Should we continue to start DMC over Thabo?

[JETSET]

I likewise agree with most of this but really will be surprised if Thabo produces double digits per game. I don't think he will take 8.8 attempts per game. Thabo's career high is 6.1 FGA/game and and I don't think system is the main driver for that. He just isn't an offensively inclined player.

Kyle Korver has put up his two lowest FGA/36 seasons of his career in Atlanta but we think Thabo is going to start producing serious volume because Thabo also does little more than shoot long jumpers?

Thabo may end up being start-worthy, I just wouldn't use the preseason to judge. Thabo should end up shooting much better than last season but I don't expect him to start shooting a volume per game similar to DMC's 2013-14 season.

I never said that thabo would get 9 shots per game. I said his 9 shots per game would be more efficient and productive than Carroll's 9

[JETSET]

About 30 years worth, probably 25 years as a serious fan. Enough to know that preseason and summer league stats don't mean much.

It looks like you continue to miss my point. At this point, I think you may be doing it on purpose. Please show me where I have listed a stat for thabo from this preseason.

[NBASupes]

We need to consider it.

[AHF]

I never said that thabo would get 9 shots per game. I said his 9 shots per game would be more efficient and productive than Carroll's 9

 

Nobody shot more productive shots than the few wide open dunks made by offensively challenged centers.  If all you take is wide open shots and you don't take many of them, they are naturally efficient.

 

How productive are they if you are only shooting 5 times per game, though?

 

That is the whole point.  Why talk about what Thabo would do with 9 shots per game if he will never shoot the ball that many times.  That is like talking about how great DeAndre Jordan would be dominant on offense if he only took more shots.  That is a worthless conversation when the guy is too limited offensively to take more shots.  It is great that guys like Jordan and Thabo are smart enough not to overextend themselves and take terrible shots and so are (ignoring last season for Thabo) generally pretty efficient but if you are going to talk about guys like that you shouldn't be excited about them offensively.  I mean it is great that Thabo made over 40% of his 3's for 2 seasons (and has 5 seasons less than 33.3%) but when you are only making less than 1 three per game that doesn't amount to much.  Thabo's career average is 0.6 3pt per game.  It is very different when Korver is hitting 40%+ and making 2.6 3's per game.

 

Again, that doesn't make Thabo a bad player and it doesn't mean his 3's are worthless but it limits the actual production on offense when you aren't shooting enough to space the floor (i.e., draw defenders to you) and you are only making 1 or 2 total shots per night (as in Thabo's numerous 5-6 point per game seasons).

Edited October 24, 2014 by AHF

[Guest]

This has nothing to do with real life bball but for some reason when I play 2k15, Thabo has the highest player +/- for me. He is a real difference maker on my team when I play as the Hawks.

[JTB]

I hope that you are right but I'm not sure...There are plenty of shots for the 3 in our system especially a guy like Thabo who can finish around the rim in a variety of ways. Can't exactly do those back screens with DMC.

I'm sure DMC can and will hit those plenty of shots the 3 position will get.

I'm not worried about DMC he won't overdue it when the season starts...I'm sure he's not our next josh smith! Lol

Seriously I think it was just an pre season experiment bud was trying out.

[DrReality]

I wouldn't mess with the chemistry of the starting five.  The great news is that we have choices now.  Wouldn't be surprised over the course of the season that this change takes place. 

[Sothron]

I'd like to see Bazemore start and Korver play at SF with he and DMC splitting time there and (sigh) that waste of a roster space in Thabo backing up SG with Bazemore.

[AHF]

I'd like to see Bazemore start and Korver play at SF with he and DMC splitting time there and (sigh) that waste of a roster space in Thabo backing up SG with Bazemore.

 

I think you are being too harsh on Thabo here.  He should be a  plus defender and hit a few shots for us.  There is value in a role player like that.

[JETSET]

Nobody shot more productive shots than the few wide open dunks made by offensively challenged centers.  If all you take is wide open shots and you don't take many of them, they are naturally efficient.

 

How productive are they if you are only shooting 5 times per game, though?

 

That is the whole point.  Why talk about what Thabo would do with 9 shots per game if he will never shoot the ball that many times.  That is like talking about how great DeAndre Jordan would be dominant on offense if he only took more shots.  That is a worthless conversation when the guy is too limited offensively to take more shots.  It is great that guys like Jordan and Thabo are smart enough not to overextend themselves and take terrible shots and so are (ignoring last season for Thabo) generally pretty efficient but if you are going to talk about guys like that you shouldn't be excited about them offensively.  I mean it is great that Thabo made over 40% of his 3's for 2 seasons (and has 5 seasons less than 33.3%) but when you are only making less than 1 three per game that doesn't amount to much.  Thabo's career average is 0.6 3pt per game.  It is very different when Korver is hitting 40%+ and making 2.6 3's per game.

 

Again, that doesn't make Thabo a bad player and it doesn't mean his 3's are worthless but it limits the actual production on offense when you aren't shooting enough to space the floor (i.e., draw defenders to you) and you are only making 1 or 2 total shots per night (as in Thabo's numerous 5-6 point per game seasons).

and you still fail to understand the HUGE difference between playing in a free flowing offense like ours and an offense where you are told to go stand in a corner while two other guys go one on one.  It's really not that hard of a concept to grasp.

 

Use his career averages all you want.  Fact is, Thabo shot 42% from 3 on almost 3 attempts per game two years ago.  You won't be able to doubt his abilities too much longer so get it all out while you still can.

Edited October 24, 2014 by JETSET

[Guest]

I'd like to see Bazemore start and Korver play at SF with he and DMC splitting time there and (sigh) that waste of a roster space in Thabo backing up SG with Bazemore.

Thabo>>>Baze

Baze is going to be an electrifying young stud and have some awesome athletic plays but he is also gonna make some boneheaded plays that will drive Bud crazy. I've watched a lot if this kid as a Warrior and he is a fan favorite but not a high BBIQ by any means. I think the Thabo signing was much more significant for our club. Remains to be seen but I have a feeling many if you are going to go on day long rants about Baze and BBIQ. Lol.

[AHF]

and you still fail to understand the HUGE difference between playing in a free flowing offense like ours and an offense where you are told to go stand in a corner while two other guys go one on one.  It's really not that hard of a concept to grasp.

 

Proof will be in the pudding when we see how many shots per game he is actually taking in real games.

 

Korver in our free shooting offense shot less than he did anywhere else so I am not ready to buy into him shooting a ton more in our system.  Let's see what Thabo does.

 

Here are his shots per game with DMC in the preseason for those who think the preseason is a good predictor:

 

Grizzlies 6 FGA

Heat 6 FGA

Bulls 6 FGA

Hornets 5 FGA

Spurs 5 FGA

 

Avg:  5.6 FGA/game

Last season's avg:  5.6 FGA/game

 

Doesn't look revolutionary in the preseason but I don't abide by preseason numbers so I will wait and see if Thabo is transformed by Bud's system during the regular season.

[BrazilianHawk]

Even if he starts, I don't see DMC playing 32 MPG this year with Baze, Thabo signed. I see more like 25 MPG from DMC, 20-25 for Thabo and 15-20 for Baze.

 

20 minutes for Bazemore equals tanking in my books.

[Guest]

20 minutes for Bazemore equals tanking in my books.

I don't want to see him for more than 10 or 12 min a night.

[JETSET]

Proof will be in the pudding when we see how many shots per game he is actually taking in real games.

 

Korver in our free shooting offense shot less than he did anywhere else so I am not ready to buy into him shooting a ton more in our system.  Let's see what Thabo does.

 

Here are his shots per game with DMC in the preseason for those who think the preseason is a good predictor:

 

Grizzlies 6 FGA

Heat 6 FGA

Bulls 6 FGA

Hornets 5 FGA

Spurs 5 FGA

 

Avg:  5.6 FGA/game

Last season's avg:  5.6 FGA/game

 

Doesn't look revolutionary in the preseason but I don't abide by preseason numbers so I will wait and see if Thabo is transformed by Bud's system during the regular season.

When have I ever said that he will take more shots?? You keep going on these long rants about things I am not even talknig about.  All I am saying is that Thabo is a better player than Carroll on offense and defense.  He will be more efficient with the shots he gets and he is a better finisher around the rim along with being a better passer and ballhandler.

 

The only time I mentioned how many shots Thabo gets is when I said that him taking 8.8 shots per game would be more productive than Carroll taking 8.8 shots per game. 

 

Your assessment is incorrect anyway.  Thabo put up 5.6 shots per game on 19 mpg in the preseason.  If the question is whether Thabo should replace Carroll in the starting lineup, he could easily have 8.8 attempts per game if he got the 32 mpg that Carroll had last season.  With that pace, he would average 9.4 shots per game if he played 32 mpg.

Edited October 24, 2014 by JETSET

[AHF]

When have I ever said that he will take more shots?? You keep going on these long rants about things I am not even talknig about.  All I am saying is that Thabo is a better player than Carroll on offense and defense.  He will be more efficient with the shots he gets and he is a better finisher around the rim along with being a better passer and ballhandler.

 

The only time I mentioned how many shots Thabo gets is when I said that him taking 8.8 shots per game would be more productive than Carroll taking 8.8 shots per game. 

 

Your assessment is incorrect anyway.  Thabo put up 5.6 shots per game on 19 mpg in the preseason.  If the question is whether Thabo should replace Carroll in the starting lineup, he could easily have 8.8 attempts per game if he got the 32 mpg that Carroll had last season.  With that pace, he would average 9.4 shots per game if he played 32 mpg.

 

I keep mentioning how many shots Thabo will actually take because if DeAndre Jordan was taking 30 shots a game he would lead the league in scoring but he is so limited on offense that he can't.  Thabo is similarly limited on offense and you keep saying that the change in system will revolutionize his offensive productivity.

 

If he continues to shoot 6 or so shots a game he will be the same non-factor on offense he always has been and that is not as good as DMC was last season.  DMC was a legit threat on offense last year.  It is because of his limited offensive ability that he has always played limited minutes so talking about what could happen if he was suddenly playing 32 minutes per game or if you "gave him" the 8.8 shots DMC had last year is worthless to me.  Thabo will only take 8.8 shots per game if the coach thinks he offers enough to get the minutes and he takes on the biggest role on offense of his life.  He has always limited himself to taking high % shots and not asserting himself at all on offense -- just like DeAndre Jordan but on the perimeter.  Who cares what those guys would average if they got 12 shots a game?  The whole reason they are nicely efficient (well, Thabo has been efficient some seasons anyway) is because they take the small number of shots that are consistent with their limited offensive games.

 

DMC did more than that last season and I don't expect Thabo to be that productive on offense for us -- due to his inability to win minutes, his restrictive shot selection, whatever.

 

DMC has averaged .057 offensive win shares per 48 for his career.  

Thabo has averaged less than half of that at .025 offensive win shares per 48 for his career.

 

Let's see how it shakes out in the real games.  Personally, I hope DMC repeats his excellent offense from last year and Thabo is even better.  That will be a great 'problem' for Bud to sort out in the distribution of minutes. 

[JETSET]

I keep mentioning how many shots Thabo will actually take because if DeAndre Jordan was taking 30 shots a game he would lead the league in scoring but he is so limited on offense that he can't.  Thabo is similarly limited on offense and you keep saying that the change in system will revolutionize his offensive productivity.

 

If he continues to shoot 6 or so shots a game he will be the same non-factor on offense he always has been and that is not as good as DMC was last season.  DMC was a legit threat on offense last year.  It is because of his limited offensive ability that he has always played limited minutes so talking about what could happen if he was suddenly playing 32 minutes per game or if you "gave him" the 8.8 shots DMC had last year is worthless to me.  Thabo will only take 8.8 shots per game if the coach thinks he offers enough to get the minutes and he takes on the biggest role on offense of his life.  He has always limited himself to taking high % shots and not asserting himself at all on offense -- just like DeAndre Jordan but on the perimeter.  Who cares what those guys would average if they got 12 shots a game?  The whole reason they are nicely efficient (well, Thabo has been efficient some seasons anyway) is because they take the small number of shots that are consistent with their limited offensive games.

 

DMC did more than that last season and I don't expect Thabo to be that productive on offense for us -- due to his inability to win minutes, his restrictive shot selection, whatever.

 

DMC has averaged .057 offensive win shares per 48 for his career.  

Thabo has averaged less than half of that at .025 offensive win shares per 48 for his career.

 

Let's see how it shakes out in the real games.  Personally, I hope DMC repeats his excellent offense from last year and Thabo is even better.  That will be a great 'problem' for Bud to sort out in the distribution of minutes. 

You keep using these career stats when they are useless.  We are obviously going to just continue going in circles so there is no point in continuing the conversation. 

 

I was very high on Carroll and still am.  I have just been more impressed with what I have seen from Thabo on both sides of the court.  I also hope that Thabo outperforms Carroll while Carroll at least slightly improves his game from last season.  We were 1-10 in games without Korver and 1-8 without DMC last season and I think the addition of Thabo will help to solve this problem big time.

[AHF]

You keep using these career stats when they are useless. We are obviously going to just continue going in circles so there is no point in continuing the conversation.

Agreed. You are relying on speculation that Thabo will transform due to the change in system and I am relying on his 13,000 minutes of play in the NBA. Neither will mean much compared to what he actually produces in real games so let's wait and see.

We were 1-10 in games without Korver and 1-8 without DMC last season and I think the addition of Thabo will help to solve this problem big time.

On this we agree. We were crippled last season when either DMC or Korver were out because of our complete lack of depth on the wing. The additions of Jenkins, Bazemore and Thabo should put us in a much better position to absorb the absence of Korver or DMC than we were last year.

Edited October 24, 2014 by AHF

[Guest]

I'd like to see Bazemore start and Korver play at SF with he and DMC splitting time there and (sigh) that waste of a roster space in Thabo backing up SG with Bazemore.

[Guest]

20 minutes for Bazemore equals tanking in my books.