The Dilemma.

[Diesel]

IF you can fire Ferry and keep Bud and know that Bud will stay throughout his contract and bring in a GM that will not fire Bud but would work with Bud..

 

Would you be for Firing Ferry?

 

I think that some who is against Firing Ferry is really against it because of Spurs East.

Ferry sold the dream of Spurs East to some of us and we've bitten down really hard.  Even though we didn't win that many last year.  We didn't make major gains in the post season.  And our coach made us look good on National TV with a gimmicky offense.

 

In the meanwhile, it's hard to believe that Ferry hasn't lost his credibility in the league.  I believe that he has and that he has always had a reputation of being a very smart but aloof GM..  Now... that elitism will work 1000 time against us.

 

Raise your hands if your defense of Ferry is predicated on Spurs East.

[OldTimeHawk]

after seeing Woodys offensive offense, and his successor Larry " but Im a players coach" Drew  I am forever indebted to Ferry for bringing a coach in that actually has an offensive game plan other than  an ISO JOE  type offense.  I am thankful for him ridding us of the albatross of a contract  that was Joe Johnson . I am forever greatful for him not falling for the Josh " but hes got so much potential " Smith  trap.

 

I dont get this elitism tag - he brings no nonsense and accountability to the team. He brings in players that know there role and dont get petulant  and shot 3 pointers at will because their coach and GM coddle them . He brings in a system that yes is modeled after the Spurs - hell he lured a credible coach form the Spurs that would have probably been in line for the job after Pops left. He cleared roster losers ( Marvin Williams , Josh Smith , ) and guys with low upside ( love him but Sasha had to go )  for guys that fit.

 

 Yes it would be nice to have a superstar talent, but how many of those guys are in the league ?? Besides , look into what he has to change - we have disfunctional ownership  BUT we finally had a good owner and GM that werent hamstrung by behind the scenes power playing bs.  We have a lockerroom culture that either couldnt or wouldnt stand up and call guys out that were f'ing up . Ferry has started the process of changing that culture.  Did anyone really think we would turn into the Spurs overnight ?? I think we are pointing in the right direction.

 

But again what is this elitism tag ?? Seems like code for something else .

[Diesel]

after seeing Woodys offensive offense, and his successor Larry " but Im a players coach" Drew  I am forever indebted to Ferry for bringing a coach in that actually has an offensive game plan other than  an ISO JOE  type offense.  I am thankful for him ridding us of the albatross of a contract  that was Joe Johnson . I am forever greatful for him not falling for the Josh " but hes got so much potential " Smith  trap.

 

I dont get this elitism tag - he brings no nonsense and accountability to the team. He brings in players that know there role and dont get petulant  and shot 3 pointers at will because their coach and GM coddle them . He brings in a system that yes is modeled after the Spurs - hell he lured a credible coach form the Spurs that would have probably been in line for the job after Pops left. He cleared roster losers ( Marvin Williams , Josh Smith , ) and guys with low upside ( love him but Sasha had to go )  for guys that fit.

 

 Yes it would be nice to have a superstar talent, but how many of those guys are in the league ?? Besides , look into what he has to change - we have disfunctional ownership  BUT we finally had a good owner and GM that werent hamstrung by behind the scenes power playing bs.  We have a lockerroom culture that either couldnt or wouldnt stand up and call guys out that were f'ing up . Ferry has started the process of changing that culture.  Did anyone really think we would turn into the Spurs overnight ?? I think we are pointing in the right direction.

 

But again what is this elitism tag ?? Seems like code for something else .

 

Elitist is how he operates. It's a Duke Thing.  The thought that you're superior to everyone around you. You claimed that he's no nonesense and accountability.  Sorry, that's the description for Pop.  At the same time, Pop doesn't look down his nose at any player at any time.  Ferry on the otherhand has.  It was never intended to be code for racist... and I don't think that Ferry is racist but elitist becomes racist when you put  racial overtones into the mix.  So his actions of recent times have made you have to stop and think...

[OldTimeHawk]

so what are some documented examples of this elitism that has kept him from performing  as GM ?? Again  I dont hear any NBA players say that they dont want to play in Atlanta because Ferry is Elitist - What I heard just yesterday from Korver convinced me other players dont share this line of thinking - specifically Kyle Korver who basically said he had heard of the problems in the Hawks organization and didnt want to come here - BUT after being here a year AND after having other offers came back because he liked what Ferry was doing and wanted to be a part of it .

[JETSET]

Ferry needs to stay. Just look at what kyle said. Ferrys dismissal is guaranteed to have a negative impact on our team and will set us back. Yet, here we are, with "fans" of the team begging for his dismissal.

[kerrypack]

depends on the new owner.  bud probably more important than ferry?

[Admin]

so what are some documented examples of this elitism that has kept him from performing as GM ?? Again I dont hear any NBA players say that they dont want to play in Atlanta because Ferry is Elitist - What I heard just yesterday from Korver convinced me other players dont share this line of thinking - specifically Kyle Korver who basically said he had heard of the problems in the Hawks organization and didnt want to come here - BUT after being here a year AND after having other offers came back because he liked what Ferry was doing and wanted to be a part of it .

This is just one of those Diesel-isms that make me scratch my head.

Ferry comes off as a humble and boring guy IMO. Sure he clearly values substance over flash, which is why he signs guys like Sap and Thabo, but that hardly makes him an elitist.

[DrReality]

Makes me scratch my ass. 

[Wretch]

I am a veteran of the military.  I grew up a military brat...on post and later in a mixed neighborhood, in a military town.  My father was a drill sergeant.  I've spent the past 20+ working for corporate America.  I've also been married for 20 to a Caucasian woman and this is has been my position on racism since I was a teenager:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2d2SzRZvsQ

 

I think conversations about race are the dumbest and most useless conversations humans can have.   I don't "hate" Ferry because he's white or racist and I don't care how black or white Phillips Arena is.  For me, this is about basketball and nothing else.

 

I don't like elitists because they are stuck up, narrow-minded, and inflexible.  

 

They believe they are smarter and more capable than anyone else and that their way is the best way and the ONLY way.  Elitists live in a perfect bubble without any regard for outside counsel (unless talking to other elitists).  People like Ferry are good at what they do, but are often out of touch with things outside of their narrow field of vision.  When an elitist latches onto a terrible assumption, they will chase it to the end and that is a recipe for complete disaster.

 

We need an elite talent, but Ferry chose a plan that leans on the most ridiculous odds for us to get it.  

 

Free agency?  Really?  

Trades when Horford/Sap are not on the table?  

Draft?  When picks outside the lottery have about a 2-3% return rate?  

 

Anything could happen, but for me this is just not a good plan.  The odds are terrible and it's not a wise direction to take us in.  

 

His performance as GM is not impressive to me.

 

The JJ trade was not a masterpiece.  There had to exist FIRST a willing trade partner.  Ferry didn't scour the globe, run a series of scenarios through a super computer, or haggle his way into a brilliant deal.  We caught a break and he dumped Joe's salary.  I was happy about it, but not impressed.  It's a no-brainer move that any GM would have pounced on.

 

Everything else has been standard fare.  We traded Marvin for an expiring.  He let Josh walk, for nothing.  He matched Teague's offer sheet.  We signed Sap.  We've been ousted in the first round of the  playoffs for two years and posted 38 wins in the weakest EC setting that I've seen in 30 years.  It's not terrible, but it's not particularly praiseworthy.  We got Bud and we got the rights to swap picks with Brooklyn (which could have worked out AMAZINGLY well) - credit him for that.  All totaled, his grade is "I" for incomplete at best, solid B- at worst.  Certainly not deserving of the golden seal of approval he has on everything.

 

That is my first problem with Danny Ferry.  My second is that he is an extension of Bruce Levenson.  You cannot make a separation between the two.  They are not linked by "racist" comments.  They are linked by the culture at the top that our front office has admitted requires cleansing.  

 

Bruce had a vision for the team and he brought in Danny Ferry.  Are you guys just not understanding this?   Oblivious to the real cause of fan disinterest, Levenson figured all we had to do was add some cream to the coffee and viola! instant appreciation for the Hawks!  Danny Ferry was hired to supplement that vision with a product on the floor that would appeal to Levenson's target market.  

 

...and thus, Spurs East is born inside of an elitist's perfect bubble, with no regard for what the city really wants or what the franchise really needs.  Please don't try to separate Ferry from Levenso's vision...for the last time, that ridiculous E-mail was sent TO him and the conversation was kept in a small, elite circle.

[Diesel]

Wretch, the more interesting thing about the JJ trade is that he traded JJ to his Childhood friend Billy King.

And Couldn't get his friend to give him more than just a swap on picks.

King described it as a conversation between friends and Ferry mentioned maybe wanting to trade JJ.  In other words, this wasn't even Ferry's plan.  King got JJ for one reason.. to make Deron stay.  IN other words, King saw the value of Joe as a FA draw.

But that's off topic.  The real topic is as you have stated.. Ferry's plan as a GM.

[Wretch]

Wretch, the more interesting thing about the JJ trade is that he traded JJ to his Childhood friend Billy King.

And Couldn't get his friend to give him more than just a swap on picks.

King described it as a conversation between friends and Ferry mentioned maybe wanting to trade JJ.  In other words, this wasn't even Ferry's plan.  King got JJ for one reason.. to make Deron stay.  IN other words, King saw the value of Joe as a FA draw.

But that's off topic.  The real topic is as you have stated.. Ferry's plan as a GM.

Folks just conveniently forget the context around this trade.  Brooklyn was desperate to keep Williams, they had a new arena, new city, new owner, new look...and old friends/teammates talked a deal out.  For once, the stars and moons aligned for us.  Give him credit, but only so much.  We caught a break.  

 

If you bring the merits of that deal down to a more reasonable level, there's really not a lot to get excited over with Ferry.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The fans were absolutely convinced that JJ was an untradeable contract.   The problem with that thought, was that JJ, while not a top 10 player, was easily still a top 25 player in the league.  That meant if a team wanted to shake up things on the court, or add a name player to sell a few tickets, a JJ trade could've been made.

 

When he traded him right away for those scrubs, and got virtually nothing back in return, I knew we were going to be in trouble for the near future.  But the fan base was so giddy that Ferry traded both JJ and Marvin within a week, that they were ready to erect a statue of him outside of Philips.

 

People have always scoffed at this notion, but I always believed that a team like the Lakers would be in play for JJ's services before his contract was up.  And when all of that drama was going down between D'Antoni, Howard, and Gasol, THAT would've been the perfect time to approach LA about a JJ for Pau Gasol trade.   And regardless of what people say around here, I think the Lakers would've listened . . and listened HARD to that.

 

Like you say Diesel and Wretch, he basically made a deal with a childhood friend who was desperate to re-sign Deron, since he was losing in the Dwight Howard chase.   King had to do SOMETHING to sell a bad Nets fan base to the Brooklyn audience.   JJ was the piece used to lure Deron back to Brooklyn.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Ferry's main free agent signings . . ( excluding guys who were re-signed by the team )

 

- Lou Williams

- Shelvin Mack

- Paul Millsap

- DeMarre Carroll

- Pero Antić

- Elton Brand

- Thabo Sefolosha

- Kent Bazemore ( who still isn't officially signed yet )

 

Korver was acquired via a trade exception.

 

Starters are in Bold

 

 

 

That's what people are celebrating folks.

[capstone21]

Folks just conveniently forget the context around this trade.  Brooklyn was desperate to keep Williams, they had a new arena, new city, new owner, new look...and old friends/teammates talked a deal out.  For once, the stars and moons aligned for us.  Give him credit, but only so much.  We caught a break.  

 

If you bring the merits of that deal down to a more reasonable level, there's really not a lot to get excited over with Ferry.

The JJ trade was an absolute steal for us.  He didn't get quality players back but he got us out of his contract ... 23 this year ... almost 25 next season and gave the team flexibilty.   I have often read how people could not believe that he pulled that off.

[tonegully]

The JJ trade was an absolute steal for us.  He didn't get quality players back but he got us out of his contract ... 23 this year ... almost 25 next season and gave the team flexibilty.   I have often read how people could not believe that he pulled that off.

Exactly. JJ may be a top 20 player but he definately is not a 20 million dollar player. I like how people are acting like this was some simple trade.

[Guest]

Exactly. JJ may be a top 20 player but he definately is not a 20 million dollar player. I like how people are acting like this was some simple trade.

 

Lol, it kinda was.  Brooklyn needed to make a splash and didn't care about the money.  King and Ferry were boys.  Where's the complex part?

 

I think you and I disagree about everything, but you're a Hawks fan so you're still cool with me. 

[Wretch]

The JJ trade was an absolute steal for us.  He didn't get quality players back but he got us out of his contract ... 23 this year ... almost 25 next season and gave the team flexibilty.   I have often read how people could not believe that he pulled that off.

Exactly. JJ may be a top 20 player but he definately is not a 20 million dollar player. I like how people are acting like this was some simple trade.

 

You guys are talking about the value of the trade.  

I'm talking about the vision/courage/work/intelligence/scouting (you know, the things define a good GM) that it takes to make the trade happen in the first place.  

 

What GM in their right mind would not dump JJ if the opportunity presented itself?  There was zero risk on our end.  No homework to be done.  Nothing to negotiate really.  This was a no-brainer.  If someone agrees to take on your albatross...you do it.  It's awesome that we got the rights to swap picks but otherwise, there's nothing to validate Ferry's skills as a GM here.

 

We caught a break.  

Lol, it kinda was.  Brooklyn needed to make a splash and didn't care about the money.  King and Ferry were boys.  Where's the complex part?

 

I think you and I disagree about everything, but you're a Hawks fan so you're still cool with me. 

 

Seriously. lol

[TheNorthCydeRises]

so what are some documented examples of this elitism that has kept him from performing  as GM ?? Again  I dont hear any NBA players say that they dont want to play in Atlanta because Ferry is Elitist - What I heard just yesterday from Korver convinced me other players dont share this line of thinking - specifically Kyle Korver who basically said he had heard of the problems in the Hawks organization and didnt want to come here - BUT after being here a year AND after having other offers came back because he liked what Ferry was doing and wanted to be a part of it .

I think the way the Hawks handled Jeff Teague is a perfect example of how he operates. Let Teague tell it, Ferry had no contact whatsoever with him. No contract negotiations. No new offers. No telling him to "find his own deal". Nothing.

Then when Milwaukee gives him an offer sheet, Teague flat out said that he hopes the Hawks don't match it and told Ferry that he was ready to move on. He even said that Ferry really didn't build a relationship with him.

Ferry finally matches the offer on Day 3

.. late in day 3.

[OldTimeHawk]

he had me when he didnt resign Josh Smith ....

[TheFuzz]

I'll bump in and say this:

 

We got a pick and a couple of swaps for JJ, but we also got the trade exception used on Korver (I'm pretty sure), in addition to some cap used to bring in other players. It wasn't just a pick. Not sure where the elitism thing comes from. When it comes to purely basketball reasons, I am sad to see Ferry go.

 

Edit: The potential off-the-court issues makes it much easier to swallow, though. If we have trouble bringing in FAs because of ish like this then I'm glad Ferry is gone

Edited September 16, 2014 by TheFuzz