K Love in ATL tonight

[AHF]

Why was Chris Paul denied to the Lakers but this trade is fine?

What was the deal there?

 

The deal with the New Orleans trade is that the team didn't have an owner and was being run by the league.  The league thought the trade would be bad for New Orleans and nixed it.  The Lakers could have pulled off a trade like that with any other team in the league other than the league-controlled New Orleans and nobody could have/would have said "boo" about it.  

 

On the lottery being rigged, I am skeptical of that in light of the fact that the auditors would lose hundreds of millions of dollars if they participated in a fraud like that and they aren't being paid even a small fraction of that by the NBA.  Why would they falsify the results?

[Guest]

I think now is a good time to reemphasize a point that have been making over and over for the last 10 years. The NBA is constantly evolving. Overnight, things change dramatically and here we are again.

Who will it be next year?

Who makes the next big trade?

Who will be the next breakout star?

This is why you can't d*ck around as a middling team making incremental and lateral changes.

And it's always the same damn tired excuse why teams leapfrog us: "Oh, [insert new elite team] just got lucky. They wouldn't even be in that position if [insert thing that puts them over]. If we had just [insert excuse for losing in the 1st/2nd round] we could have [blah blah blah]."

Guess what? Nobody cares about that tired ass song. All that matters is right now. The only people that care about "if's" and "but's" are the whiners like us that don't get invited to the party.

How do we get there? It's simple. We need to stop acting like there is any other way to win in sports besides building a team around guys who are the best at what they do. It's not complicated, but we're making it complicated and prolonging the inevitable by LIMITING our options.

The kind of talent we need is drafted in the lottery - like Kevin Love who is about to net Minny two very decent young building blocks/assets. We are trying to make the playoffs every year so we are discarding an option.

Elite talent sometimes comes with some baggage. Just like the BK era, we are targeting guys that "fit" a particular vision instead of focusing on talent acquisition.

Big time moves require big time assets - lottery picks, top tier talent, former lottery picks. The only real asset we have is Al Horford. Yet, the thought of trading this guy for the last few seasons causes everybody to gasp in horror and shout "blasphemy!" Hell, we're holding onto Millsap the same damn way.

How exactly are we supposed to move the needle? Are we banking on free agency...? We can't even get players to schedule a serious meeting with us.

Danny Ferry's vision/plan is too narrowly focused. We could land a miraculous late 1st/2nd round pick or pull off a surprising trade somewhere. We could gamble on a Joe Johnson type RFA - IF they want to come here and IF they don't get matched. Any of that could turn our favor...but it's stupid to put all of our eggs in a small basket. We are not the Spurs and we don't have the luxury of being so picky.

I hear you Wretch about drafting lottery players and what they can do for a franchise. But what did having Drafted Love (and Rubio) as high lottery picks net Minny in the end on the court?

No playoffs? The chance to start over the rebuilding process again with Wiggins like they did with Love? They are no closer to a championship than the Hawks with their high lottery picks.

What Minny has done is throw Cleveland an assist.

I guess Minny is not a good example of the point you are trying to make.

[AHF]

If Wiggins balls out in Minny this will create more parity in the West while ruining it in the East. This is under the assumption that Love would have walked.

I'm not saying anything, but it's weird how much better the West always is. What's the deal?

 

This is cyclical.  I remember back when the East was similarly dominant over the West.  

 

The dynamic right now goes like this:

 

The teams in the West play more games against the West so that translates into a harder schedule.  The harder schedule results in a worse record which means a better draft pick.  If a team in the West is truly woeful, that team has an advantage over their woeful counterpart in the East.  The good news for the last year was that nobody in the West outright tanked like the Sixers, Celtics, Bucks and Magic.

 

Similarly, making the playoffs in the West is much harder than in the East.  For example, last season's Hawks were not lottery eligible because they made the playoffs.  However, 4 teams in the West were in a similar range and all added lottery picks:

 

Suns 48 wins (lottery pick)

T-Wolves 40 wins (lottery pick)

Hawks 38 wins (#15)

Nuggets 36 wins (lottery pick)

Pelicans 34 wins (lottery pick)

 

If you are a team in the middle of the pack, you at least have a shot at greatness in the West (Phoenix could have won 48 games and still ended up with Wiggins) whereas in the East you have to be truly wretched to have a chance to add a difference-making talent at  the top of the lottery.  

 

Finally, "iron sharpens iron" and the competition in the West results in teams having to reach a higher level to advance in the playoffs so they are more desperate and innovative by necessity.  A sub-playoff team in the West can shed a few guys to the East and push them up into the playoffs and "middle of the pack" status whereas that team doesn't cut it in the West so the team is forced to rebuild for a more competitive result (think 9th seed Utah ditching Sap and Jefferson and keeping their young lottery talent so they can add more elite young talent versus Atlanta and Charlotte who rode those castoffs into first-round playoff exits).

 

It will shift over time but right now I think things are aligned to keep the West in good shape.

[capstone21]

It's a conspiracy .... Too many Canadians on one team. Wiggins, Bennett and Thompson would help Canada develop chemistry for the Olympics. Has to split them up

[Guest]

It's a conspiracy .... Too many Canadians on one team. Wiggins, Bennett and Thompson would help Canada develop chemistry for the Olympics. Has to split them up

Lol - good one.

[AHF]

I hear you Wretch about drafting lottery players and what they can do for a franchise. But what did having Drafted Love (and Rubio) as high lottery picks net Minny in the end on the court?

No playoffs? The chance to start over the rebuilding process again with Wiggins like they did with Love? They are no closer to a championship than the Hawks with their high lottery picks.

What Minny has done is throw Cleveland an assist.

I guess Minny is not a good example of the point you are trying to make.

 

I agree Minny is on the lower end of the spectrum of teams and has been cited for gross mismanagement for good reason.  

 

That said, they won more games than we did last year and ended up with one of the most highly regarded prospects in years as a foundation piece for their rebuilding.  We are still hoping for a guy who turns out like Wiggins has been projected.  Minny is likely on the path to adding another elite talent this year and if they hit on those guys they will be much better positioned to become real contenders than we will be after we have added the #18 pick in next year's draft and been rejected by next season's impact FAs.

 

After we missed on Dwight and Paul, I wanted the Hawks to end up with a guy like Wiggins this year, though, so feel free to take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

[Wretch]

I hear you Wretch about drafting lottery players and what they can do for a franchise. But what did having Drafted Love (and Rubio) as high lottery picks net Minny in the end on the court?

No playoffs? The chance to start over the rebuilding process again with Wiggins like they did with Love? They are no closer to a championship than the Hawks with their high lottery picks.

What Minny has done is throw Cleveland an assist.

I guess Minny is not a good example of the point you are trying to make.

 

The part in bold.  First, it's not so much about winning a championship.  We really need to get away from that as a measuring stick. The goal is just to CONTEND...get to the final four.  Secondly, you're absolutely right in that they aren't any closer to contending and all they really have on paper is the opportunity to start over.  

 

Here is where you're logic is biased though:  Wiggins + Bennet + future 1st = Kevin Love.

 

Minnesota didn't JUST get the opportunity to start over.  Those assets netted Cleveland an All NBA/All Star Starter caliber big man.  Those assets are soon to be in Minny's possession.  

 

Moreover, who knows what their upside is or at what point they'll swap Bennett or Wiggins in the next landscape changing deal (similar to how the Clips got Paul or Boston got Ray Allen, etc)?  These guys are YOUNG and talented.  They have upside and they have tremendous value.  It may or may not equate to wins now or in the next 2-3 years...but it did equate to getting Kevin Love in Cleveland and a chance for them to contend.  

 

Toss all that though.  If what we have is so great, do we think Minny fans would swap rosters/assets with us and our "system" and "good ol' coach Bud?"  You think ANYBODY would?  What about Clevland before the trade and before LeBron came to town?  

 

Not a chance.

[WraithSentinel]

In about 8 or 9 more years Kevin Love will be eligible to become an Atlanta Hawks.

 

[Guest]

I agree Minny is on the lower end of the spectrum of teams and has been cited for gross mismanagement for good reason.

That said, they won more games than we did last year and ended up with one of the most highly regarded prospects in years as a foundation piece for their rebuilding. We are still hoping for a guy who turns out like Wiggins has been projected. Minny is likely on the path to adding another elite talent this year and if they hit on those guys they will be much better positioned to become real contenders than we will be after we have added the #18 pick in next year's draft and been rejected by next season's impact FAs.

After we missed on Dwight and Paul, I wanted the Hawks to end up with a guy like Wiggins this year, though, so feel free to take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

2 more wins - yeah!!

My point is KLove was supposed to be THAT foundation piece when he got drafted, let's add to him with another lottery piece, Rubio, let's get him a big man - Pekovic. It's now the same with getting Wiggins.

So again - what have they accomplished from the since lottery drafting Love in 2008 -40 wins maximum? it's another rebuild for them.

Don't get me wrong - I do understand we need top tier talent to be in the Championship discussion.

[Wretch]

2 more wins - yeah!!

My point is KLove was supposed to be THAT foundation piece when he got drafted, let's add to him with another lottery piece, Rubio, let's get him a big man - Pekovic. It's now the same with getting Wiggins.

So again - what have they accomplished from the since lottery drafting Love in 2008 -40 wins maximum? it's another rebuild for them.

Don't get me wrong - I do understand we need top tier talent to be in the Championship discussion.

 

Bookmarking this to toss it at you in a few years Jaybird. :D

We'll see where they are and where we are!

[Guest]

Bookmarking this to toss it at you in a few years Jaybird. :D

We'll see where they are and where we are!

I'm always up for eating some crow any which way - BBQ'd, baked, broiled, sautéed in curry - bring it on.

[EazyRoc]

Flip Flops? Isn't that the one where a bunch of people who used to be on the Real World work? I'm not sure we'd even want someone with that lame of a personality on our team.

I went there with a large group of friends a few months ago. Probably the least live club on that strip.

[AHF]

2 more wins - yeah!!

My point is KLove was supposed to be THAT foundation piece when he got drafted, let's add to him with another lottery piece, Rubio, let's get him a big man - Pekovic. It's now the same with getting Wiggins.

So again - what have they accomplished from the since lottery drafting Love in 2008 -40 wins maximum? it's another rebuild for them.

Don't get me wrong - I do understand we need top tier talent to be in the Championship discussion.

 

They did an unsuccessful job rebuilding.

 

OKC nailed their picks.  

 

Minny?  Not so much.  Let's look at their top 2 or 3 first round picks each year:

 

2009:

Pick #1 - Passed on Stephen Curry to take Ricky Rubio

Pick #2 - Passed on Demar Derozan, Taj Gibson & others to take Johny Flynn

Pick #3 - Drafted Ty Lawson (the best of the 3 PGs they drafted) and traded him before he suited up

Picks screwed up?  3 of 3.

 

Bonus Screw-up:  Drafted Nick Cathales and gave him up for a future second round pick

 

2010:

Pick #1 - Passed on Demarcus Cousins, Greg Monroe & Paul George for Wesley Johnson

Pick #2 - Passed on Eric Bledsoe & Avery Bradley for Luke Babbit

Pick #3 - Picked Trevor Booker (the best of the 3 players they drafted) and traded him before he suited up for Lazar Hayward

Picks screwed up?  3 of 3.

 

2011:

Pick #1 - Passed on Jonas Valanciunas, Klay Thompson, Brandon Knight, Kemba Walker, Kahwi Leonard for Derrick Williams

Pick #2 - Passed on Kenneth Faried, Jimmy Butler, Nikola Mirotic, and Reggie Jackson for Donatus Matiejunas

Picks screwed up?  2 of 2.

 

2012:

Pick #1 - Passed on Terence Jones, Jared Sullinger, Draymond Green, Miles Plumlee and traded pick for $16M worth of Chase Budinger (started 9 games in year 2 of 4)

Picks screwed up?  1 of 1.  (I blame them the least for this one since Budinger has had serious injuries that probably couldn't reasonably have been projected)

 

2013: 

Pick #1 - Passed on Michael Carter-Williams, Giannis, Steven Adams and others to trade for Dieng and Shabazz Muhammed.

Picks screwed up?  TBD.  This could still workout OK if Dieng really blossoms (I have little hope for Muhammed).

 

So Minnesota had their chances and whiffed, IMO.  They couldn't have been expected to nail every one of these picks but they could have been a very, very good team if they had nailed some of those picks.

 

I'd rather have a shot and miss than be in a position where I have no shot.

[Guest]

They did an unsuccessful job rebuilding.

OKC nailed their picks.

Minny? Not so much. Let's look at their top 2 or 3 first round picks each year:

2009:

Pick #1 - Passed on Stephen Curry to take Ricky Rubio

Pick #2 - Passed on Demar Derozan, Taj Gibson & others to take Johny Flynn

Pick #3 - Drafted Ty Lawson (the best of the 3 PGs they drafted) and traded him before he suited up

Picks screwed up? 3 of 3.

Bonus Screw-up: Drafted Nick Cathales and gave him up for a future second round pick

2010:

Pick #1 - Passed on Demarcus Cousins, Greg Monroe & Paul George for Wesley Johnson

Pick #2 - Passed on Eric Bledsoe & Avery Bradley for Luke Babbit

Pick #3 - Picked Trevor Booker (the best of the 3 players they drafted) and traded him before he suited up for Lazar Hayward

Picks screwed up? 3 of 3.

2011:

Pick #1 - Passed on Jonas Valanciunas, Klay Thompson, Brandon Knight, Kemba Walker, Kahwi Leonard for Derrick Williams

Pick #2 - Passed on Kenneth Faried, Jimmy Butler, Nikola Mirotic, and Reggie Jackson for Donatus Matiejunas

Picks screwed up? 2 of 2.

2012:

Pick #1 - Passed on Terence Jones, Jared Sullinger, Draymond Green, Miles Plumlee and traded pick for $16M worth of Chase Budinger (started 9 games in year 2 of 4)

Picks screwed up? 1 of 1. (I blame them the least for this one since Budinger has had serious injuries that probably couldn't reasonably have been projected)

2013:

Pick #1 - Passed on Michael Carter-Williams, Giannis, Steven Adams and others to trade for Dieng and Shabazz Muhammed.

Picks screwed up? TBD. This could still workout OK if Dieng really blossoms (I have little hope for Muhammed).

So Minnesota had their chances and whiffed, IMO. They couldn't have been expected to nail every one of these picks but they could have been a very, very good team if they had nailed some of those picks.

I'd rather have a shot and miss than be in a position where I have no shot.

Man, that looks like when we bottomed out and had top lottery picks and whiffed, smh. Edited August 7, 2014 by JayBirdHawk

[Guest]

Y'all can crown 'em Denny Green-style if you want to.  I still think us, CHI, WAS, MIA and maybe even CHA could take them in a 7-game series.  It'd go 7 with each at worst.  Neither Irving or Varajeo will make it an entire season healthy.

 

They have no depth and will be relying on too many key guys lacking playoff experience.  And don't tell me that doesn't matter.  Half of y'all spend all of last season saying the Hawks shouldn't tank because even getting swept out of the 1st round would give our guys valuable playoff experience they need since no one wins in the playoffs their first time around.

 

On top of all that they have a coach (although he's supposedly a good one) who will need to get accustomed to the NBA.

 

Ok, I'm off my soapbox now.

[IheartVolt]

The NBA is a sham! Why do we as fans even bother putting our heart and soul into this league? Why do we even commit our time when the system is rigged for favored teams? Do not try to convince me Cleveland was not handed this team with a great big fcking bow. You would have a better chance of growing new life in a jar of peanut butter then the odds working in the Caves favor the way it did. I call BS and say shame on you NBA!

[IheartVolt]

I am disgusted with this league and tired of hoping for an even playing field in this league. That is a problem cause I love the Hawks and feel caught in a no win situation

[Afro]

Y'all can crown 'em Denny Green-style if you want to. I still think us, CHI, WAS, MIA and maybe even CHA could take them in a 7-game series. It'd go 7 with each at worst. Neither Irving or Varajeo will make it an entire season healthy.

They have no depth and will be relying on too many key guys lacking playoff experience. And don't tell me that doesn't matter. Half of y'all spend all of last season saying the Hawks shouldn't tank because even getting swept out of the 1st round would give our guys valuable playoff experience they need since no one wins in the playoffs their first time around.

On top of all that they have a coach (although he's supposedly a good one) who will need to get accustomed to the NBA.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox now.

Sounds like Miami. And we all know what happened there. Eastern domination

[NJHAWK]

The Wolves are lucky getting this years number 1 pick and last years even if he did stink plus a future 1st for a guy who could leave them after next season with nothing to show for it but Dannys favorite word, flexibilty.

[Sothron]

I think now is a good time to reemphasize a point that have been making over and over for the last 10 years.  The NBA is constantly evolving.  Overnight, things change dramatically and here we are again.

 

Who will it be next year?  

Who makes the next big trade?  

Who will be the next breakout star?

 

This is why you can't d*ck around as a middling team making incremental and lateral changes.

 

And it's always the same damn tired excuse why teams leapfrog us: "Oh, [insert new elite team] just got lucky.  They wouldn't even be in that position if [insert thing that puts them over].  If we had just [insert excuse for losing in the 1st/2nd round] we could have [blah blah blah]."

 

Guess what?  Nobody cares about that tired ass song.  All that matters is right now.  The only people that care about "if's" and "but's" are the whiners like us that don't get invited to the party.  

 

How do we get there?  It's simple.  We need to stop acting like there is any other way to win in sports besides building a team around guys who are the best at what they do.  It's not complicated, but we're making it complicated and prolonging the inevitable by LIMITING our options.  

 

The kind of talent we need is drafted in the lottery - like Kevin Love who is about to net Minny two very decent young building blocks/assets.  We are trying to make the playoffs every year so we are discarding an option.

 

Elite talent sometimes comes with some baggage.  Just like the BK era, we are targeting guys that "fit" a particular vision instead of focusing on talent acquisition.

 

Big time moves require big time assets - lottery picks, top tier talent, former lottery picks.  The only real asset we have is Al Horford.  Yet, the thought of trading this guy for the last few seasons causes everybody to gasp in horror and shout "blasphemy!"  Hell, we're holding onto Millsap the same damn way.

 

How exactly are we supposed to move the needle?  Are we banking on free agency...?  We can't even get players to schedule a serious meeting with us.

 

Danny Ferry's vision/plan is too narrowly focused.  We could land a miraculous late 1st/2nd round pick or pull off a surprising trade somewhere.  We could gamble on a Joe Johnson type RFA - IF they want to come here and IF they don't get matched.  Any of that could turn our favor...but it's stupid to put all of our eggs in a small basket.  We are not the Spurs and we don't have the luxury of being so picky.

I can't like this post enough. I feel like there's a handful of posters on this site that actually appreciate that you need STAR PLAYERS to win a title and doing anything less to get them is literally the worst position you can be in the NBA. Treadmills are evil. And yet most of the posters on this board are seemingly fine with never reaching for the stars. It just makes me sad. Honestly sad.