Player Development as an Asset

[curtmcgirt]

I was listening to Bill Simmons podcast with Brian Windhorst, and Windhorst made what could have been the most insightful statement in regards to the breakup of the Big Three in Miami. Paraphrased, it was that the break up of the Big 3 began the day after the first Announcement. Miami dealt two 1st round picks to Cleveland, 2 first round picks to Toronto and 1 more pick to another team. They only had 2nd round picks in 2010 and 2011, traded 2012's pick to Philly, nothing in 2013. None of those players are on the roster and they surrounded LeBron with an aging roster that was breaking down. The only capable #2 player on the roster, Chris Bosh, could never wrest that spot away from DWade. They didn't develop any new pieces to surround him and take some of the load off.

 

Now look at Atlanta's roster/player development:

• Paul Milsap - Developed a dependable 3 point shot
• Jeff Teague - Best season as a pro (possibly due to Josh being gone as well)
• DMC - much more capable offensively than anyone hoped
• Mike Muscala - 2nd round pick that actually contributes
• John Jenkins - Jury is still out
• Dennis - Possibly most raw talent, just needs to be harnessed
• Shelvin Mack - 2nd round pick by Wizards to capable back up/spot starter
• Mike Scott - 2nd round pick that contributes, brings more than he takes away.
• Edy Tavares - 2nd round pick playing overseas
• Lamar Patterson - 2nd round pick playing overseas
• Adreian Payne - signed pick

9 out of the current 16 players under the Hawks control are "home grown". That number includes two of our best 3 players. Since Ferry got here we've not wasted a pick. Even our signed players have gotten meaningful minutes.Cartier Martin, Gustavo Ayón, Dexter Pittman, Elton Brand all received more time than they would have on most other playoff teams. 

 

The only players we seem to have gotten rid of are the chronically injured (Ayón, Bebe), those with low basketball IQ (Smoove, Cunningham, Lou, Cartier), or those who couldn't get with Bud's program ( Smoove, Lou, Cunningham)

 

This leads me to three thoughts.

1. We may not get a LeBron, but depending on the playoffs we look more appealing to Marc Gasol or Kevin Love. to sign outright.
2. If we make a trade, the cupboard would never truly be bare.
3. We have the ability to "restock" players with skill sets we may lose. Our development system is good enough to possibly mitigate losses. 

 

[AHF]

I think the sell/short-change ratio on the guys we have ditched is a little high (Lou was pretty good given the severe injury from which he was coming back and calling Bebe chronically injured seems harsh), but I agree with the overall emphasis of the post.  We need our stud to contend but we have to maximize our assets by developing the free agents we sign (Sap, Mack, DMC, Lou, Bazemore, etc.), the guys for whom we trade (Korver...) and our picks (Jenkins, Bebe, Dennis, Payne, Scott, Walter, etc.).  Only good things come from identifying and developing talent.

[Guest]

Curt, I liked everything about your post minus the part where you said you were listening to Bill Simmons. You know he's a leprechaun right?

[curtmcgirt]

Curt, I liked everything about your post minus the part where you said you were listening to Bill Simmons. You know he's a leprechaun right?

 

Curt, I liked everything about your post minus the part where you said you were listening to Bill Simmons. You know he's a leprechaun right?

 

I gotta get my NBA fix somehow.

 

I think the sell/short-change ratio on the guys we have ditched is a little high (Lou was pretty good given the severe injury from which he was coming back and calling Bebe chronically injured seems harsh), but I agree with the overall emphasis of the post.  We need our stud to contend but we have to maximize our assets by developing the free agents we sign (Sap, Mack, DMC, Lou, Bazemore, etc.), the guys for whom we trade (Korver...) and our picks (Jenkins, Bebe, Dennis, Payne, Scott, Walter, etc.).  Only good things come from identifying and developing talent.

 

I know I was harsh on Lou, and I don't think it was the injury that was his problem, but more that when things broke down, he resorted to his instincts rather than keeping with the play. With Bebe, has there ever been a big man that played well after knee injuries started? And he was in a play once a week league. He may not be built for a 4 games in 5 nights stretch. That's a recipe for chronic knee and possibly back issues.

[tonegully]

 

I was listening to Bill Simmons podcast with Brian Windhorst, and Windhorst made what could have been the most insightful statement in regards to the breakup of the Big Three in Miami. Paraphrased, it was that the break up of the Big 3 began the day after the first Announcement. Miami dealt two 1st round picks to Cleveland, 2 first round picks to Toronto and 1 more pick to another team. They only had 2nd round picks in 2010 and 2011, traded 2012's pick to Philly, nothing in 2013. None of those players are on the roster and they surrounded LeBron with an aging roster that was breaking down. The only capable #2 player on the roster, Chris Bosh, could never wrest that spot away from DWade. They didn't develop any new pieces to surround him and take some of the load off.

 

Now look at Atlanta's roster/player development:

• Paul Milsap - Developed a dependable 3 point shot
• Jeff Teague - Best season as a pro (possibly due to Josh being gone as well)
• DMC - much more capable offensively than anyone hoped
• Mike Muscala - 2nd round pick that actually contributes
• John Jenkins - Jury is still out
• Dennis - Possibly most raw talent, just needs to be harnessed
• Shelvin Mack - 2nd round pick by Wizards to capable back up/spot starter
• Mike Scott - 2nd round pick that contributes, brings more than he takes away.
• Edy Tavares - 2nd round pick playing overseas
• Lamar Patterson - 2nd round pick playing overseas
• Adreian Payne - signed pick

9 out of the current 16 players under the Hawks control are "home grown". That number includes two of our best 3 players. Since Ferry got here we've not wasted a pick. Even our signed players have gotten meaningful minutes.Cartier Martin, Gustavo Ayón, Dexter Pittman, Elton Brand all received more time than they would have on most other playoff teams. 

 

The only players we seem to have gotten rid of are the chronically injured (Ayón, Bebe), those with low basketball IQ (Smoove, Cunningham, Lou, Cartier), or those who couldn't get with Bud's program ( Smoove, Lou, Cunningham)

 

This leads me to three thoughts.

1. We may not get a LeBron, but depending on the playoffs we look more appealing to Marc Gasol or Kevin Love. to sign outright.
2. If we make a trade, the cupboard would never truly be bare.
3. We have the ability to "restock" players with skill sets we may lose. Our development system is good enough to possibly mitigate losses. 

 

This is one of the best post this year about our team and current situation. Now waiting for the regular Ferry haters to come on in and hate.

[AHF]

I gotta get my NBA fix somehow.

 

 

I know I was harsh on Lou, and I don't think it was the injury that was his problem, but more that when things broke down, he resorted to his instincts rather than keeping with the play. With Bebe, has there ever been a big man that played well after knee injuries started? And he was in a play once a week league. He may not be built for a 4 games in 5 nights stretch. That's a recipe for chronic knee and possibly back issues.

 

Plenty of big men have had injuries and came back to play well.  David Robinson had his well timed injury (Duncan!) and then came back to average 22 and 11 the next year.  Z had his best years after his major foot injuries.  Hakeem missed a good part of a year over an injury (thanks Cartwright).  Kareem was out for months multiple times for broken bones.  

 

There is so much that is individual to each player that it is hard to say.  Wade had knee surgery at Marquette and went on to a HOF career while other guys have knee surgery and never recover.  

 

I just think it is way too early to say Bebe is medically ruined when there was not any catastrophic event from the draft to his return to competitive play last season.

[Guest]

Plenty of big men have had injuries and came back to play well.  David Robinson had his well timed injury (Duncan!) and then came back to average 22 and 11 the next year.  Z had his best years after his major foot injuries.  Hakeem missed a good part of a year over an injury (thanks Cartwright).  Kareem was out for months multiple times for broken bones.  

 

There is so much that is individual to each player that it is hard to say.  Wade had knee surgery at Marquette and went on to a HOF career while other guys have knee surgery and never recover.  

 

I just think it is way too early to say Bebe is medically ruined when there was not any catastrophic event from the draft to his return to competitive play last season.

True, I think Df trading away Bebe was less about his knees but more about his attitude.  Leaving the team is Spain to seek treatment, Bebe wanting to come over this year - somehow it seems that DF wanted him to stay another year.

There was an article I read a while back that said if Bebe is to succeed in the NBA he has to put the work in because he already thinks he's a star and a lil high maintenance.  Maybe DF had concerns about his work ethic.  I'm just speculating of course.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

This is one of the best post this year about our team and current situation. Now waiting for the regular Ferry haters to come on in and hate.

 

It's not about coming here and hating.  But you guys act like the GM is doing something here that no other team is doing.  You could go through every team in the NBA, and find instances of player development.  Some even more significant than what we're supposedly doing.

 

In fact, you could've said the same thing about the Rick Sund era Hawks, in which all he did was keep the team together + add Jamal Crawford, and we made the 2nd round of the playoffs in 2 of the 5 years he was calling the shot, and never missed the playoffs.

 

What we need to see, is one or more of these players develop SIGNIFICANTLY to the point that they can elevate the team to that next level.

 

- Can Dennis develop to the point that he's not only ahead of Mack on the PG depth chart, but being a serious challenger to Teague to be the starter?

 

- Can Payne develop to becoming the undisputed 3rd big on the team that you have to play 20 - 25 minutes a night . . in his 1st or 2nd year in the league?

 

- Can Scott become a bonafide 6th man type of scorer that is in the discussion for 6th man of the year?

 

- Can Carroll make good on his being the "African-American Kyle Korver" comment, and shoot 40% from 3 point range?

 

- Most important . . . can Horford, Millsap, or Teague elevate their game to at least a borderline superstar level? ( ala what you've seen with LaMarcus Aldridge and Damian Lillard )

 

 

 

If people want to praise player development, that's the type of development we need to see.   Not basic developmental things like "oh I get to play overseas" or "oh, I'm playing during scrub time, so I'm developing".   Every team in the league can say that.

 

But what are we doing developmental wise, that is different from other teams . . and seeing a RAPID development in our players?

[Guest]

It's not about coming here and hating.  But you guys act like the GM is doing something here that no other team is doing.  You could go through every team in the NBA, and find instances of player development.  Some even more significant than what we're supposedly doing.

 

In fact, you could've said the same thing about the Rick Sund era Hawks, in which all he did was keep the team together + add Jamal Crawford, and we made the 2nd round of the playoffs in 2 of the 5 years he was calling the shot, and never missed the playoffs.  Did you really see the development of the players skill? Josh was still launching ill advised shots, Marvin was still the duck, etc etc. Teague couldn't see the floor

 

What we need to see, is one or more of these players develop SIGNIFICANTLY to the point that they can elevate the team to that next level.

 

- Can Dennis develop to the point that he's not only ahead of Mack on the PG depth chart, but being a serious challenger to Teague to be the starter?

 

- Can Payne develop to becoming the undisputed 3rd big on the team that you have to play 20 - 25 minutes a night . . in his 1st or 2nd year in the league?

 

- Can Scott become a bonafide 6th man type of scorer that is in the discussion for 6th man of the year? Who knew he had a 3-pt shot

 

- Can Carroll make good on his being the "African-American Kyle Korver" comment, and shoot 40% from 3 point range? No one saw this coming, we all thought it was about his defense

 

- Most important . . . can Horford, Millsap, or Teague elevate their game to at least a borderline superstar level? ( ala what you've seen with LaMarcus Aldridge and Damian Lillard )

 

 

 

If people want to praise player development, that's the type of development we need to see.   Not basic developmental things like "oh I get to play overseas" or "oh, I'm playing during scrub time, so I'm developing".   Every team in the league can say that.

 

But what are we doing developmental wise, that is different from other teams . . and seeing a RAPID development in our players?

It's not what about other teams are doing.  It's about what the Hawks are now doing that most of us have never heard about them doing before.  The development has already started, they just have to take it to the next level.

 

I'll let the players and coaches tell it:

http://www.ajc.com/weblogs/atlanta-hawks/2014/feb/14/just-what-are-hawks-daily-vitamins/

 

DMC on Quin: I have to give a shout out to coach Quin (Snyder) – this is the first year a coach really worked with me on my footwork, my shot, spent time with me. That’s a credit to coach Quin. That shows me that he cares about me as a person, cares about me career. I think I’m headed in the right direction. I feel like a rookie. I finally got to play and do what I do. There is a lot of room for growth for me. I’m just trying to get better.

 

http://grantland.com/features/kyle-korver-nba-atlanta-hawks/

Even KK at this late stage of his career is developing.

 

We are by no means a finished project - we are just laying the foundation on which to build upon. 

[Diesel]

I hate to piss on your bonfire that you're calling an inferno but I think it's misrepresented.

 

Miami's problem wasn't the lack of draft picks.

Miami's problem was that they had a Big Three.

 

Big Threes eat up capspace and are guys that you don't want to trade.  So in the end, you're going to be very good with a big three, but you have a very small window.  Most of the time, you don't have high draft picks so you're stuck with 2nd round type guys.  You're making a big deal about late draft picks?

 

OK, we had Midround draft picks... Let's count it up:

 

Jordan Crawford = ???

Jenkins = ???

Bebe = traded for Cash.

Dennis = waiting for him to be better than our #2 PG.

Payne = Let's see.

 

We make mountains out of our first round picks... when in all actuality, they have done nothing.

 

So getting a big three is a calculated risk.  For us, the flexibility is actually having players that we will trade under the right circumstances.  Not having draft picks because our first rounders havent made any contributions yet.

[Guest]

Crawford was not a Ferry pick, was he?

[AHF]

Crawford was not a Ferry pick, was he?

 

No, he wasn't.  The midround picks do have real value, though.  Remember:  Jeff Teague, Josh Smith, Boris Diaw, etc. along with the whiffs.  

 

The Spurs have definitely shown how important those picks can be.  

 

All that said:

 

The Heat made the finals 4 consecutive years.  I don't think there is anything to overly criticize with their success.

[Diesel]

Crawford was not a Ferry pick, was he?

 

No, i started off during a comparison of our picks since 2010 (Lebron goes to Miami) but if you just want to focus on Ferry, it's the same.  We haven't developed anything greater than Miami did.

[Guest]

No, he wasn't. The midround picks do have real value, though. Remember: Jeff Teague, Josh Smith, Boris Diaw, etc. along with the whiffs.

The Spurs have definitely shown how important those picks can be.

All that said:

The Heat made the finals 4 consecutive years. I don't think there is anything to overly criticize with their success.

Ok on Crawford. The mid round picks are important, there is just not enough data on them as yet.

Jenkins had a decent 1st year now suffering with his back, Bebe - gone, Teague barely saw the floor his rookie year (10 mpg same as Dennis) now he his blossoming. This is now 6th season coming up.

Josh saw the court from the start because the team was so terrible.

[curtmcgirt]

I hate to piss on your bonfire that you're calling an inferno but I think it's misrepresented.

 

Miami's problem wasn't the lack of draft picks.

Miami's problem was that they had a Big Three.

 

Big Threes eat up capspace and are guys that you don't want to trade.  So in the end, you're going to be very good with a big three, but you have a very small window.  Most of the time, you don't have high draft picks so you're stuck with 2nd round type guys.  You're making a big deal about late draft picks?

 

OK, we had Midround draft picks... Let's count it up:

 

Jordan Crawford = ???

Jenkins = ???

Bebe = traded for Cash.

Dennis = waiting for him to be better than our #2 PG.

Payne = Let's see.

 

We make mountains out of our first round picks... when in all actuality, they have done nothing.

 

So getting a big three is a calculated risk.  For us, the flexibility is actually having players that we will trade under the right circumstances.  Not having draft picks because our first rounders havent made any contributions yet.

 

It's not that the Big 3 existed, or even how much space they took up. It's that they surrounded them with old players and no one to take the burden off the big three and towards the end LeBron. Good picks where ever you draft them, and good value young vets and that window is extended. That's where the Heat and many teams fail. They overpay for the Udonis Haslems and when their production drops you have a team that's upside down in a contract, rather than a younger player they've developed at a lower cost who will get better.

[JTB]

It's not about coming here and hating. But you guys act like the GM is doing something here that no other team is doing. You could go through every team in the NBA, and find instances of player development. Some even more significant than what we're supposedly doing.

In fact, you could've said the same thing about the Rick Sund era Hawks, in which all he did was keep the team together + add Jamal Crawford, and we made the 2nd round of the playoffs in 2 of the 5 years he was calling the shot, and never missed the playoffs.

What we need to see, is one or more of these players develop SIGNIFICANTLY to the point that they can elevate the team to that next level.

- Can Dennis develop to the point that he's not only ahead of Mack on the PG depth chart, but being a serious challenger to Teague to be the starter?

- Can Payne develop to becoming the undisputed 3rd big on the team that you have to play 20 - 25 minutes a night . . in his 1st or 2nd year in the league?

- Can Scott become a bonafide 6th man type of scorer that is in the discussion for 6th man of the year?

- Can Carroll make good on his being the "African-American Kyle Korver" comment, and shoot 40% from 3 point range?

- Most important . . . can Horford, Millsap, or Teague elevate their game to at least a borderline superstar level? ( ala what you've seen with LaMarcus Aldridge and Damian Lillard )

If people want to praise player development, that's the type of development we need to see. Not basic developmental things like "oh I get to play overseas" or "oh, I'm playing during scrub time, so I'm developing". Every team in the league can say that.

But what are we doing developmental wise, that is different from other teams . . and seeing a RAPID development in our players?

What's different is that these guys have high BBIQs and they fit the system! Not only that but we have coach bud who I believe is a phenomenal development coach.

[Guest]

It's not that the Big 3 existed, or even how much space they took up. It's that they surrounded them with old players and no one to take the burden off the big three and towards the end LeBron. Good picks where ever you draft them, and good value young vets and that window is extended. That's where the Heat and many teams fail. They overpay for the Udonis Haslems and when their production drops you have a team that's upside down in a contract, rather than a younger player they've developed at a lower cost who will get better.

Exactly this - a good example of this is the Spurs. They've surrounded their Big 3 with young guys who they've developed - Kawhi Green, Splitter, Mills then supplemented them with a smattering of veterans.

[Diesel]

It's not that the Big 3 existed, or even how much space they took up. It's that they surrounded them with old players and no one to take the burden off the big three and towards the end LeBron. Good picks where ever you draft them, and good value young vets and that window is extended. That's where the Heat and many teams fail. They overpay for the Udonis Haslems and when their production drops you have a team that's upside down in a contract, rather than a younger player they've developed at a lower cost who will get better.

 

Not exactly.  In order to get a big three, you have to start with basically nothing.  The signees that you get will be guys who are old enough to only want a ring (no money) or are not worthy of more money.   The Heat had Haslem.  But they also had Oden.  They also had Beasley, they also had Cole and Chalmers.   They were never a team that drafted young guys.   I mean, they had James Jones?

So you can't blame them for not having Young guys.  Young guys aren't really championship hungry.

You saw the same thing in Boston with their Big three.  Anytime you have a big three, you have to understand that there are some things that come with it.

[Diesel]

Exactly this - a good example of this is the Spurs. They've surrounded their Big 3 with young guys who they've developed - Kawhi Green, Splitter, Mills then supplemented them with a smattering of veterans.

 

First off, the Spurs didn't go out and get their big three.  They drafted their big three and Manu was a second rounder and Parker was a late first rounder.  That means that they came in with Salary control and the Spurs could have gotten who they wanted with them.  As they got older, they still didn't require a max salary or close because they had already bought in...  I mean, even now:

 

Parker = 12.5 Mill

Duncan = 10.3 Mill

Ginobili = 7 Mill.

 

By NBA standards, these guys are severely underpaid.  That's about 30 Million total.  They can sign who they want.

[Guest]

It's not that the Big 3 existed, or even how much space they took up. It's that they surrounded them with old players and no one to take the burden off the big three and towards the end LeBron. Good picks where ever you draft them, and good value young vets and that window is extended. That's where the Heat and many teams fail. They overpay for the Udonis Haslems and when their production drops you have a team that's upside down in a contract, rather than a younger player they've developed at a lower cost who will get better.

 

Very true.  I argued my Heat-fan BIL round and around that them keeping Haslem was part of their problem.  "But he's like a coach on the court, blah, blah, blah.  He's a mentor, blah, blah, blah."  Well make him an assistant coach and put Askew out of his misery.  Don't keep re-signing him to sit on the bench playing the role of pseudo-thug every time the Heat get into any minor "altercation"

 

Sorry, had to get that off my chest.

 

I disagree with you @Diesel that they can't have young guys and still win.  With the Big 3 structure it's imperative they you draft/develop young guys to contribute.  Like the Spurs with Leonard and guys like Green.