How many honestly think we make it past the 1st with this roster?

[Guest]

Ha, he got me once.  Usually I'm all ...

Instead you got this...

 

You never saw it coming.

[High5]

Why are we not holding DF accountable to THAT standard?  Until he puts together a squad that can escape the 2nd round, he will not have accomplished anything beyond ANY former Hawks GM.  1st and 2nd round appearances and 40-50 win seasons?  Been there and done that.

 

Who isn't holding Ferry to that standard? The difference is some of us don't expect miracles. It's been TWO years. He got rid of our albatrosses in year one and then his best player missed year two. I'm not saying Ferry is ever going to get us to the promised land and he may never even build a team that makes it out of the 2nd round, but it's still too early to act like he's the worst GM on the planet. I don't know how you guys have made it so many years as Hawks fans with such unrealistic expectations. 

[Guest]

Who isn't holding Ferry to that standard? The difference is some of us don't expect miracles. It's been TWO years. He got rid of our albatrosses in year one and then his best player missed year two. I'm not saying Ferry is ever going to get us to the promised land and he may never even build a team that makes it out of the 2nd round, but it's still too early to act like he's the worst GM on the planet. I don't know how you guys have made it so many years as Hawks fans with such unrealistic expectations. 

 

It's not a miracle to ask the GM not to waste 1st round picks.  I don't consider it a miracle to ask the GM to think outside the 'system' box.

 

It's not too early if you're of the opinion that he's making mistakes along the way.  As long as Billy King has a job, Ferry won't be the worst GM on the planet so he's safe there.

[Guest]

On your assumptions regarding our "core beliefs":

1) I don't believe that a "superstar" will never come to play for Atlanta. I just believe that they have 100% control over where they play. That being said, they typically choose the situation that gives them the best shot at *contending and they choose the best fit. They don't see us as either.

2) Let's call "anything of importance" getting to the ECF's and beyond. To do that this year, we will have to defeat one of Chicago or Cleveland. But there has always been and there will always be a Bulls/Cavs, Heat/Pacers, Knicks/Bulls, Magic/Celtics, etc. We have to beat those teams to get there and we're not doing that without a certain kind of player. History doesn't support an argument otherwise.

People like to say, "Oh, but there aren't but a few of those kinds of players in the NBA..."

To that I would only respond...

To answer your follow up questions:

1) Our problem is this:

We have built a reputation for peaking at the 1st/2nd round. That is not Danny Ferry's fault. However, we are kidding ourselves if we think we change that without elite talent. If Danny Ferry doesn't do something about it, then he is at fault for PERPETUATING the status-quo. He is the GM after all.

From the moment he signed Lou Williams, I've been skeptical. The problem is, he has severely limited our options with this plan. Players have to "fit", we have to main our playoff spot, and Horford/Millsap are sacred cows. That sort of narrowly focused vision coupled with a severe lack of free agent interest is begging for failure (or sustained mediocrity). It's almost as bad as BK's all 6'8" vision. The saving grace for DF is that MAYBE a free agent miracle can fall out of the sky. Though I'm not holding my breath.

2) I've been a fan for almost 30 years. It's been very difficult for me to remain positive through Ferry's tenure. Probably the most difficult when I think about it. The disheartening part is knowing that Danny Ferry has a long ways to go before he can catch up with the success of Billy Knight, Pete Babcock, and Rick Sund/ASG.

Think about that for a second and forgive me if I don't jump for joy simply because we look better doing the exact same dance we've done for 20 years.

Dude is that Nicholas Cage? That's creepy.

[Wretch]

Who isn't holding Ferry to that standard? The difference is some of us don't expect miracles. It's been TWO years. He got rid of our albatrosses in year one and then his best player missed year two. I'm not saying Ferry is ever going to get us to the promised land and he may never even build a team that makes it out of the 2nd round, but it's still too early to act like he's the worst GM on the planet. I don't know how you guys have made it so many years as Hawks fans with such unrealistic expectations. 

 

First things first...  I have sat and watched this team accomplish "success" for 30 years.  I have watched it lead to the perception that we are a dull and irrelevant franchise.  With patience, 100% support, and nothing but positivity.  I have always been that guy with players, coaches, and management.  Even during the BK era, I reserved judgement for many years - so please don't presume to lump me in with knee-jerk haters.

 

That being said, this team has already seen the kind of success that everyone around here gushes over.  We have won 50+ games in the past and we've won games in the 2nd round of the playoffs, most recently under the fumbling direction of Billy Knight.  I'm not going to get excited over sub .500 record, in a terrible conference, leading to a 1st round loss.  

 

I'm not jumping the gun on Danny Ferry.  I'm not saying that he is the worst GM in Hawks history and in all likelihood he won't be.   I'm assuming only that he intends to keep us in the playoff hunt and the he is being selective in what kind of player he wants on the roster.  That in itself, leads to a very likely set of conclusions.  Which is ironic...because it's pretty unrealistic to expect significant change without moving Horford, without lottery picks to groom/trade, and with a severe lack of free agent interest.

 

Significant change is what we need if we want to crown Ferry a success.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Wretch

[Guest]

Instead you got this...

You never saw it coming.

I coulda used that gif to @kg01 during draft night lol. Mama said knock you out!!!

[Guest]

Dude is that Nicholas Cage? That's creepy.

 

 

I coulda used that gif to @kg01 during draft night lol. Mama said knock you out!!!

 

[Guest]

Yikes!!!! Aaahhhhhh that's creepy bro lol

[High5]

It's not a miracle to ask the GM not to waste 1st round picks.  I don't consider it a miracle to ask the GM to think outside the 'system' box.

 

It's not too early if you're of the opinion that he's making mistakes along the way.  As long as Billy King has a job, Ferry won't be the worst GM on the planet so he's safe there.

 

It would have been a miracle to get this team into the ECF with Joe/Josh leading the way (we tried that for years) and it certainly would have been a miracle with Horford injured (still almost beat the #1 seed). I guess if we drafted Dieng or one of the Plumlee brothers they would have gotten us there? I doubt it. 

 

If you're trying to get rid of every GM that makes mistakes then there won't be any GMs left. 

[macdaddy]

I've always been optimistic but I can honestly say I'm much more so now with Ferry/Bud than at anytime in the last decade.   Frankly I'm surprised that others aren't.  

 

With BK/Woody our offense was terrible.   We won a lot of games against lesser teams because we had some good starters who were in their prime, but we were exposed horribly against better teams almost everytime we played them and especially in the playoffs.   

 

With Drew we took a step in the right direction and had an offensive game plan, but Sund overpaid our main guys and filled the bench with washed up vets and d-leaguers.   So we didn't have enough talent to do anything.

 

All those problems are gone.   We have quality guys, in their prime starting and off the bench.  We have up and coming young guys waiting in the wings.   We have better coaching than we've seen here in decades (when was the last time we had so many players praising the coaching staff?  when have we ever brought in guys and seen them have career boosts the way dmc/korver/mack/millsap have?)

 

So you can't convince me that this is the same.   If you just want to look and say well it was a 1st round exit again then that's your prerogative, but it's not just me that sees a world of difference.  The media has noticed in a way they haven't before.   But the proof is on the court.   Let's get this thing going already. 

[Guest]

It would have been a miracle to get this team into the ECF with Joe/Josh leading the way (we tried that for years) and it certainly would have been a miracle with Horford injured (still almost beat the #1 seed). I guess if we drafted Dieng or one of the Plumlee brothers they would have gotten us there? I doubt it. 

 

If you're trying to get rid of every GM that makes mistakes then there won't be any GMs left. 

I could probably make a pretty strong argument that the Joe/Josh/Horf/Crawf squad could've made it under Budz.

 

It's not necessarily a mistake here or there that's the problem.  I think he has a flawed philosophy which leads to constant mistakes.

[High5]

I could probably make a pretty strong argument that the Joe/Josh/Horf/Crawf squad could've made it under Budz.

 

It's not necessarily a mistake here or there that's the problem.  I think he has a flawed philosophy which leads to constant mistakes.

 

Maybe if you go back in time when those four were together and healthy and magically put Bud in control. But not in 2014. 

[HawkItus]

And back to the supestar/tanking argument

 

[Guest]

I could probably make a pretty strong argument that the Joe/Josh/Horf/Crawf squad could've made it under Budz.

It's not necessarily a mistake here or there that's the problem. I think he has a flawed philosophy which leads to constant mistakes.

What do you see as these 'constant mistakes?'

[ViperXX79]

I should have quoted for reference.   A bunch of folks liked this post:

 

 

 

Maybe it's stated the wrong way but it seems there is a belief that we can't get a superstar (since it says that).   So if we are going to take that as a truth (for the sake of argument) then hell yeah i'm going to believe that we can do it another way.   Rather than just sitting back with a defeatist attitude.

 

Our current regime(and the last one) doesn't believe in tanking so that's why I believe we'll never get superstars to come here under Ferry.  Free agents aren't coming and you have to have assets to trade for superstars.  Assets being lottery picks.  And even if we did have a lottery pick Ferry's track record with our 1st picks so far have produced mediocre results so far.  So we are completely taking ourselves out of two of the three means of acquiring great talents and the only other option is one that is a pipe dream.  It's truly sad that our team is perfectly content with being on a treadmill.  It's not being a defeatist.  It's being a realist.  Doesn't mean I'm any less of a fan.  I just don't expect miracles.

[ViperXX79]

So you can't convince me that this is the same.   If you just want to look and say well it was a 1st round exit again then that's your prerogative, but it's not just me that sees a world of difference.  The media has noticed in a way they haven't before.   But the proof is on the court.   Let's get this thing going already. 

 

But this is the problem.  You say the proof is on the court and the team has produced the same exact results for the better part of a decade.  How many more years of 1st round exits have to occur before the franchise decides it's actually time to tear the treadmill down and figure out a way to actually get better results?  The names on the jerseys and the coaching staff seem to change but the results don't.  Seems to me there's clearly a missing piece and we aren't willing to take the necessary steps to obtain it.

[macdaddy]

But this is the problem.  You say the proof is on the court and the team has produced the same exact results for the better part of a decade.  How many more years of 1st round exits have to occur before the franchise decides it's actually time to tear the treadmill down and figure out a way to actually get better results?  The names on the jerseys and the coaching staff seem to change but the results don't.  Seems to me there's clearly a missing piece and we aren't willing to take the necessary steps to obtain it.

 

Because it's details that matter.   Not all first round exits or second round exits are equal.   Look at the Bulls, Rockets, Clippers, Warriors.   They are first round, second round exits for the last 3 years.  If that's the only factor you take in consideration then they should be tanking right?    

 

Last year was year one of Ferry/Bud.   A first round exit last year was not the same as the first round exit in year eight of the Woody/Drew/Joe/Josh era.

[Wretch]

Because it's details that matter.   Not all first round exits or second round exits are equal.   Look at the Bulls, Rockets, Clippers, Warriors.   They are first round, second round exits for the last 3 years.  If that's the only factor you take in consideration then they should be tanking right?    

 

Last year was year one of Ferry/Bud.   A first round exit last year was not the same as the first round exit in year eight of the Woody/Drew/Joe/Josh era.

 

First, we are a combined 6-21 against those teams over the past 3 seasons.  Call me crazy, but I think these teams might be just a little better than we are.  Which would imply that they are in a different point in their team building cycle...as in much closer to contending than we are.  Especially Chicago who, without their All-NBA caliber player the past couple of seasons no less, is 9-2 against us.

 

More importantly, each of these teams features All-NBA quality talent.  With the exception of Golden State, each of those teams has TWO current or former All NBA starters.  To put it bluntly, what the f#$k would they be tanking for?  They don't need a lottery pick because they've already got elite talent - the same kind of players we are sitting around and hoping will fall into our "perfect" little nest.

 

Also, three of those teams play in the West (whom we were 10-20 against last year, BTW).  If either played in the East, they'd have likely been one of the top seeds and torched their 1st round opponent.

 

Lastly, of course the exit isn't the same.  Different players, coaches, roles...almost everything has changed.  A first round loss at the end of an era vs. beginning of an era is obviously not the same.  These are two different teams.  However, as the 1st and 2nd round losses pile up, the status-quo for the FRANCHISE will remain unchanged.

 

And as @ViperXX79 has outlined, and many of us have said over and over, we're painting ourselves into a corner with our strategy.  Given our free agent woes and our trade options, we don't have the luxury of ignoring ANY method of talent acquisition - let alone a method that has proven time and time again to lead to the acquisition of elite talent.

(And please note that I said nothing about championships in that last sentence)

[Vol4ever]

Its pretty simple as Wretch, Viper, Northcyde, and myself/others have pointed out, we just dont have the talent to compete past the first round.  Drink all the Ferry kool-aid you want, the bottom line is the bottom line.   Bud is the one part of this that is a positive but if he isnt given top talent he will be walking at the end of his contract.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Vol4ever

[mtnbayou]

Let's see. We took the 1 seed to 7 games last year (should have won) WITHOUT Horford. We will be better all around this year. In the Eastern Conference?? Where does this lack of optimism come from?