This trade cleared enough money to trade Horford for Klay / Lee

[Dragitoff]

I don't remember the last non-superstar team to win a title other than the Pistons.  I mean, sure I know that the 1978-79 Supersonics did it but I was too young to remember them.

 

All I remember are teams led by Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan, Larry Bird, Shaq, Magic, Isiah, Kobe, Hakeem, Moses Malone, etc.

 

Definitely a team built with stars and a system can compete with a team with just stars but the teams that try to get by with good but not great players and a system don't win championships for the most part.

 

 

Many would argue this year's Spurs are just that.  Duncan is a no-brainer HoF'er; however he's at the end of his career.  He no longer plays like a "superstar".  And see, now we're back to the, "what qualifies as a superstar argument".  When Tony Parker was a FA a few years ago, many on this board argued he wasn't a superstar.  What's changed?  Our definition of superstar is what has changed.  I'll take a team with 3 legit "All-Stars" and defined role players that all fit a proven system over a hodge podge team of put together loosely defined "superstars".  Real teams beat those teams. 

[DS5]

Only read the first couple of posts, but we could just deal straight with GSW and trade Horford for Klay and Bogut. I don't think the Warriors are so high on Bogut and he still has 3 years of high salary, and we now have the cap space for that trade.

[Dragitoff]

Further to this argument, take some of the top FA or trade target names out there today and put them on the same team just because they're superstars and tell me what kind of team you'd have. 

 

Carmelo Anthony-superstar

Kevin Love-superstar

Chris Bosh-borderline superstar since he was the 2nd wheel on the super Heat. 

 

That's a killer offensive team that will win plenty of regular season games, but a terrible team on the defensive side that will have all kinds of trouble stopping anyone. 

 

Superstars alone don't win championships, and I'd love to get one here.  I'm one of the few that hold out hope we actually do (go look at the trade board if you don't believe me) but I'm also no longer in the camp that is the only way to win a championship. 

[cam1218]

Maybe, but I'm starting to get off this "superstar" train and look more at the 3 "all-star" to win a title train because the title "superstar" is so subjective and sometimes a system with quality players that fit beat "superstars". I think Thompson is definitely an All-Star and Lee is a borderline All-Star much like Millsap. I think Millsap and Lee are redundant so if that's the proposed deal, I could see Lee getting flipped to another team for more depth at Center or possibly used in a S&T for someone like Monroe.

I think the all star system could work in the East. If you assume the big three stay you have Miami at number one. Indiana is the second best team and outside of George I don't think they have much. It's one star and some good players. I definitely think three really good players is better than George/Hibbert/West.

We talk a lot about players like LeBron or Melo staying in the East because it's easier to advance. I'm sure our coach and GM believe this too; it's probably why they are here. Whatever they have planned is probably for winning the East and hoping we can pull out a championship against a tired Western team.

Should be an interesting offseason again..

[AHF]

Oh, I forgot that you think Tim Duncan is interchangable with Robin Lopez.  My bad.  Let's just trade for Lopez and win ourselves a championship.

 

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I don't find it at all a coincidence that Duncan's Spurs (and he was the team's best player over the post-season) won a 5th championship while teams built around guys like Marc Gasol/Zach Randolph, Al Jefferson, LaMarcus Aldridge, etc. went home.  You think Duncan may be the same as those guys but I see a GREAT basketball player who is the foundation for that team and not some guy who is going to make 2-3 All-Star games over the course of his career.  Heck, Duncan was first-team All-NBA just one year ago and took it easy in the regular season this year to rest his legs - as if I am going to punish him for that when he stepped it up in the playoffs as designed.  

 

I fundamentally do not buy your "three All-Stars" theory when the only teams you can find that fit the model are ones that are built around 1st Ballot HOFers, MVPs, etc. and not around the type of borderline All-Stars that are available in FA (like Luol Deng, Paul Millsap, Al Jefferson, etc.).

 

Come talk to me when a Spurs team based around Parker and Leonard win a championship without Duncan.

[Admin]

Only read the first couple of posts, but we could just deal straight with GSW and trade Horford for Klay and Bogut. I don't think the Warriors are so high on Bogut and he still has 3 years of high salary, and we now have the cap space for that trade.

I would be okay with that as well but not sure they're giving up Bogut with Klay. Haven't checked but I think Bogut has missed way more games than Lee though hasn't he?

[Dragitoff]

Oh, I forgot that you think Tim Duncan is interchangable with Robin Lopez.  My bad.  Let's just trade for Lopez and win ourselves a championship.

 

* * * * * *

 

I don't find it at all a coincidence that Duncan's Spurs (and he was the team's best player over the post-season) won a 5th championship while teams built around guys like Marc Gasol/Zach Randolph, Al Jefferson, LaMarcus Aldridge, etc. went home.  You think Duncan may be the same as those guys but I see a GREAT basketball player who is the foundation for that team and not some guy who is going to make 2-3 All-Star games over the course of his career.  Heck, Duncan was first-team All-NBA just one year ago and took it easy in the regular season this year to rest his legs - as if I am going to punish him for that when he stepped it up in the playoffs as designed.  

 

I fundamentally do not buy your "three All-Stars" theory when the only teams you can find that fit the model are ones that are built around 1st Ballot HOFers, MVPs, etc. and not around the type of borderline All-Stars that are available in FA (like Luol Deng, Paul Millsap, Al Jefferson, etc.).

 

Come talk to me when a Spurs team based around Parker and Leonard win a championship without Duncan.

 

Struck a nerve did I?  I think Duncan is the consummate professional in every sense of the word, but at this point in his career, I don't consider him a superstar.  There are quite a few big men that put up better numbers than he does at this point in his career.  Does that diminish his career?  Absolutely not, but that's like Chipper Jones in his last season.  Did he still play well?  Did he still help his team win?  Did he play like a superstar?  No.  The same way I don't consider Dwayne Wade a superstar.  Players get older and they can't perform daily like they once did. They can obviously still contribute and be a valuable part of a winning team.  I'm not opposed to getting a superstar, nor would I be opposed to getting Tim Duncan.  I'm just saying the superstar way isn't the only way to me. 

[Sothron]

Duncan is still a superstar. Esp. in today's NBA when he has almost no peers as a low post player and doesn't have to worry about hardly any centers that can actually physically match up with him.

 

As AHF mentioned and I have said on numerous occasions: the only two teams in NBA HISTORY that won without at least one superstar were the mid 00's Pistons and the late 70's Sonics. That's it. Ever. I'd say that pretty much is definitive proof that you need at least one superstar to win a title.

[Admin]

@Dragitoff has a damn good argument here about whether or not Duncan is still a superstar at this point in his career. I'd say no. But their style of play and ridiculous level of 2nd tier talent is 2nd to none and easily overcame the superstar model. 

[Sothron]

@Dragitoff has a damn good argument here about whether or not Duncan is still a superstar at this point in his career. I'd say no. But their style of play and ridiculous level of 2nd tier talent is 2nd to none and easily overcame the superstar model. 

 

Don't you think the fact Duncan has no one in the league to worry about guarding him in the low post or on the defensive side he has almost no one to worry about guarding in the low post is a factor there? I mean imagine if Jordan was 38 and there wasn't any real shooting guards left for him to worry about. he'd still be a superstar because of all the things he brought he can still do, even if diminished, better than just about anyone else in the NBA. Duncan has nothing to fear in the low post anymore.

[Guest]

I would be okay with that as well but not sure they're giving up Bogut with Klay. Haven't checked but I think Bogut has missed way more games than Lee though hasn't he?

Ya Bogut has missed more games than Lee. As much as I dislike Lee, I would definitely take him if we got Thompson. Lee does a lot of damage offensively ever night and that's against dominant western power forwards like Lamarcus Aldridge, Dirk Nowitzki, etc. in the east, no telling what he could do. This is why I'd love to pull a deal with a western conference team. If you are a borderline all star in the west, you could be a mini superstar in the east. Gimme Lee all day if it brings a young 24 year old talent in Thompson.

[Guest]

I think his #'s might be a bit deflated due to sharing a back court with Curry. But it's very hard to judge if he's a for real star caliber player or not. Advanced metrics don't like him a whole lot though.

Definitely this. Like I said I watch the Warriors 2nd most after Hawks, have so since moving to the bay as a kid. Curry dominates the ball, he is usually the guy that takes the last shot but not only that, even when he doesn't he's the one creating the plays. Klay's talents are going to waste in golden state. They are using him as a spot up shooter when he can do a lot more. His numbers will increase all across the board on a new team, specially one that moves the ball around like we do. Thank you Bud!

[Admin]

Don't you think the fact Duncan has no one in the league to worry about guarding him in the low post or on the defensive side he has almost no one to worry about guarding in the low post is a factor there? I mean imagine if Jordan was 38 and there wasn't any real shooting guards left for him to worry about. he'd still be a superstar because of all the things he brought he can still do, even if diminished, better than just about anyone else in the NBA. Duncan has nothing to fear in the low post anymore.

 

I don't think it has anything to do with it. In his twilight Jordan was no longer a superstar and neither is Duncan. 

[Sothron]

I don't think it has anything to do with it. In his twilight Jordan was no longer a superstar and neither is Duncan. 

 

Lol if you don't think Duncan having no one to compete with in the low post is still why he's a viable superstar then I don't see the point in discussing it further. The ONLY reason Duncan is still effective at his age is SOLELY due to that fact. There's no one he has to worry about in the post. Which, in turn, leaves him as the top dog when he all he has are puppies to fight with.

[Admin]

Lol if you don't think Duncan having no one to compete with in the low post is still why he's a viable superstar then I don't see the point in discussing it further. The ONLY reason Duncan is still effective at his age is SOLELY due to that fact. There's no one he has to worry about in the post. Which, in turn, leaves him as the top dog when he all he has are puppies to fight with.

 

A superstar can bring it every night. If you think that Duncan can still do that then you're loco man. He's still a very good player and if you need 1 superstar game out of him or maybe even a few you can get it, but when your coach has to limit your minutes so that you can still play your best, you are no longer a superstar. 

[Sothron]

A superstar can bring it every night. If you think that Duncan can still do that then you're loco man. He's still a very good player and if you need 1 superstar game out of him or maybe even a few you can get it, but when your coach has to limit your minutes so that you can still play your best, you are no longer a superstar. 

 

He's a superstar when he plays though. That's the point. He has no rival in the low post. He could be 45 and if he was still healthy he could still go out and be a force like he is because there is no competition for him in today's game. When is the last time you saw a bad game from Duncan? Even on reduced minutes he still outperforms pretty much any big in the game.

[Admin]

He's a superstar when he plays though. That's the point. He has no rival in the low post. He could be 45 and if he was still healthy he could still go out and be a force like he is because there is no competition for him in today's game. When is the last time you saw a bad game from Duncan? Even on reduced minutes he still outperforms pretty much any big in the game.

 

Okay I'm not getting drawn into another of these endless arguments with you. You believe Duncan is a superstar now. I disagree. We can agree to disagree, both knowing you're wrong. 

[Sothron]

Okay I'm not getting drawn into another of these endless arguments with you. You believe Duncan is a superstar now. I disagree. We can agree to disagree, both knowing you're wrong. 

 

We will agree to disagree, both knowing you are wrong. Absolutely.

[Dragitoff]

A superstar can bring it every night. If you think that Duncan can still do that then you're loco man. He's still a very good player and if you need 1 superstar game out of him or maybe even a few you can get it, but when your coach has to limit your minutes so that you can still play your best, you are no longer a superstar. 

 

 

This is the point I was trying to make. Thank you.  He's still got superstar talent, but only if his minutes are monitored and only for limited spurts.  To me, a true, legitimate superstar is a player who can be an MVP candidate every single year.  Duncan can't do that at this point in his career. 

[coachx]

Lol if you don't think Duncan having no one to compete with in the low post is still why he's a viable superstar then I don't see the point in discussing it further. The ONLY reason Duncan is still effective at his age is SOLELY due to that fact. There's no one he has to worry about in the post. Which, in turn, leaves him as the top dog when he all he has are puppies to fight with.

The Spurs got lucky with Ibaka getting hurt in their series. Duncan did have to go through Aldridge in Round 2. Aldridge came off a phenomenal season. Bosh isn't exactly chopped liver but old man Duncan took it to him. Dalembert and Dirk took him to 7 games in Round 1. 

 

He had an all star post player to beat in each round of the playoffs. Lucky for him the best defender out of the bunch was got hurt.