

If anyone's interested, here's a closer look on the voting.

http://mediacentral.nba.com/media/mediacentral/060214-2013-14-All-Defensive-Team-Votes.pdf

Good info but painful to look at.

[Diesel]

I definitely take Noah over Jordan if I am starting a defense. Jordan is all about the paint because he isn't capable of doing more. Noah can defend very effectively at the rim and has the quickness to go guard people away from the rim as well. Noah is a stud defensively. Jordan is a flawed defender who is the best in the game in aspects of D but is not very good in other areas. Noah is good at everything defensively and holds players to a lower % near the rim as well.

Noah makes that scheme in Chicago possible. If you put Jordan on Chicago's roster they would have to change their D to allow Jordan to camp near the goal so they don't expose him to having to guard people in other areas of the floor. Conversely, the LAC would have the ability to run a lot of D they can't now due to Jordan's limitations.

Both are very good pieces but I take Noah over Jordan without thinking twice for last season.

**************

Oh, and votes for Curry and especially Harden are worthy of revoking someone's voting rights. Offensive players always get an unwarranted boost in any voting situation.

Just because Jordan is not picking up people at the top of the key doesn't mean that he's in any way less of a defender. Jordan not only blocks 1.0 more shots per game than Noah, he also rebounds better. Guys like Jordan and Ibaka are more in the mold of Mutombo who can block shots and rebounds and cause problems with their interior defense. Guys like Noah are defensive in the mold of Alonzo. Sure they look good but when compared to interior defenders they don't stack up.

[Dnice]

@AHF, yeah I didn't get to far, lol

[Admin]

Just because Jordan is not picking up people at the top of the key doesn't mean that he's in any way less of a defender. Jordan not only blocks 1.0 more shots per game than Noah, he also rebounds better. Guys like Jordan and Ibaka are more in the mold of Mutombo who can block shots and rebounds and cause problems with their interior defense. Guys like Noah are defensive in the mold of Alonzo. Sure they look good but when compared to interior defenders they don't stack up.

You think that maybe, just maybe, Jordan gets more blocks and rebounds because he's always in the paint whereas Noah has to roam out to the perimeter and check guards coming off of picks?

[Admin]

If anyone's interested, here's a closer look on the voting.

http://mediacentral.nba.com/media/mediacentral/060214-2013-14-All-Defensive-Team-Votes.pdf

Whoa wait a second here. You're telling me that Chris Vivnomore doesn't have a vote in this thing? It can't be.

And the guy who voted for Harden works for ESPN radio so no shock there that he hasn't actually seen Harden not play defense.

[capstone21]

Ibaka is like Theo Ratliff....really good help defender. He isn't a great one on one defender

[Diesel]

If anyone's interested, here's a closer look on the voting.

http://mediacentral.nba.com/media/mediacentral/060214-2013-14-All-Defensive-Team-Votes.pdf

Respect for Dominique and Holman for holding down DMC and Sap.

However, good look for Dei Lynam who put a Teague vote out there.

Alrighty Teague!!!

OK, this guy sucks...

Ric Bucher, Bleacher Report

George, Paul -- IND

Ibaka, Serge -- OKC

Noah, Joakim -- CHI

Beverley, Patrick -- HOU

Allen, Tony -- MEM

James, LeBron -- MIA

Tucker, P.J. -- PHO

Bogut, Andrew -- GS

Thompson, Klay -- GS

[AHF]

Jordan's opponents averaged a 19.6 PER on .515 efg% on 17.4 FGA/48. Opponents averaged 14.8 rp48 and 21.8 pp48.

Noah's opponents averaged a 16.7 PER on .494 efg% on 14.0 FGA/48. Opponents averaged 13.5 rp48 and 16.5 pp48.

So Noah's opponents generated less production, fewer rebounds, fewer points and scored at a lower efg%. How is this a bad thing for Noah? Shouldn't both lowering the number of shots taken by opponents and the opponent's conversion of those shots be the most important part of defense?

[Diesel]

You think that maybe, just maybe, Jordan gets more blocks and rebounds because he's always in the paint whereas Noah has to roam out to the perimeter and check guards coming off of picks?

Yes. I do. I don't think Chris Paul needs his help on the perimeter. It seems like you're saying that he should be penalized for following his coaches defensive scheme. When all he did was become the best INTERIOR defender behind Ibaka and anchor of his team's defense. Noah gets credit for going out on the perimeter and picking up guards and deflecting their shots. BIG Whoop. He's always going to guard the smaller man. Their defensive scheme makes it necessary for him to have a Taj Gibson behind him actually doing the tough work.

[Admin]

Yes. I do. I don't think Chris Paul needs his help on the perimeter. It seems like you're saying that he should be penalized for following his coaches defensive scheme. When all he did was become the best INTERIOR defender behind Ibaka and anchor of his team's defense. Noah gets credit for going out on the perimeter and picking up guards and deflecting their shots. BIG Whoop. He's always going to guard the smaller man. Their defensive scheme makes it necessary for him to have a Taj Gibson behind him actually doing the tough work.

I'm not saying he should be penalized. I'm saying Noah should be rewarded for being able to do far more things than Jordan can do and he does them better. And that's just silly acting like the scheme is what makes Noah so good when the truth is as @AHF posted it's Noah who makes the scheme work.

[Diesel]

Jordan's opponents averaged a 19.6 PER on .515 efg% on 17.4 FGA/48. Opponents averaged 14.8 rp48 and 21.8 pp48.

Noah's opponents averaged a 16.7 PER on .494 efg% on 14.0 FGA/48. Opponents averaged 13.5 rp48 and 16.5 pp48.

So Noah's opponents generated less production, fewer rebounds, fewer points and scored at a lower efg%. How is this a bad thing for Noah? Shouldn't both lowering the number of shots taken by opponents and the opponent's conversion of those shots be the most important part of defense?

You mean those guards that Noah guards? Watch Noah actually play, he's not pinning down the other team's bigs and giving them a hard time. He's high post, catching the other team's guards and funneling them to Gibson. If they don't follow the funnel, they have to shoot a lower percentage shot over Noah...

That's a different position than what Jordan does on the Island. ON the Island, Jordan meets the other team's low post scorer and his job is to stop them.

It's the difference between a guy asked to be a rim protector and a guy who is part of a machine.

[AHF]

Jordan isn't capable of being part of a machine like the scheme in Chicago. He doesn't have the mobility or versatility to do that. He is still a valuable player but it limits what you can do with the defense.

Even your own stats show, however, that just looking at the interior shots shows that Noah is better against those interior shots than Jordan even with all the blocks Jordan gets near the rim taken into consideration.

[Diesel]

Jordan isn't capable of being part of a machine like the scheme in Chicago. He doesn't have the mobility or versatility to do that. He is still a valuable player but it limits what you can do with the defense.

Even your own stats show, however, that just looking at the interior shots shows that Noah is better against those interior shots than Jordan even with all the blocks Jordan gets near the rim taken into consideration.

If Jordan were in Chicago's System, he would play where Taj Gibson and Boozer plays and he would DOMINATE!!!

However, if Noah was in Jordan's shoes playing in LAC, I don't see him dominating. Wouldn't get too many Guards to push around.

Also, when Noah follows Guards and fowards to the rim, don't you expect his FG% for them to be lower? They are guards and Fowards. What does he do against real Centers?

Edited June 3, 2014 by Diesel