Merged: Greg Monroe Topics

[Peoriabird]

I hear you, but it's debatable if you exclude Horford's return as a 'talent upgrade'.  Even still, would you consider us an upper echelon team in the NBA?  The East?  If not, then the talent increase was negligible at best.

A. Payne may not be polished but he is a significant talent!   Walter Taveres also is a significant talent!  Bazemore has talent also!

Edited August 12, 2014 by Peoriabird

[Vol4ever]

There is no report that we low balled D12.  That's BS.   I'm sure we offered the max like everyone else but Dwight wasn't ever coming here.  Don't know why people can't get that through their head.   Paul wasn't ever leaving LA.   These aren't failings of Ferry.   If you're blaming Ferry for not landing Dwight and Paul then it just exposes your obvious agenda against him.   Now if you really wanted Jefferson and Deng then we could have had those guys, but frankly i'm just as happy we don't.

You will never officially see a report that Ferry lowballed D12.    What you are failing to see if the results spell out with what has happened.  

[Diesel]

Well I would agree but free agents have no interest to come here anyways and if your theory is right I'm not mad at ferry.

But because I know that theory has to be wrong to some extent I believe after the bigger name free agents are chased, ferry then just go after exactly what fits the team. I can't believe that ferry just ignores top level free agents just not true! Majority if not all of them just don't want to come here simple as that.

Also I wouldn't call it lowballing but more giving the players what they are worth!

 

Not ignores.  Lowballs.

 

Ferry rests his lowball offers behind the fact that we have a hard time bringing in free agents.  It's a convenient excuse for somebody who is picking players based on analytics and his system.  We don't know what exactly he offered a guy like Deng, but reports state that we could have had Deng for 10 Million.  We didn't entertain Gasol and we have done less lifting on Monroe.  We didn't SNT smoove when we could and we got less for Joe than he was worth.  Ferry likes having  "Cap flexibility" but he does nothing with it. I'm telling you it fits his personality and his dad's personality that you can win without stars. Look over his career as a GM.  He was disliked in Cleveland because he never brought in a "Star" player to play next to Lebron.  Now, Cleveland's GM is making it Job number one to bring in Love.

In Ferry's world, it seems that he just want a team of interchangeable guys who play a very specific role in the system so that he can point to the system and say, this is how we won.

Doing that, you disregard talent.

Doing that, you make FAs feel like there's nothing to Atlanta.

So, yeah, he will from time to time offer a lowball offer to talent, but I don't think he intends on them ever signing.

[Guest]

A. Payne may not be polished but he is a significant talent!   Walter Taveres also is a significant talent!  Bazemore has talent also!

I like Payne and I hope he makes waves for us but he's still a rookie so we'll have to wait and see (that's why I said it's debatable).

 

Will Tavares even make the roster?  Bazemore is the definition of confirmation bias.  If Orlando had signed him would we be thinking, "Man, we better make sure we gameplan for Bazemore when the Magic come to town."?

[Guest]

Not ignores.  Lowballs.

 

Ferry rests his lowball offers behind the fact that we have a hard time bringing in free agents.  It's a convenient excuse for somebody who is picking players based on analytics and his system.  We don't know what exactly he offered a guy like Deng, but reports state that we could have had Deng for 10 Million.  We didn't entertain Gasol and we have done less lifting on Monroe.  We didn't SNT smoove when we could and we got less for Joe than he was worth.  Ferry likes having  "Cap flexibility" but he does nothing with it. I'm telling you it fits his personality and his dad's personality that you can win without stars. Look over his career as a GM.  He was disliked in Cleveland because he never brought in a "Star" player to play next to Lebron.  Now, Cleveland's GM is making it Job number one to bring in Love.

In Ferry's world, it seems that he just want a team of interchangeable guys who play a very specific role in the system so that he can point to the system and say, this is how we won.

Doing that, you disregard talent.

Doing that, you make FAs feel like there's nothing to Atlanta.

So, yeah, he will from time to time offer a lowball offer to talent, but I don't think he intends on them ever signing.

Billy Knight?

[Diesel]

I like Payne and I hope he makes waves for us but he's still a rookie so we'll have to wait and see (that's why I said it's debatable).

 

Will Tavares even make the roster?  Bazemore is the definition of confirmation bias.  If Orlando had signed him would we be thinking, "Man, we better make sure we gameplan for Bazemore when the Magic come to town."?

 

What you have been privy to is draft pick worship.  That's what we as Hawks fans become accoustomed to doing.   We treat our draft picks as if they are Lebron or Kawhi ...sight unseen.  This is what's wrong with us.  We overvalue our picks simple because we picked them.  This is not a slight on Payne or Walter... but we're talking about TALENT. I think DFerry has missed out on more talent than he has brought in and I think he did it purposely.  What a shame.

[Diesel]

Billy Knight?

Yes... Just like Knight.  Whereas Knight was Long, athletic... Ferry is high Character, High IQ, can shoot.

The problem is what we saw with Knight.

In pursuit of Long and Athletic he missed out on Chris Paul who is arguably the best PG to come out since Jason Kidd.  First ballot hall of famer because he wanted Long, Athletic Marvin Williams.

The same type of missteps will be made by DFerry because he's more concerned with System than Talent.

[Peoriabird]

Not ignores.  Lowballs.

 

Ferry rests his lowball offers behind the fact that we have a hard time bringing in free agents.  It's a convenient excuse for somebody who is picking players based on analytics and his system.  We don't know what exactly he offered a guy like Deng, but reports state that we could have had Deng for 10 Million.  We didn't entertain Gasol and we have done less lifting on Monroe.  We didn't SNT smoove when we could and we got less for Joe than he was worth.  Ferry likes having  "Cap flexibility" but he does nothing with it. I'm telling you it fits his personality and his dad's personality that you can win without stars. Look over his career as a GM.  He was disliked in Cleveland because he never brought in a "Star" player to play next to Lebron.  Now, Cleveland's GM is making it Job number one to bring in Love.

In Ferry's world, it seems that he just want a team of interchangeable guys who play a very specific role in the system so that he can point to the system and say, this is how we won.

Doing that, you disregard talent.

Doing that, you make FAs feel like there's nothing to Atlanta.

So, yeah, he will from time to time offer a lowball offer to talent, but I don't think he intends on them ever signing.

Deng and Gasol have talent but are they a significantly upgrade over what we already have at this stage in their careers?

[Guest]

Deng and Gasol have talent but are they a significantly upgrade over what we already have at this stage in their careers?

 

For the record, I didn't want Deng but I think he'd make us a better team today (until he got hurt again but that's another discussion).

 

Gasol is a definite upgrade.  I don't know the salary cap stuff enough to add commentary on that portion of the discussion, but I freely acknowledge that's a consideration here too.

[Guest]

What you have been privy to is draft pick worship.  That's what we as Hawks fans become accoustomed to doing.   We treat our draft picks as if they are Lebron or Kawhi ...sight unseen.  This is what's wrong with us.  We overvalue our picks simple because we picked them.  This is not a slight on Payne or Walter... but we're talking about TALENT. I think DFerry has missed out on more talent than he has brought in and I think he did it purposely.  What a shame.

Honestly I don't mind being a homer and overrating our own guys, etc.  But when we have a discussion like this we have to be able to step back and give an informed analysis (to the extent that we can).  You'll get flack for the bolded portion, but I don't think it's inaccurate.  All GM's pass on talent in the name of 'fit' to a degree, but I think we're going overboard with it.

 

Yes... Just like Knight.  Whereas Knight was Long, athletic... Ferry is high Character, High IQ, can shoot.

The problem is what we saw with Knight.

In pursuit of Long and Athletic he missed out on Chris Paul who is arguably the best PG to come out since Jason Kidd.  First ballot hall of famer because he wanted Long, Athletic Marvin Williams.

The same type of missteps will be made by DFerry because he's more concerned with System than Talent.

We're being fed a turd sandwich but instead of moldy wheat bread it's on ciabatta so I guess we feel better about it?

[Peoriabird]

For the record, I didn't want Deng but I think he'd make us a better team today (until he got hurt again but that's another discussion).

 

Gasol is a definite upgrade.  I don't know the salary cap stuff enough to add commentary on that portion of the discussion, but I freely acknowledge that's a consideration here too.

Maybe we should monitor this during the season to see just how improved we would have been with those 2 players...Lets see, Deng's productivity should be compared to Carroll's since he would be taking his minutes or should he be compared to Thabo?  And Gasol's productivity should be compared to Scott and Payne's contribution since he would have been taking their minutes right?

[Guest]

Maybe we should monitor this during the season to see just how improved we would have been with those 2 players...Lets see, Deng's productivity should be compared to Carroll's since he would be taking his minutes or should he be compared to Thabo?  And Gasol's productivity should be compared to Scott and Payne's contribution since he would have been taking their minutes right?

I was thinking along those lines but if I know HS the comparisons will certainly be tracked and monitored to the fullest.  I'd say Deng to Sefolosha and Gasol to Scott/Payne.

[Peoriabird]

I was thinking along those lines but if I know HS the comparisons will certainly be tracked and monitored to the fullest.  I'd say Deng to Sefolosha and Gasol to Scott/Payne.

So what are we going to compare?  Simple stats or something complicated like Winshare48?

[Jody23]

Can somebody provide some documentation on the allegations of low balling by Ferry?

[Diesel]

Honestly I don't mind being a homer and overrating our own guys, etc.  But when we have a discussion like this we have to be able to step back and give an informed analysis (to the extent that we can).  You'll get flack for the bolded portion, but I don't think it's inaccurate.  All GM's pass on talent in the name of 'fit' to a degree, but I think we're going overboard with it.

 

We're being fed a turd sandwich but instead of moldy wheat bread it's on ciabatta so I guess we feel better about it?

 

Well, just to give other fans an opportunity to see how phoney some things are:

 

I found this..

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2Qj7CPx_Zo

 

 

Many fans can easily remember the article where Smoove said that when FAcy hit, he never heard from the Hawks.  Ferry nobody... until one day they came to LA to see Dwight and Smoove was working out and they spoke.  To me, it's this type of attitude that will alienate FAs in the future and it's because we're more concerned with System than talent.

We've missed out on possibilities.  Not to mention, giving away draft picks for more "cap flexibility" that we don't plan to use.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Diesel

[Guest]

So what are we going to compare?  Simple stats or something complicated like Winshare48?

I imagine the simple stats wouldn't do it justice so one of those new fangled ones would probably be best.

 

Can somebody provide some documentation on the allegations of low balling by Ferry?

I doubt there is any.  You'll probably see conjecture like this:

http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2014/7/12/5893407/2014-nba-free-agent-rumors-luol-deng-atlanta-hawks-miami-heat

 

From this we can gather that Atlanta's reported 11 million dollar salary slot being offered is too little for Deng, who is likely seeking to get more out of Phoenix, Miami, Dallas, et al. for their leftover cap space after they struck out on LeBron James and Carmelo Anthony. That Deng is bristling over that level of salary from Atlanta means he has to be looking for something in the three year, 39-45 million dollar range. It's also possible that the Hawks have only offered two seasons and Deng wants more, meaning more dollars over time than a two year offer could provide.

I gather the allegations are more so based on results i.e. guys not signing here and what the signed for elsewhere.

[Diesel]

Can somebody provide some documentation on the allegations of low balling by Ferry?

 

I've already put up documentation that said we lowballed Deng.

 

You've heard from Smoove that he was never contacted, this after Ferry said that Smoove is a top priority going into the offseason.

[Diesel]

I imagine the simple stats wouldn't do it justice so one of those new fangled ones would probably be best.

 

I doubt there is any.  You'll probably see conjecture like this:

http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2014/7/12/5893407/2014-nba-free-agent-rumors-luol-deng-atlanta-hawks-miami-heat

 

I gather the allegations are more so based on results i.e. guys not signing here and what the signed for elsewhere.

 

In the peachtree hoops article, Jay reported that Loul wants more than we offered and then stated that based on what we offered Pau, we probably offered Deng.  However, this article says that we offered Deng less than 10 million.  Which would make more sense.  We wondered Based on the Peachtreehoops offer how Deng could take Miami's 10 Million and turn down our 11?  The truth it seems is that we never offered 11.  We offered less than 10.  That makes a lot more sense.

[Packfill]

A. Payne may not be polished but he is a significant talent!   Walter Taveres also is a significant talent!  Bazemore has talent also!

Those guys all have potentially, but it would be a huge surprise if any of them matured into elite players.  Given where they were drafted and/or the free agent dollars involved, just becoming consistent contributors is a good result for the Hawks.

 

That said, if the Hawks added talent in the form of Payne, Tavares and Bazemore, what do we call what the Hornets did in terms of adding Vonleh, Stephenson and Hairston? How about the Bulls adding McDermott and Mirotic? 

[Vol4ever]

Deng and Gasol have talent but are they a significantly upgrade over what we already have at this stage in their careers?

Absolutely they are an upgrade.  Gasol is one of the, if not the best low post big man in the east.  Deng is a very good 6-9 wing that can shoot, take it to the basket and defend.  

 

I tell yall what, lets watch the games and see what happens this year.