Should we continue to start DMC over Thabo?

[JETSET]

Agreed - All we need from that duo is to be efficient offensively and do what they do best - play defense and grab a few rebounds.

Thabo is better than that though.  Thabo is an elite defender, great rebounder for his position, can make the open shot consistently, finishes well around the rim and is a very capable passer.  His only weakness is not being able to create off the dribble and this team creates off of passes instead of dribbling anyway.

[JETSET]

I haven't seen any games, so I say DMC keeps his role. He has a year of tenure in the system over Thabo and hasn't done anything to lose his job. If Thabo shoots the three considerably better it might not take long for things to change. There won't be many utility 2s bringing his impact on the boards and steals.

Thabo has looked like the better player on a nightly basis throughout preseason.  On offense and defense.

[JETSET]

When did Schröder become a offensive player?

He's looked like one this entire off-season.  We will see if it translates to the regular season soon enough.  I don't see why it wouldn't since these teams have been trying hard during the preseason.

[Guest]

When did Schröder become a offensive player?

@Hotlanta1981 that gave me a good chuckle.

[Peoriabird]

When did Schröder become a offensive player?

Didn't he lead the summer league team in scoring?  And in case you hadn't noticed, he can get to the rim as good as anyone on the the team including Teague.

[HawkItus]

Seems like a bunch of trouble for little actual gain.   If Thabo is a better player the difference is almost negligible  Also, if he is his tools would be any further amplified with the bench squad against 2nd teamers.   Besides possibly messing with chemistry, Junkyard had a great year last year.   Who's to say he won't improve this year?

[AHF]

Preseason means very little - especially when players are trying to work on things outside of their normal range.  I trust Bud to sort through this.  

 

In terms of shooting %s, I have a hard time taking that seriously as a reason to make a change when we are talking about like 7 preseason games and last season:

 

DMC:  47.0% FG%, 36.2% 3pt%, .575% TS%, 11.1 ppg

 

Thabo:  41.5% FG%, 31.5% 3pt%, .517 TS%, 6.3 ppg (career average 5.8 ppg)

[JETSET]

Preseason means very little - especially when players are trying to work on things outside of their normal range.  I trust Bud to sort through this.  

 

In terms of shooting %s, I have a hard time taking that seriously as a reason to make a change when we are talking about like 7 preseason games and last season:

 

DMC:  47.0% FG%, 36.2% 3pt%, .575% TS%, 11.1 ppg

 

Thabo:  41.5% FG%, 31.5% 3pt%, .517 TS%, 6.3 ppg (career average 5.8 ppg)

You can't really judge it since they were in completely different offenses.  Thabo was stuck in an iso offense while Carroll had the luxury of being in our free flowing offense.  It's easier to stay comfortable a a shooter when you are regularly involved in the offense and touching the ball.  What were Carroll's numbers before last year?

 

Thabo still was able to shoot over 40% from 3 in the prior 2 years with OKC.  Preseason is preseason but Thabo looks to be the better player on offense and defense.  I would rather see Carroll start as long as both get near equal playing time.  Our second string unit of Dennis/Bazemore/Thabo is going to be a nightmare defensively for second string backcourts.

[AHF]

You can't really judge it since they were in completely different offenses.  Thabo was stuck in an iso offense while Carroll had the luxury of being in our free flowing offense.  It's easier to stay comfortable a a shooter when you are regularly involved in the offense and touching the ball.  What were Carroll's numbers before last year?

 

Thabo still was able to shoot over 40% from 3 in the prior 2 years with OKC.  Preseason is preseason but Thabo looks to be the better player on offense and defense.  I would rather see Carroll start as long as both get near equal playing time.  Our second string unit of Dennis/Bazemore/Thabo is going to be a nightmare defensively for second string backcourts.

 

Can't judge an entire regular season of play because they were different systems but 7 preseason games is enough to run with?

 

Come on guys.  Thabo has been a better shooter in the past and DMC hasn't been as good but Thabo doesn't even score 9 points per 36 for his career.  Thabo's career high is below DMC's career average.  The Hawks had 16 guys hit that mark last season.

 

My hope for Thabo is that he rebounds on his 3pt shooting but I have no hopes he will start being an offensive contributor with any meaningful volume.  A few timely 3's at a good % and great defense sounds right.  If you set the bar with the idea that Thabo will be scoring double digits on a good %, you are probably setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

On the starting lineup, I would totally defer to Bud on this and if I had to make the call myself I would see some real games rather than basing it on preseason action.

[Peoriabird]

We have to revisit so many thread on this forum!  This will definitely be one of them.

[AHF]

We have to revisit so many thread on this forum!  This will definitely be one of them.

Restart the thread when you have a meaningful sample size of real data and people will be more receptive.

[JETSET]

Can't judge an entire regular season of play because they were different systems but 7 preseason games is enough to run with?

 

Come on guys.  Thabo has been a better shooter in the past and DMC hasn't been as good but Thabo doesn't even score 9 points per 36 for his career.  Thabo's career high is below DMC's career average.  The Hawks had 16 guys hit that mark last season.

 

My hope for Thabo is that he rebounds on his 3pt shooting but I have no hopes he will start being an offensive contributor with any meaningful volume.  A few timely 3's at a good % and great defense sounds right.  If you set the bar with the idea that Thabo will be scoring double digits on a good %, you are probably setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

On the starting lineup, I would totally defer to Bud on this and if I had to make the call myself I would see some real games rather than basing it on preseason action.

I can agree with most of that.  I just will not be surprised if Thabo averages more points per minute on better efficiency than Carroll this season.  It's not all about shooting.  It doesn't have to be a regular season game to see that one player is a better passer or finisher around the rim than the other. 

 

Those previous per 36 stats give us zero indication on how he will perform in this system.  It's hard to put up points when you are only getting 5.5 shots per game and you are playing with two very ball-dominant iso players.  Give Thabo 8.8 attempts per game like Carroll had last year and he will likely have no problem matching or outproducing Carroll's numbers from last season.  Thabo was stuck standing in the corner while Carroll was regularly involved in the offense.  It makes a huge difference.

 

My current opinion is that Thabo is the better all-around offensive player and I could very well turn out to be incorrect.

[JETSET]

Restart the thread when you have a meaningful sample size of real data and people will be more receptive.

How much of the preseason have you watched?

[Guest]

I can agree with most of that. I just will not be surprised if Thabo averages more points per minute on better efficiency than Carroll this season. It's not all about shooting. It doesn't have to be a regular season game to see that one player is a better passer or finisher around the rim than the other.

Those previous per 36 stats give us zero indication on how he will perform in this system. It's hard to put up points when you are only getting 5.5 shots per game and you are playing with two very ball-dominant iso players. Give Thabo 8.8 attempts per game like Carroll had last year and he will likely have no problem matching or outproducing Carroll's numbers from last season. Thabo was stuck standing in the corner while Carroll was regularly involved in the offense. It makes a huge difference.

My current opinion is that Thabo is the better all-around offensive player and I could very well turn out to be incorrect.

Thabo has always been the better all round player period, that's why he's been a starter for most of his career.

Last year was the first time that DMC became more than a 'hustle' guy.

Having said that, I'm rolling with whatever Bud decides. He'll take into account the chemistry and continuity of the starters and what Thabo provides for the bench vs DMC.

Pop wanted Ginobli off the bench instead of with the starting unit to help the bench even though he was the better player.

[Peoriabird]

I can agree with most of that.  I just will not be surprised if Thabo averages more points per minute on better efficiency than Carroll this season.  It's not all about shooting.  It doesn't have to be a regular season game to see that one player is a better passer or finisher around the rim than the other. 

 

Those previous per 36 stats give us zero indication on how he will perform in this system.  It's hard to put up points when you are only getting 5.5 shots per game and you are playing with two very ball-dominant iso players.  Give Thabo 8.8 attempts per game like Carroll had last year and he will likely have no problem matching or outproducing Carroll's numbers from last season.  Thabo was stuck standing in the corner while Carroll was regularly involved in the offense.  It makes a huge difference.

 

My current opinion is that Thabo is the better all-around offensive player and I could very well turn out to be incorrect.

He understands all of this^^^  Some people just like to be difficult!

Edited October 24, 2014 by Peoriabird

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

DMC will be fine. I hardly call the preseason a good basis for him to lose his starting gig. Preseason is about shaking off the rust and developing the younger talent. Bud's rotations and distribution of minutes in the regular season will be different than during the preseason. He doesn't deserve to lose his starting position based on preseason play nor does Thabo deserve to be promoted. Plus, I like the combo of Thabo/Baze off the bench.

Edited October 23, 2014 by PSSSHHHRRR87

[AHF]

How much of the preseason have you watched?

 

About 30 years worth, probably 25 years as a serious fan.  Enough to know that preseason and summer league stats don't mean much.

[AHF]

I can agree with most of that.  I just will not be surprised if Thabo averages more points per minute on better efficiency than Carroll this season.  It's not all about shooting.  It doesn't have to be a regular season game to see that one player is a better passer or finisher around the rim than the other. 

 

Those previous per 36 stats give us zero indication on how he will perform in this system.  It's hard to put up points when you are only getting 5.5 shots per game and you are playing with two very ball-dominant iso players.  Give Thabo 8.8 attempts per game like Carroll had last year and he will likely have no problem matching or outproducing Carroll's numbers from last season.  Thabo was stuck standing in the corner while Carroll was regularly involved in the offense.  It makes a huge difference.

 

My current opinion is that Thabo is the better all-around offensive player and I could very well turn out to be incorrect.

 

I likewise agree with most of this but really will be surprised if Thabo produces double digits per game.  I don't think he will take 8.8 attempts per game.  Thabo's career high is 6.1 FGA/game and  and I don't think system is the main driver for that.  He just isn't an offensively inclined player.

 

Kyle Korver has put up his two lowest FGA/36 seasons of  his career in Atlanta but we think Thabo is going to start producing serious volume because Thabo also does little more than shoot long jumpers?

 

Thabo may end up being start-worthy, I just wouldn't use the preseason to judge.  Thabo should end up shooting much better than last season but I don't expect him to start shooting a volume per game similar to DMC's 2013-14 season.

[JTB]

I say keep DMC as a starter even if Thabo proves to be better.

We need a strong bench and DMC in the starting lineup isnt killing us...but that dribble shit will have to stop, but I also know that it's just a pre season thing! I seriously doubt bud is going to let DMC try to learn to become a driver (penetrator) over the regular season.

If bud wants two guys that can get in the lane he has Teague, Bazemore, as well as Dennis and Sap depending on saps matchup.

I feel this thread was created mainly because of fear that DMC is going to try to be this driver that he clearly isn't. Bud knows how to use his players and I'm sure he was just experimenting over preseason just to see what DMC may have improved in.

DMC will have the same role this year as he had last year. No over reaction needed....and again if Thabo is the better player we need his offense off the bench!

Where the hell is Thabo going to get shots in our starting lineup with Teague, Korver, sap, horford?...we have plenty of offense in our starting unit already.

[Peoriabird]

I say keep DMC as a starter even if Thabo proves to be better.

We need a strong bench and DMC in the starting lineup isnt killing us...but that dribble shit will have to stop, but I also know that it's just a pre season thing! I seriously doubt bud is going to let DMC try to learn to become a driver (penetrator) over the regular season.

If bud wants two guys that can get in the lane he has Teague, Bazemore, as well as Dennis and Sap depending on saps matchup.

I feel this thread was created mainly because of fear that DMC is going to try to be this driver that he clearly isn't. Bud knows how to use his players and I'm sure he was just experimenting over preseason just to see what DMC may have improved in.

DMC will have the same role this year as he had last year. No over reaction needed....and again if Thabo is the better player we need his offense off the bench!

Where the hell is Thabo going to get shots in our starting lineup with Teague, Korver, sap, horford?...we have plenty of offense in our starting unit already.

I hope that you are right but I'm not sure...There are plenty of shots for the 3 in our system especially a guy like Thabo who can finish around the rim in a variety of ways.  Can't exactly do those back screens with DMC.