Over grading the work of Ferry.

[JETSET]

And Babcock brought in Lenny. And Kasten..Fratello.... Anyway....

 

 

I don't mention coaches because I don't know what GMs have to work with.  I mean, BK couldn't fire Woodson.. and Sund Fired Woodson and hired LD?  Were we running the team on the cheap?  I think so.  We were still paying out way out of debt during the BK/Sund years.

I will take Bud over any of them without blinking an eye

[Guest]

I will take Bud over any of them without blinking an eye

 

I love Budz but he hasn't accomplished as much as those two guys did in a much better East.

[JETSET]

I love Budz but he hasn't accomplished as much as those two guys did in a much better East.

Well of course he hasn't. Hes coached one year and half the team was injured.

[Guest]

Well of course he hasn't. Hes coached one year and half the team was injured.

 

So why crap on Fratello/Lenny?  Budz is an incomplete at this point and that's not a knock.

[Diesel]

Well of course he hasn't. Hes coached one year and half the team was injured.

 

IF you're taking Bud, what's the basis?  Definitely not wins?  Definitely not team competitiveness?  Right now, Bud has a hall pass because of injury but everybody wants to make him King...  Let's just leave it at what it is and wait and see.

[Wretch]

IF you're taking Bud, what's the basis?  Definitely not wins?  Definitely not team competitiveness?  Right now, Bud has a hall pass because of injury but everybody wants to make him King...  Let's just leave it at what it is and wait and see.

 

It's the Ferry Madness dude!  Don't you know?  Everything that dude touches is GOLD. lol  

In 17 or so years of discussing the Hawks online, I have never seen anything like this......  Dude, he hasn't reached Babcock's or BK's level of success, but people seriously consider him the greatest  Hawks GM of all time.   Even above Stan Kasten: 

 

During his lengthy tenure in the Hawks' front office, Kasten became the first (and so far the only) NBA executive to win back-to-back NBA EXECUTIVE OF THE YEAR awards, accomplishing this feat in 1986 & 1987. He was also able to build Atlanta into a perennial playoff contender. Led by the Hall of Fame play of superstar Dominique Wilkins, Kasten's Hawks achieved four straight 50-win seasons (1986 to 1989) and set franchise records in attendance. In the 1990s, he guided Atlanta to a stretch of 7 consecutive playoff appearances, including three 50-win seasons during the decade.

 

...and comparing Bud, who has literally just gotten started, to the distinguished careers of Lenny Wilkins and Mike Fratello, two HIGHLY respected coaches?  Folks around here just toss them out there like we're talking about Bob Weiss or Lon Kruger.  I mean, I love Bud too and Ferry has done an OK job....but what in the ACTUAL f#ck man? 

 

 

[JETSET]

Both Fratello and Wilkins were very good coaches and I don't mean to diss them.  I would just pick Bud if I had the choice of the 3 and I figured I would use Diesel's method of making extreme statements to do so.

 

My opinions on Ferry are more accurate than all of your constant negative opinions no matter what happens.  I know he's not perfect. I also know that this franchise will be taking a big step back if we cut him loose. 

 

The difference between me and all of you is I only have one agenda and that is winning.  I feel like Ferry/Bud give us the best chance to do so, currently, and I will continue to back both of them until something happens that makes me think otherwise.

Edited October 20, 2014 by JETSET

[Guest]

Both Fratello and Wilkins were very good coaches and I don't mean to diss them.  I would just pick Bud if I had the choice of the 3 and I figured I would use Diesel's method of making extreme statements to do so.

 

My opinions on Ferry are more accurate than all of your constant negative opinions no matter what happens.  I know he's not perfect. I also know that this franchise will be taking a big step back if we cut him loose. 

 

The difference between me and all of you is I only have one agenda and that is winning.  I feel like Ferry/Bud give us the best chance to do so, currently, and I will continue to back both of them until something happens that makes me think otherwise.

 

Hey, nothing wrong with you having your preference and opinion.  One thing that makes the board great is all of us have distinct opinions and are allowed to express them.

 

I'd venture to say if you picked Budz and I picked Fratello or Lenny, I'd win in a series hands down if they had comparably talented teams.  Remember Lenny is in the HOF as a coach (and player) and has won a title as a head man.

[Wretch]

Both Fratello and Wilkins were very good coaches and I don't mean to diss them.  I would just pick Bud if I had the choice of the 3 and I figured I would use Diesel's method of making extreme statements to do so.

 

My opinion on Ferry are more accurate than all of your constant negative opinions no matter what happens.  I know he's not perfect. I also know that this franchise will be taking a big step back if we cut him loose. 

 

The difference between me and all of you is I only have one agenda and that is winning.  I feel like Ferry/Bud give us the best chance to do so, currently, and I will continue to back both of them until something happens that makes me think otherwise.

 

The fact that you would pick a guy with one year of HC experience over those two tells me that we will have to agree to disagree on that.  Not in a million years can you justify that to me...lol

 

You OPINION isn't any more accurate than mine, no matter how loudly you say it or how much you repeat it.  Your ASSUMPTION of my opinion is far more INACCURATE than mine is of yours however.

 

First of all, you assume that I hate Ferry and that I think he's a terrible GM.  The truth is, I've said very few negative things about him. In fact, let's list what Wretch has ACTUALLY said about Ferry...

 

Joe Johnson deal - Smart move, but extremely lucky to have found a buyer.  Let's say that JJ is 30-40% overpaid.  That's like being upside down on a $100,000 property by $35,000.  Good homes in your neighborhood are going for 90k to 110k tops...how do you get rid of a $135,000 home?  You luck up and find a buyer that's how.  Right vision, right place, right time, good friend = miraculous JJ deal.  I cannot give Ferry too much credit here, but he gets credit.

 

Marvin deal - Really nice.  I dig Devin Harris.

Drafts - For where we are picking, Ferry has done a decent job.

Resigning Teague - Wait and match?  Not rocket science, but at least he matched him.  Good job Ferry.

Mike Budenholzer - AWESOME and impressive move.  Even if Bud turns out not so good, to have pulled such a highly coveted talent away from San Antonio earns an A+ in my book.

Paul Millsap - GREAT signing.  Sap is honestly my kind of player.  I knew from day one that I would like him.

Kyle Korver - Retained probably the most coveted 3pt marksman in the league.  KK could have easily bolted for a championship situation.  Good job Ferry and team for selling the vision and retaining his services.

Putting us into position to sign both CP3 and Howard - AWESOME. JOB.

Cap flexibility - can't knock it

 

Where's all my Ferry hate?  See?  I understand you very well.  I understand the pro-Ferry crowd VERY well.  The pro-Ferry crowd doesn't understand the anti-Ferry crowd at all.  That's because you guys are rushing to judgement and don't see the bigger/long term picture. You're also ignoring a boatload of facts and odds that don't bode well for us.  Where I disagree with Ferry (which as been beat beyond death by now) is that I don't believe we can compete at the top of the League with this roster and I don't see how we can add the right kind of player(s) to do so.  Obtaining top tier talent is our highest priority, not remaining competitive - and in doing so, we are sacrificing the future.  I don't believe that we can do both at the same time (stay competitive and acquire top tier talent).

 

So I don't agree with his overall vision and when you don't agree overall...well, then you're just a "hater."  

 

Being critical of a GM's performance =/= hater.

 

The things Ferry have done are GOOD.  He's done a decent job - but he hasn't won a playoff series and we haven't won 50 games in a season.  He hasn't earned the "golden seal of approval" that everyone has given him.

[JETSET]

The fact that you would pick a guy with one year of HC experience over those two tells me that we will have to agree to disagree on that.  Not in a million years can you justify that to me...lol

 

You OPINION isn't any more accurate than mine, no matter how loudly you say it or how much you repeat it.  Your ASSUMPTION of my opinion is far more INACCURATE than mine is of yours however.

 

First of all, you assume that I hate Ferry and that I think he's a terrible GM.  The truth is, I've said very few negative things about him. In fact, let's list what Wretch has ACTUALLY said about Ferry...

 

Joe Johnson deal - Smart move, but extremely lucky to have found a buyer.  Let's say that JJ is 30-40% overpaid.  That's like being upside down on a $100,000 property by $35,000.  Good homes in your neighborhood are going for 90k to 110k tops...how do you get rid of a $135,000 home?  You luck up and find a buyer that's how.  Right vision, right place, right time, good friend = miraculous JJ deal.  I cannot give Ferry too much credit here, but he gets credit.

 

Marvin deal - Really nice.  I dig Devin Harris.

Drafts - For where we are picking, Ferry has done a decent job.

Resigning Teague - Wait and match?  Not rocket science, but at least he matched him.  Good job Ferry.

Mike Budenholzer - AWESOME and impressive move.  Even if Bud turns out not so good, to have pulled such a highly coveted talent away from San Antonio earns an A+ in my book.

Paul Millsap - GREAT signing.  Sap is honestly my kind of player.  I knew from day one that I would like him.

Kyle Korver - Retained probably the most coveted 3pt marksman in the league.  KK could have easily bolted for a championship situation.  Good job Ferry and team for selling the vision and retaining his services.

Putting us into position to sign both CP3 and Howard - AWESOME. JOB.

Cap flexibility - can't knock it

 

Where's all my Ferry hate?  See?  I understand you very well.  I understand the pro-Ferry crowd VERY well.  The pro-Ferry crowd doesn't understand the anti-Ferry crowd at all.  That's because you guys are rushing to judgement and don't see the bigger/long term picture. You're also ignoring a boatload of facts and odds that don't bode well for us.  Where I disagree with Ferry (which as been beat beyond death by now) is that I don't believe we can compete at the top of the League with this roster and I don't see how we can add the right kind of player(s) to do so.  Obtaining top tier talent is our highest priority, not remaining competitive - and in doing so, we are sacrificing the future.  I don't believe that we can do both at the same time (stay competitive and acquire top tier talent).

 

So I don't agree with his overall vision and when you don't agree overall...well, then you're just a "hater."  

 

Being critical of a GM's performance =/= hater.

 

The things Ferry have done are GOOD.  He's done a decent job - but he hasn't won a playoff series and we haven't won 50 games in a season.  He hasn't earned the "golden seal of approval" that everyone has given him.

Please tell me more Mr. smart guy.  Dissect my personality and life for me since you understand me so well.  Don't act like there aren't many people on this forum who irrationally hate on Ferry and try to downplay the positive things he has done for our franchise during his short time here. 

 

My comment was more of a generalization than picking out a single person.  I don't follow your posts closely enough to know exactly where you stand on each situation.

Edited October 20, 2014 by JETSET

[Wretch]

Please tell me more Mr. smart guy.  Dissect my personality and life for me since you understand me so well.  Don't act like there aren't many people on this forum who irrationally hate on Ferry and try to downplay the positive things he has done for our franchise during his short time here. 

 

My comment was more of a generalization than picking out a single person.  I don't follow your posts closely enough to know exactly where you stand on each situation.

 

 

Both Fratello and Wilkins were very good coaches and I don't mean to diss them.  I would just pick Bud if I had the choice of the 3 and I figured I would use Diesel's method of making extreme statements to do so.

 

My opinions on Ferry are more accurate than all of your constant negative opinions no matter what happens.  I know he's not perfect. I also know that this franchise will be taking a big step back if we cut him loose. 

 

The difference between me and all of you is I only have one agenda and that is winning.  I feel like Ferry/Bud give us the best chance to do so, currently, and I will continue to back both of them until something happens that makes me think otherwise.

 

Sure felt like you were coming after the "anti-Ferry" crowd and lumping me in there.  That's what generalizing is.  Let's not get all negative though.  Sorry if I ruffled you dude.  I'm not a very active poster...but when I find something I feel strongly about, my fingers have a mind of their own. 

 

(LOL I went off on @JayBirdHawk by taking a TWO sentence post out of context.  She was actually agreeing with me!)

 

My point was more that I'm not a hater, you like Ferry, and I completely understand why.  You have to understand though that I am a long time fan.  I sat through the Babcock years watching him build a team that could not get out of the 2nd round.  I see a lot of similarities in the way Babcock did business and the way Ferry does business.  The main similarity being their refusal to reset.  I think that's a necessary evil and without a stroke of luck, Ferry is leading us to more of the same...and that, sadly, is preventing me from getting too excited about what we're doing.

[Guest]

Sure felt like you were coming after the "anti-Ferry" crowd and lumping me in there. That's what generalizing is. Let's not get all negative though. Sorry if I ruffled you dude. I'm not a very active poster...but when I find something I feel strongly about, my fingers have a mind of their own.

(LOL I went off on @JayBirdHawk by taking a TWO sentence post out of context. She was actually agreeing with me!)

My point was more that I'm not a hater, you like Ferry, and I completely understand why. You have to understand though that I am a long time fan. I sat through the Babcock years watching him build a team that could not get out of the 2nd round. I see a lot of similarities in the way Babcock did business and the way Ferry does business. The main similarity being their refusal to reset. I think that's a necessary evil and without a stroke of luck, Ferry is leading us to more of the same...and that, sadly, is preventing me from getting too excited about what we're doing.

@Wretch - got caught up again I see! Lol.

[Guest]

Sure felt like you were coming after the "anti-Ferry" crowd and lumping me in there. That's what generalizing is. Let's not get all negative though. Sorry if I ruffled you dude. I'm not a very active poster...but when I find something I feel strongly about, my fingers have a mind of their own.

(LOL I went off on @JayBirdHawk by taking a TWO sentence post out of context. She was actually agreeing with me!)

My point was more that I'm not a hater, you like Ferry, and I completely understand why. You have to understand though that I am a long time fan. I sat through the Babcock years watching him build a team that could not get out of the 2nd round. I see a lot of similarities in the way Babcock did business and the way Ferry does business. The main similarity being their refusal to reset. I think that's a necessary evil and without a stroke of luck, Ferry is leading us to more of the same...and that, sadly, is preventing me from getting too excited about what we're doing.

I do understand about your point of resetting but didn't we just do that with Marvin, Joe, Josh and all those lottery picks? That Didn't get us pass the 2nd round either. Seems like 6 of one way and 1/2 a dozen of the other.

[AHF]

I do understand about your point of resetting but didn't we just do that with Marvin, Joe, Josh and all those lottery picks? That Didn't get us pass the 2nd round either. Seems like 6 of one way and 1/2 a dozen of the other.

What resetting does depends on what is available in the draft and whether you make the right pick. We blew it with Marvin, Childress, Shelden, and Law. You will never succeed on a reset where you blow your chances at a franchise guy or draft in year with Kenyon Martin type talents at the top rather than Duncan type talents. The range of outcomes is much wider for a future reset than a first or second round exit or near playoff miss keep competitive scenario, IMO. The Hawks have been in keep competitive mode for most of their time in Atlanta. Hope I am wrong, but I agree with most of Wretch's post.

[JETSET]

 

 

 

Sure felt like you were coming after the "anti-Ferry" crowd and lumping me in there.  That's what generalizing is.  Let's not get all negative though.  Sorry if I ruffled you dude.  I'm not a very active poster...but when I find something I feel strongly about, my fingers have a mind of their own. 

 

(LOL I went off on @JayBirdHawk by taking a TWO sentence post out of context.  She was actually agreeing with me!)

 

My point was more that I'm not a hater, you like Ferry, and I completely understand why.  You have to understand though that I am a long time fan.  I sat through the Babcock years watching him build a team that could not get out of the 2nd round.  I see a lot of similarities in the way Babcock did business and the way Ferry does business.  The main similarity being their refusal to reset.  I think that's a necessary evil and without a stroke of luck, Ferry is leading us to more of the same...and that, sadly, is preventing me from getting too excited about what we're doing.

 

It's all good man.  I'm not afraid to admit when I am wrong and I could see how you would easily think I was lumping you in to the negative crowd. I haven't been a fan of the Hawks for 20+ years like some of you have so when I say greatest GM I am speaking in regards to the last 10-15 years.  This franchise has just been pretty hopeless for a long time now and Ferry has renewed that hope, for me at least, and I would like to see him have a chance to complete his vision.

[Wretch]

I do understand about your point of resetting but didn't we just do that with Marvin, Joe, Josh and all those lottery picks? That Didn't get us pass the 2nd round either. Seems like 6 of one way and 1/2 a dozen of the other.

 

To piggyback on what AHF said, a competitive team that continually hits that 1st/2nd round wall has a much narrower range of expectations.  We've all heard the adage, insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results.  If I keep fielding a good team, then I must expect good results.  Something has to tip the scale/move the needle.

 

In our case, obviously we need a go to talent.  Not to be confused with an overhyped, highlight dunking, iso balling, volume shooter...but, for the sake of argument we'll say a "star"...i.e. a guy that can get it done.  How do we get him?

 

The game changers are in the upper part of the draft (i.e. the lottery) and outside of that, it'll take a miracle to find one - that's where we're picking with these playoff performances.  You need a serious trading chip to secure a pick in the sweet spot - and while there are rumors that we've offered up Horford in trades, nothing materialized and we don't know what was sought after/offered.  All that leaves is free agency...which we're...well, here we go again with that...

 

Point is, we secure the top picks in the draft...we have access to the pool that produces the kind of talent we need AND we have the the assets to deal in a blockbuster.  The examples of that are quite numerous.  The examples of doing what we're doing are essentially non-existent.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Wretch

[macdaddy]

I do understand about your point of resetting but didn't we just do that with Marvin, Joe, Josh and all those lottery picks? That Didn't get us pass the 2nd round either. Seems like 6 of one way and 1/2 a dozen of the other.

 

That's one of the rare, but countless, examples of when the reset strategy doesn't work.

 

[Wretch]

That's one of the rare, but countless, examples of when the reset strategy doesn't work.

 

 

So was it all pinned on using the lottery?  Nothing to do with an iso heavy offense centered around a 2nd/3rd tier talent who needed help?  Nothing to with WLOC and our refusal to trade any of these guys?  Josh Smith had NOTHING to do with it...the fact is, we failed to advance just because we were a lottery team and we failed.  Nothing good comes out of using the lottery?  

 

It failed us?  

 

^^This dude says, "iHola!"

 

It's not that resetting doesn't work.  You have to be mindful of your picks and have the right vision.  Billy Knight didn't have the right vision.

[macdaddy]

So was it all pinned on using the lottery?  Nothing to do with an iso heavy offense centered around a 2nd/3rd tier talent who needed help?  Nothing to with WLOC and our refusal to trade any of these guys?  Josh Smith had NOTHING to do with it...the fact is, we failed to advance just because we were a lottery team and we failed.  Nothing good comes out of using the lottery?  

 

It failed us?  

 

^^This dude says, "iHola!"

 

It's not that resetting doesn't work.  You have to be mindful of your picks and have the right vision.  Billy Knight didn't have the right vision.

 

It did fail.  Josh Smith, Iso whatever.  Did we end up with a team that could have gotten past the second round based on the talent we acquired?  I don't think so.  Despite coaching issues and other forces the team pretty much hit it's ceiling.   And yeah we got Al Horford who we're constantly reminded isn't a star.   He is to me but not to most.

[Wretch]

Had we drafted CP3? As many of is wanted? Or hired Doc Rivers as many of us wanted? What if we had packaged chill and the 2006 pick? What could we have secured?

What if we had picked one spot higher in 2007?

Would we still be having this conversation? Sure that's a ton of what if, but with the right management....we would have fared much better. MANAGEMENT of the reset was the problem, not the reset itself.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Wretch