From a team point of view... Teague = Better than Westbrook.

[willthepureshooter]

Apparently you ignored the many issues with Teague last season. Hanging you hat on a flawed stat that puts Kemba Walker over Ty Lawson, Tony Parker and Mike Conley isn't going to do it.

Teague turns the ball over more than most PGs. He turns the ball over like an elite scorer or a sub-par PG. By way of comparison, his A/TO ratio was actually worse than Lou Williams.

Chris Paul Jose Calderon Andre Miller Ricky Rubio Shelvin Mack Kyle Lowry Devin Harris Steve Blake Mike Conley George Hill Jameer Nelson Brandon Jennings Deron Williams Ty Lawson Kemba Walker Tony Parker Jrue Holiday Greivis Vasquez D.J. Augustin Beno Udrih John Wall Derek Fisher Kirk Hinrich Damian Lillard Patrick Mills Shaun Livingston Ramon Sessions Patrick Beverley Louis Williams Kyrie Irving Jeff Teague

He shot the ball worse than most PGs. Here are his peers in TS% last season:

Nate Robinson, Derek Fisher, Jeff Teague, Ramon Sessions, Grievez Vazquez

Stephen Curry Goran Dragic Jose Calderon Patrick Mills Chris Paul Eric Bledsoe Jimmer Fredette Darren Collison Isaiah Thomas Jeremy Lin D.J. Augustin Damian Lillard Kyle Lowry Mario Chalmers Deron Williams George Hill C.J. Watson Tony Parker Ty Lawson Tim Hardaway Shaun Livingston Louis Williams Russell Westbrook Patrick Beverley Mike Conley Nate Robinson Derek Fisher Jeff Teague Ramon Sessions Greivis Vasquez

You can keep going with all this stuff.

WS/48:

Chris Paul Stephen Curry Kyle Lowry Goran Dragic Russell Westbrook Manu Ginobili Patrick Mills Mike Conley Damian Lillard George Hill D.J. Augustin Isaiah Thomas Tony Parker Eric Bledsoe Ty Lawson Darren Collison C.J. Watson John Wall Kyrie Irving Deron Williams Jose Calderon C.J. Miles Patrick Beverley Andre Miller Shaun Livingston Ricky Rubio Mario Chalmers Reggie Jackson Derek Fisher Jeremy Lin Nate Robinson Jeff Teague Greivis Vasquez

PER:

Chris Paul Russell Westbrook Stephen Curry Goran Dragic Isaiah Thomas Kyle Lowry Kyrie Irving Mike Conley Eric Bledsoe John Wall Ty Lawson Tony Parker Patrick Mills Damian Lillard Tyreke Evans Deron Williams Jeff Teague

Rebounds per 36:

Russell Westbrook Eric Bledsoe Thabo Sefolosha Reggie Jackson Andre Miller Ricky Rubio Kyle Lowry Jrue Holiday Shaun Livingston Chris Paul J.R. Smith Stephen Curry Kemba Walker George Hill John Wall Patrick Mills Patrick Beverley Shelvin Mack Brandon Knight Jameer Nelson Steve Blake Kyrie Irving Devin Harris Jimmer Fredette Leandro Barbosa Ty Lawson Damian Lillard Monta Ellis Jordan Crawford Greivis Vasquez Mario Chalmers Nate Robinson Goran Dragic Darren Collison Ramon Sessions Jeremy Lin Beno Udrih Kirk Hinrich Brandon Jennings Aaron Brooks Mike Conley Louis Williams Derek Fisher Isaiah Thomas C.J. Watson Mo Williams Deron Williams Jeff Teague

To try to prove a point you went to advance stats that literally places a player like Deron Williams over Teague..? Hahahahahaha!!!

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[AHF]

You realize that post was a mix of traditional and advanced metrics, right, or have turnovers, rebounds, shooting, etc. become "advanced stats"?

Ask yourself why the advanced metric based on per minute production placed Teague right below Williams and you can see some of the flaws in Teague's 2013-14 season:

Deron

.450 FG%

Teague

.438 FG%

Deron

.366 3pt%

Teague

.329 3pt%

Deron

2.76 A/TO ratio

Teague

2.27 A/TO ratio

Deron

1.6 steals/36

Teague

1.3 steals/36

Deron

112 ORTG

Teague

106 ORTG

(same defensive rating, rebounds and blocks)

Now you can laugh at Deron's pathetic season and then scratch that bird hair over why so many of his numbers are better than Teague's from last year.

[IBelieveInFerry]

I would say he picked it up in the 3rd trimester of the season.

By Month GP MIN FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% OR DR REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS October 1 34.0 7.0-13.0 .538 1.0-4.0 .250 9.0-12.0 .750 0.0 2.0 2.0 9.0 0.0 4.0 3.0 6.0 24.0 November 17 32.9 5.6-14.0 .399 0.5-2.4 .195 5.2-6.4 .817 0.6 2.2 2.8 8.1 0.2 1.2 2.0 3.2 16.9 December 14 34.4 6.1-13.6 .450 1.1-2.9 .400 3.2-3.9 .833 0.6 2.4 3.0 8.3 0.1 1.2 2.3 3.4 16.6 January 11 29.2 4.7-12.6 .374 0.5-2.7 .167 3.7-4.4 .854 0.5 1.9 2.4 4.6 0.2 1.2 2.1 3.2 13.6 February 11 31.7 5.8-13.0 .448 0.7-1.9 .381 3.6-4.1 .889 0.4 1.5 1.9 5.8 0.3 0.8 1.9 2.5 16.0 March 16 32.1 5.9-12.9 .456 1.1-2.9 .383 3.7-4.3 .868 0.3 2.8 3.1 6.2 0.3 0.9 1.8 2.8 16.6 April 9 31.3 6.4-12.2 .527 2.0-4.7 .429 3.9-4.4 .875 0.1 2.0 2.1 5.8 0.2 1.2 1.8 2.0

18.8

Splits tell a story... The story shares that there was a learning curve with this new offense and while he was learning, he lost the lead scorer.

So he had to learn the offense and become more of a scorer at the same time. His freaking april.. although not what you want in passing is about 19 points at 53% FG%, 43% from 3. Even Tony Parker looks at that and says DAMN.

He continued that in the playoffs.

BTW... Here's his split against Indy in the reg season:

vs. Indiana 4 31.5 5.3-11.8 .447 0.8-3.0 .250 3.0-3.3 .923 0.0 2.8 2.8 4.3 0.3 0.5 1.8 3.0 14.3

Do I need to remind you what happened in the playoffs?

The bottom line is that we don't know how much Teague knew throughout the season. We don't know how injured he was throughout the season. We just know that after the allstar break, there was a takeoff for Teague.

I just can't believe that Hawk fans refuse to give Teague the benefit of the doubt.

1) Teague loses his #1 reliable scorer...It shouldn't matter

2) Teague loses his second reliable score in Milsapp...It shouldn't matter.

3) Teague down to playing with a 3rd string center who hadn't dunked in years...It shouldn't matter.

4) Teague playing with a very limited 3 on offense...It shouldn't matter.

5) Teague starting 2 is limited also...It shouldn't mtter

6) Teague occasionally plays with the Hawk bench which consist of a bunch of nobodies...It shouldn't matter

Y'all act like you have never seen Ayón and Antić try to finish around the basket. Y'all act like DMC or Korver could finish around the basket if their life depended on it...Y'all act like Brand can still jump and finish around the basket. Did y'all see Antić's jump shot in the playoffs? I agree with Diesel in that you need players that can consistently make shots to make your point guard look like a competent passer like Horford did at the beginning of the season. So please stop trying to convince this message board that it doesn't matter who the other starting 4 are when you are a point guard because it does!

[AHF]

I will just give a couple of thoughts on why these things may matter but not enough to proclaim a thoroughly average regular season to be some master piece:

1) Teague loses his #1 reliable scorer...It shouldn't matter. (Acknowledged that it mattered. The question is how much do you handicap him for that. The answer is that when your team is still above average shooting that you are still in a position to succeed.)

2) Teague loses his second reliable score in Milsapp...It shouldn't matter. (Sorry. Those 74 games he played really don't count, do they?)

3) Teague down to playing with a 3rd string center who hadn't dunked in years...It shouldn't matter. (Elton Brand's .539 FG% really killed this team.)

4) Teague playing with a very limited 3 on offense...It shouldn't matter. (Very limited. While shooting .470 from the field and .362 from 3pt range).

5) Teague starting 2 is limited also...It shouldn't mtter (So limited that he led the league in TS%. What a liability.)

6) Teague occasionally plays with the Hawk bench which consist of a bunch of nobodies...It shouldn't matter (Is occasionally playing with reserves supposed to make him unique among PGs? Or is the idea that the Hawks' bench with guys like Lou Williams - better TS%, RB/36 & A/TO ratio than Teague; Mack - better 3pt%, FT%, RB/36, A/TO than Teague; Mike Scott - better TS% than Teague; Pero Antić - better TS% than Teague; Cartier Martin - better TS% than Teague; etc. were so much worse than other teams that you shouldn't compare him to teams with superior bench talent?)

[willthepureshooter]

You realize that post was a mix of traditional and advanced metrics, right, or have turnovers, rebounds, shooting, etc. become "advanced stats"?

Ask yourself why the advanced metric based on per minute production placed Teague right below Williams and you can see some of the flaws in Teague's 2013-14 season:

Deron

.450 FG%

Teague

.438 FG%

Deron

.366 3pt%

Teague

.329 3pt%

Deron

2.76 A/TO ratio

Teague

2.27 A/TO ratio

Deron

1.6 steals/36

Teague

1.3 steals/36

Deron

112 ORTG

Teague

106 ORTG

(same defensive rating, rebounds and blocks)

Now you can laugh at Deron's pathetic season and then scratch that bird hair over why so many of his numbers are better than Teague's from last year.

Lol go ahead and continue to manipulate stats to cover a bum in Deron Williams. This is beyond hilarious for you to even try to make a case for Deron. The guy literally regressed into a D League player.

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[jy23]

The point is that you think of his ability to score (individual)... In all actuality, Westbrook is a very talented scorer who is a ballhog on offense. Like I said to begin with, he's not as good of a team player as Teague. You say he's better than Teague... I say he's poison to a team. You say look at his offense.... I say look at his team lose to teams that they shouldn't because he has to get his numbers.

Here's the truth that you will hate... Because KD was MVP, Westbrook will do anything he can to prove that he's the alpha dog NOW.

That's not truth, that's your opinion that you are trying to pass off as fact. Is he a plus rebounder for his position and one of the best rebounders on that team? Is he an above average defender? Is he an average passer? None of that had to do with his scoring and Teague isn't better than him at any of it. I like Teague but to try and compare him to Westbrook is stupid. Y'all keep talking about San Antonio, is Scott brooks poppovich? Does he run that team in any way like pop does? Stop blaming everything on Westbrook. Yes he takes bad shots sometimes but a big concern from everyone here is that Teague isn't aggressive enough most times. Id much rather go down with a guy that has no bullets left in the chamber than a guy who didn't even pull out his gun. San Antonio still has 3 stars they just play differently, keep trying to convince yourself otherwise. It isn't a bunch of scrubs out there just playing good basketball.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Westbrook plays, and the Thunder have gone to 2 WC Finals and a NBA Finals.

Westbrook doesn't play, and they get bounced in the 1st round.

The problem with OKC isn't Westbrook. The problems are their overrated coach and the fact that their ownership blinked when they had the chance to secure Harden and create a dynasty .. but pay some luxury tax to do so.

Westbrook is and always HAS BEEN the Alpha Dog on OKC. Durant is a great player. But he's no killer on the court. He needs Westbrook because he can't handle the pressure by himself.

As for Teague being a better team fit than Westbrook ... no way in hell. Westbrook is very capable of creating for others and playing within a team concept. But because he's an elite athlete, it would be silly not to let him take over a game at times.

Should he yield to Durant? At times, yes ... but not all the time.

[Diesel]

Teague's rising and falling play had nothing to do with Josh last season but it was a similar pattern of inconsistency. The next step for him is sustaining elevated performance.

I don't begin to understand how you can say that Smoove had nothing to do with Teague's inconsistency. When you have a Sf that pulls the ball down and starts playing PG... it effects the real PG. Get out the stats and watch the game a bit. Smoove for as much as I liked his ability and potential was a poison to our offensive efforts... and he did effect the PG position.

[Diesel]

Westbrook plays, and the Thunder have gone to 2 WC Finals and a NBA Finals.

Westbrook doesn't play, and they get bounced in the 1st round.

The problem with OKC isn't Westbrook. The problems are their overrated coach and the fact that their ownership blinked when they had the chance to secure Harden and create a dynasty .. but pay some luxury tax to do so.

Westbrook is and always HAS BEEN the Alpha Dog on OKC. Durant is a great player. But he's no killer on the court. He needs Westbrook because he can't handle the pressure by himself.

As for Teague being a better team fit than Westbrook ... no way in hell. Westbrook is very capable of creating for others and playing within a team concept. But because he's an elite athlete, it would be silly not to let him take over a game at times.

Should he yield to Durant? At times, yes ... but not all the time.

Hold on... extremist. Nobody said that OKC doesn't miss the talent. That's the reason they can't win it all... They rely on talent that can win games but is disruptive to team play. OKC should have beaten the dogsnot out of San Antonio from a talent perspective. They lost because of Westbrook's need to be the alphadog on the team.

Talent got them there but non-team play lost it for them.

[Diesel]

I will just give a couple of thoughts on why these things may matter but not enough to proclaim a thoroughly average regular season to be some master piece:

1) Teague loses his #1 reliable scorer...It shouldn't matter. (Acknowledged that it mattered. The question is how much do you handicap him for that. The answer is that when your team is still above average shooting that you are still in a position to succeed.)

2) Teague loses his second reliable score in Milsapp...It shouldn't matter. (Sorry. Those 74 games he played really don't count, do they?)

3) Teague down to playing with a 3rd string center who hadn't dunked in years...It shouldn't matter. (Elton Brand's .539 FG% really killed this team.)

4) Teague playing with a very limited 3 on offense...It shouldn't matter. (Very limited. While shooting .470 from the field and .362 from 3pt range).

5) Teague starting 2 is limited also...It shouldn't mtter (So limited that he led the league in TS%. What a liability.)

6) Teague occasionally plays with the Hawk bench which consist of a bunch of nobodies...It shouldn't matter (Is occasionally playing with reserves supposed to make him unique among PGs? Or is the idea that the Hawks' bench with guys like Lou Williams - better TS%, RB/36 & A/TO ratio than Teague; Mack - better 3pt%, FT%, RB/36, A/TO than Teague; Mike Scott - better TS% than Teague; Pero Antić - better TS% than Teague; Cartier Martin - better TS% than Teague; etc. were so much worse than other teams that you shouldn't compare him to teams with superior bench talent?)

I just want to show a few things:

1

2

3

4

These are 4 of the games that Sap missed in Feb. That means no Sap, no Horf. Who should Teague call on for scoring?

[IBelieveInFerry]

I will just give a couple of thoughts on why these things may matter but not enough to proclaim a thoroughly average regular season to be some master piece:

1) Teague loses his #1 reliable scorer...It shouldn't matter. (Acknowledged that it mattered. The question is how much do you handicap him for that. The answer is that when your team is still above average shooting that you are still in a position to succeed.)

2) Teague loses his second reliable score in Milsapp...It shouldn't matter. (Sorry. Those 74 games he played really don't count, do they?)

3) Teague down to playing with a 3rd string center who hadn't dunked in years...It shouldn't matter. (Elton Brand's .539 FG% really killed this team.)

4) Teague playing with a very limited 3 on offense...It shouldn't matter. (Very limited. While shooting .470 from the field and .362 from 3pt range).

5) Teague starting 2 is limited also...It shouldn't mtter (So limited that he led the league in TS%. What a liability.)

6) Teague occasionally plays with the Hawk bench which consist of a bunch of nobodies...It shouldn't matter (Is occasionally playing with reserves supposed to make him unique among PGs? Or is the idea that the Hawks' bench with guys like Lou Williams - better TS%, RB/36 & A/TO ratio than Teague; Mack - better 3pt%, FT%, RB/36, A/TO than Teague; Mike Scott - better TS% than Teague; Pero Antić - better TS% than Teague; Cartier Martin - better TS% than Teague; etc. were so much worse than other teams that you shouldn't compare him to teams with superior bench talent?)

I know that you guys like to use advanced metrics to demonstrate a player's scoring ability but it simply does not apply to Hawks players other than Horford and Milsap. The rest of the roster is limited offensively which cuts down on the number of point guard centric plays that you can run. For example..You cannot run pick and role with anyone on on the team other than Horford and Milsap. Nor can we run pick play resulting in alleyoops etc. And usually our shooter score on the 3rd or 4th pass meaning that our 2 man game is even further limited. So of course if 1 of the 2 players that you can run a 2 man play goes down, your point guard's assist numbers will go dramatically down.

[NBASupes]

This thread is so pointless because Diesel is a stan for Teague. Jeff isn't even Westbrook lite, he is simply a solid PG with good talent, Westbrook is a is very good PG with elite talent. The gap can't be more monumental.

Edited June 24, 2014 by nbasupes40retired

[NBASupes]

I just can't believe that Hawk fans refuse to give Teague the benefit of the doubt.

1) Teague loses his #1 reliable scorer...It shouldn't matter

2) Teague loses his second reliable score in Milsapp...It shouldn't matter.

3) Teague down to playing with a 3rd string center who hadn't dunked in years...It shouldn't matter.

4) Teague playing with a very limited 3 on offense...It shouldn't matter.

5) Teague starting 2 is limited also...It shouldn't mtter

6) Teague occasionally plays with the Hawk bench which consist of a bunch of nobodies...It shouldn't matter

Y'all act like you have never seen Ayón and Antić try to finish around the basket. Y'all act like DMC or Korver could finish around the basket if their life depended on it...Y'all act like Brand can still jump and finish around the basket. Did y'all see Antić's jump shot in the playoffs? I agree with Diesel in that you need players that can consistently make shots to make your point guard look like a competent passer like Horford did at the beginning of the season. So please stop trying to convince this message board that it doesn't matter who the other starting 4 are when you are a point guard because it does!

Stop it, Horford doesn't make players like Jeff look like competent passers because he makes shots, it's cause he sets great screens, get open, knows how to move without the ball and can score without demanding the ball. Sometimes you want to give Jeff to much credit for other strength. Jeff can go and go sooner than later.

[MaceCase]

"Why take the real deal when you can have the homeless man's version instead?" ~Nobody sane ever

[willthepureshooter]

Stop it, Horford doesn't make players like Jeff look like competent passers because he makes shots, it's cause he sets great screens, get open, knows how to move without the ball and can score without demanding the ball. Sometimes you want to give Jeff to much credit for other strength. Jeff can go and go sooner than later.

I guess he's setting those GREAT screens for OJ Mayo because he definitely struggled setting them for Horford. AL was getting more moving screens than any center before he got hurt.

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[NBASupes]

I guess he's setting those GREAT screens for OJ Mayo because he definitely struggled setting them for Horford. AL was getting more moving screens than any center before he got hurt.

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You haven't heard me mention O.J. since the squad where O.J. would be needed and that was when we had Joe, Marvin, Al, and Smoove. Once again, have some common sense.

[IBelieveInFerry]

Stop it, Horford doesn't make players like Jeff look like competent passers because he makes shots, it's cause he sets great screens, get open, knows how to move without the ball and can score without demanding the ball. Sometimes you want to give Jeff to much credit for other strength. Jeff can go and go sooner than later.

I guess this is the sticking point in the discussion. I just happened to be someone who feels that it does matter who is out on the court playing with your point guard. And if your teammates are good at finishing around the rim or has some other reliable shot, your point guard's assist numbers are better...Teague was to 10 in assist with sub par scorers which is a testament to his improving point guard skills

[MaceCase]

Teague was to 10 in assist with sub par scorers which is a testament to his improving point guard skills

No it's not. He's top 10 based on pure volume rather than establishing the quality of the passer. Greivis Vasquez achieved the same feat with a worse cast of teammates 2 seasons ago yet I doubt many would make the argument for him as a top 10 or upcoming PG in this league.

People need to lay off trying to prop up Jeffrey's passing by blaming the team and then whiffing entirely by failing to recognize that the team as a whole has been top 2 in the NBA in assists two years running. Do you think that perhaps Jeffrey could be a beneficiary of both LD's and Bud's movement systems rather than being the focal point? As AHF has pointed out, other players are having to pass to Jeffrey who is shooting far worse than they are yet the assist for the team remain high so how is the reverse true in that they are somehow keeping Jeffrey's own assists low?

[Bonkers]

Yea uh no

[jy23]

Westbrook plays, and the Thunder have gone to 2 WC Finals and a NBA Finals.

Westbrook doesn't play, and they get bounced in the 1st round.

The problem with OKC isn't Westbrook. The problems are their overrated coach and the fact that their ownership blinked when they had the chance to secure Harden and create a dynasty .. but pay some luxury tax to do so.

Westbrook is and always HAS BEEN the Alpha Dog on OKC. Durant is a great player. But he's no killer on the court. He needs Westbrook because he can't handle the pressure by himself.

As for Teague being a better team fit than Westbrook ... no way in hell. Westbrook is very capable of creating for others and playing within a team concept. But because he's an elite athlete, it would be silly not to let him take over a game at times.

Should he yield to Durant? At times, yes ... but not all the time.

Literally couldn't agree more. This entire discussion is crazy