Should we continue to start DMC over Thabo?

[Peoriabird]

You keep using these career stats when they are useless.  We are obviously going to just continue going in circles so there is no point in continuing the conversation. 

Man you wasted a lot of time on this and wow..You got no where!  You would say that Thabo is a better all around player ...Response is but he doesn't shoot that much.   You would say he is a better ball handler and rebounder...response is that he doesn't shoot that much. You would point how the offense would flow better with a better ball handler and driver..response is but he doesn't shoot that much.  I felt your pain my brother!

[Guest]

The season can't get here soon enough.

I'll say it again - Thabo has been the better player since entering the NBA.

If Bud decides he wants him off the bench or starting for chemistry, leading the 2nd unit whatever - I'm good.

I'm just glad there are options.

[Peoriabird]

The season can't get here soon enough.

I'll say it again - Thabo has been the better player since entering the NBA.

If Bud decides he wants him off the bench or starting for chemistry, leading the 2nd unit whatever - I'm good.

How do you know?  He doesn't shoot that much!  Deandre Jordan would be one of the best players in the NBA if he shot more.  Thabo only average 5.6 shot per game for his career.  How can he be considered the better player?

[Guest]

How do you know? He doesn't shoot that much! Deandre Jordan would be one of the best players in the NBA if he shot more. Thabo only average 5.6 shot per game for his career. How can he be considered the better player?

Hahaha - good one.

[JETSET]

Man you wasted a lot of time on this and wow..You got no where!  You would say that Thabo is a better all around player ...Response is but he doesn't shoot that much.   You would say he is a better ball handler and rebounder...response is that he doesn't shoot that much. You would point how the offense would flow better with a better ball handler and driver..response is but he doesn't shoot that much.  I felt your pain my brother!

LMAO!  I know right.  I keep talking about the fundamentals and intangibles and he keeps trying to force Thabo's career stats and shots per game down my throat. 

[Guest]

I've given this some more thought - I'm still on the start DMC, Thabo off the bench.

I think Thabo's fundamentals and intangibles could only make the bench stronger. DMC might think he's the star and go to guy for the bench and start driving the ball and shooting a lot :-).

Until I see actual regular games DMC hasn't lost his spot in the starting line up.

[AHF]

How do you know?  He doesn't shoot that much!  Deandre Jordan would be one of the best players in the NBA if he shot more.  Thabo only average 5.6 shot per game for his career.  How can he be considered the better player?

 

Shooting is irrelevant to offense don't you know that!

 

A guy who has an assist rate below 10% is going to be amazing in our offense because of his impact passing ability.  That kind of number is right there with amazing passers like Pero Antić and Gustov Ayón last season!  

 

A guy who has shot more than 50% of his shots from long range and doesn't drive with any type of frequency is going to be amazing because of his ability to drive the ball to the hoop.  Just wait.  A lack of driving + Bud = big impact as a driver.

 

A guy whose all-around offensive game has had less than 50% of the impact of DMC's from an OWS rate is going to be amazing because he is in a different offense.  Bud + non-impact offensive player = impact offensive player.

 

And what is the evidence for all this?  Ah.  6 preseason games. 

 

So DMC's last two season being better than any two seasons in Thabo's significantly longer career is irrelevant because of "system."  OK.

 

You guys are on track to be really disappointed in Bud this year if you are expecting him to transform Thabo into an impact offensive player.

[Peoriabird]

Shooting is irrelevant to offense don't you know that!

 

A guy who has an assist rate below 10% is going to be amazing in our offense because of his impact passing ability.  That kind of number is right there with amazing passers like Pero Antić and Gustov Ayón last season!  

 

A guy who has shot more than 50% of his shots from long range and doesn't drive with any type of frequency is going to be amazing because of his ability to drive the ball to the hoop.  Just wait.  A lack of driving + Bud = big impact as a driver.

 

A guy whose all-around offensive game has had less than 50% of the impact of DMC's from an OWS rate is going to be amazing because he is in a different offense.  Bud + non-impact offensive player = impact offensive player.

 

And what is the evidence for all this?  Ah.  6 preseason games. 

 

So DMC's last two season being better than any two seasons in Thabo's significantly longer career is irrelevant because of "system."  OK.

 

You guys are on track to be really disappointed in Bud this year if you are expecting him to transform Thabo into an impact offensive player.

You're right...I have no idea why OKC started this bum over Harden in the NBA finals!

[Guest]

How do you know? He doesn't shoot that much! Deandre Jordan would be one of the best players in the NBA if he shot more. Thabo only average 5.6 shot per game for his career. How can he be considered the better player?

Didn't AHF use the Deandre Jordan analogy? Lol

[AHF]

Didn't AHF use the Deandre Jordan analogy? Lol

 

Darn right I did.  DeAndre Jordan shoots over 60% from the field but it would be foolish to start talking about how productive he would be with more shots -- the same argument that was being made about Thabo.  It is very analogous to the extent you are trying to argue how good Thabo would be if you "gave" him more shots.  You can't "give" people like Jordan and Thabo more shots and expect the same efficiency.  If a guy like Jordan or Thabo are ready to take on a larger role than the "shoot when wide open" role they have played to date in their careers, you should expect a decline in efficiency because they will be taking more shots outside of their comfort zone.  Sometimes guys expand their games and remain very effective.  Other times guys become very inefficient when they start doing things like trying to take people off the dribble and score.  

 

Thabo strikes me as a smart role player who recognizes that he would hurt the team by trying to go outside his comfort zone of taking almost exclusively wide open shots and so he doesn't ramp up the attempts beyond his normal 5-6 per game.  That is MUCH better than being like Jordan Crawford and firing up a bunch of low % shots, but it also means the offensive impact is going to be very limited due to nothing more than low volume.

 

Now if Thabo passed the ball like Boris Diaw or got to the line 6 times a game by being fouled on drives or something like that we could have a very different conversation about the guy.  I'd love to see him do that in Atlanta.  But the guy has never handled the ball much on offense, has never been an impact passer, and has averaged 1 trip to the free throw line every other game over 551 NBA games.  For that reason, I think it is unfair to expect him to suddenly become an impact offensive player when he is 13,000 minutes into his career and has never done that before.  On a separate issue, I don't think preseason action or summer league play should be the basis for setting that type of expectation.

 

Instead, I think the expectation should be plus defense and an occasional wide open 3.  Expecting him to shoot more or handle the ball like a point forward or something is setting him up to fail.  While I am sure that Bud has no such expectations, it seems like some of our fans are expecting to see a whole new Thabo in our system.  I expect to see him improve on his 3pt% from last year (say 38% from the field) but to remain an afterthought on the offensive end while bringing his usual standout defense and solid rebounding.  Is that hating him?  I don't think so.

Edited October 24, 2014 by AHF

[AHF]

You're right...I have no idea why OKC started this bum over Harden in the NBA finals!

 

It wasn't for his defense.  It was for his offense.  Trust me.  

[JETSET]

Darn right I did.  DeAndre Jordan shoots over 60% from the field but it would be foolish to start talking about how productive he would be with more shots -- the same argument that was being made about Thabo.  It is very analogous to the extent you are trying to argue how good Thabo would be if you "gave" him more shots.  You can't "give" people like Jordan and Thabo more shots and expect the same efficiency.  If a guy like Jordan or Thabo are ready to take on a larger role than the "shoot when wide open" role they have played to date in their careers, you should expect a decline in efficiency because they will be taking more shots outside of their comfort zone.  Sometimes guys expand their games and remain very effective.  Other times guys become very inefficient when they start doing things like trying to take people off the dribble and score.  

 

Thabo strikes me as a smart role player who recognizes that he would hurt the team by trying to go outside his comfort zone of taking almost exclusively wide open shots and so he doesn't ramp up the attempts beyond his normal 5-6 per game.  That is MUCH better than being like Jordan Crawford and firing up a bunch of low % shots, but it also means the offensive impact is going to be very limited due to nothing more than low volume.

 

Now if Thabo passed the ball like Boris Diaw or got to the line 6 times a game by being fouled on drives or something like that we could have a very different conversation about the guy.  I'd love to see him do that in Atlanta.  But the guy has never handled the ball much on offense, has never been an impact passer, and has averaged 1 trip to the free throw line every other game over 551 NBA games.  For that reason, I think it is unfair to expect him to suddenly become an impact offensive player when he is 13,000 minutes into his career and has never done that before.  On a separate issue, I don't think preseason action or summer league play should be the basis for setting that type of expectation.

 

Instead, I think the expectation should be plus defense and an occasional wide open 3.  Expecting him to shoot more or handle the ball like a point forward or something is setting him up to fail.  While I am sure that Bud has no such expectations, it seems like some of our fans are expecting to see a whole new Thabo in our system.  I expect to see him improve on his 3pt% from last year (say 38% from the field) but to remain an afterthought on the offensive end while bringing his usual standout defense and solid rebounding.  Is that hating him?  I don't think so.

You either have terrible reading comprehension or you are trolling.  When has any one said that Thabo would be a point forward or being a focal point of the offense?  You keep going in to these detailed posts about stuff that no one has ever even said.  I don't know what to tell you if you can't understand the difference between functioning in OKC's offense and our offense. 

[JETSET]

 

Give this a watch and you may begin to see what I am talking about.  Start watching around 6:30

Edited October 24, 2014 by JETSET

[AHF]

You either have terrible reading comprehension or you are trolling.  When has any one said that Thabo would be a point forward or being a focal point of the offense?  You keep going in to these detailed posts about stuff that no one has ever even said.  I don't know what to tell you if you can't understand the difference between functioning in OKC's offense and our offense. 

 

You guys have:

 

*  said he will be better this year than DMC was last year on offense

*  praised his passing

*  praised his driving ability

*  said we should look at how he would perform if "given" more shots

*  said he should see significantly more shots in Atlanta without explaining why our other veteran jump shooter has seen fewer looks in our system

*  said he might get 30+ minutes per game

 

I am saying that he is unlikely to be better on offense than DMC was last year; that he isn't much of a passer; that he isn't much of driver; that he won't be "given" more shots per game both because he is unlikely to play 30+ minutes per game here and because he has been smart enough to limit his shots in the past and is likely do that again here with better offensive options like Korver, Horford, Sap, Teague, Jenkins, Scott, Moose, etc.  Thus, his offensive production should be expected to be pretty limited.  Like it has for 13,000 minutes in the NBA.  

 

As long as he defends, boards, and hits the few 3's he shoots at 36% or higher, I will be very happy with him.

[AHF]

 

Give this a watch and you may begin to see what I am talking about.  Start watching around 6:30

 

If you are arguing that Scott Brooks is not a good offensive coach there is no argument.  I agree.  He reminds me of Woody in terms of holding his team back by running a simplistic and ineffective scheme.  That gets glossed over because KD and Westbrook have so much individual talent.

 

That said, did you hear how many times in the video our commentator talked about how the Thunder should involve Thabo?  I didn't listen to the whole thing so maybe he mentioned it.  In the 7+ minutes to which I listened, he talked mostly about how to get the ball to KD and Westbrook in better position to score by running real screens, having movement, posting up, etc.

 

In a world where the Thunder run a real offensive system, that team wouldn't have seen Thabo shooting a lot more.  It would see Durant posting up when Paul is guarding him, real screens being set to free up Durant, real pick and roll action between Durant and Westbrook, better movement and passing to avoid hero one-on-one play, etc. but Thabo would still be competing to be the 5th option on the floor with Kendrick Perkins.  

 

The funny thing about you picking that game is this:

 

The Thunder benched Thabo in game 4 against the Clippers with 3:34 to go in the 3rd quarter and he never played again.

 

Why?  It was not because of his defense or rebounding.  It was because he was viewed as worthless on offense.

[Guest]

For the record I've never said any of that stuff..all I'm saying is Thabo would have a greater impact for us than DMC. Both are great 3 and D guys. I just simply think Thabo plays better defense than DMC and handles the ball better and passes better. No way in hell should his shot attempts increase and no way should he try to drive to the hole more or any of those things. We signed him because HE IS WHAT WE THOUGHT HE WAS..lol. Just cover the opposing teams best wing guy every night and occasionally nail a couple 3's a game and keep the ball moving. I would mind a few steals and rebounds as well but that's it. I'm not expecting any more from him.

[AHF]

For the record I've never said any of that stuff..all I'm saying is Thabo would have a greater impact for us than DMC. Both are great 3 and D guys. I just simply think Thabo plays better defense than DMC and handles the ball better and passes better. No way in hell should his shot attempts increase and no way should he try to drive to the hole more or any of those things. We signed him because HE IS WHAT WE THOUGHT HE WAS..lol. Just cover the opposing teams best wing guy every night and occasionally nail a couple 3's a game and keep the ball moving. I would mind a few steals and rebounds as well but that's it. I'm not expecting any more from him.

 

Then you and I disagree with just about nothing.  The only other thing I've said is that I would trust Bud to pick which makes the better starter and if I was making the call myself I wouldn't base it on preseason play because that doesn't mean much.  

[JETSET]

If you are arguing that Scott Brooks is not a good offensive coach there is no argument.  I agree.  He reminds me of Woody in terms of holding his team back by running a simplistic and ineffective scheme.  That gets glossed over because KD and Westbrook have so much individual talent.

 

That said, did you hear how many times in the video our commentator talked about how the Thunder should involve Thabo?  I didn't listen to the whole thing so maybe he mentioned it.  In the 7+ minutes to which I listened, he talked mostly about how to get the ball to KD and Westbrook in better position to score by running real screens, having movement, posting up, etc.

 

In a world where the Thunder run a real offensive system, that team wouldn't have seen Thabo shooting a lot more.  It would see Durant posting up when Paul is guarding him, real screens being set to free up Durant, real pick and roll action between Durant and Westbrook, better movement and passing to avoid hero one-on-one play, etc. but Thabo would still be competing to be the 5th option on the floor with Kendrick Perkins.  

 

The funny thing about you picking that game is this:

 

The Thunder benched Thabo in game 4 against the Clippers with 3:34 to go in the 3rd quarter and he never played again.

 

Why?  It was not because of his defense or rebounding.  It was because he was viewed as worthless on offense.

lol.  Looks like you completely missed my point yet again.  I was pointing out how in OKC, Thabo's role was to go stand in the corner on offense.  In our system, he will be moving around much more and he will get a chance to score more on cuts and other ways when he becomes wide open due to our movement.  I think that he may shoot better in our system as well since he will be involved in the offense and not standing in the corner.  It's easier to stay in rhythm as a shooter when you are involved and not just standing around.

 

I have not once said that Thabo should be a focus of the offense or have plays ran for him and you keep insinuating that I am.  I am speaking clearly and you continue to completely lose track of what I am saying.  Other posters seem to agree that I have been clear in what I am saying so I don't understand why you are having trouble. 

 

In regards to Thabo's struggles in the postseason, I put the blame on him still being injured.  He missed like 6-8 weeks near the end of the season and came back in April.  His shut was way off throughout April and the postseason.  He had a slow start to the year with shooting over the first 7 games, then shot 37+% from 3 over a 48 game span before being injured and then struggling once he returned from injury.

[AHF]

I guess I totally missed your point because you asked me to watch a video that never showed how Thabo was used because Thabo wasn't even on the floor during that time.  Shouldn't the video have shown Thabo being asked to sit in the corner if that was your point?

 

Where you and I disagree is what the significance is of Thabo moving more on offense.  My response is basically:  "so what?"  The guy will take so few shots, drive the ball so little, and make so few impact passes that I don't see the difference amounting to anything.  Your response seems to be that the difference in offense will be highly significant but you aren't spelling out why other than to generally say you think he will be scoring a lot more on cuts and stuff.

 

Let's just see how his play unfolds and whether the offense results in an uptick in his scoring or not.

[JETSET]

I guess I totally missed ur point because you asked me to watch a video that never showed how Thabo was used because Thabo wasn't even on the floor during that time. Shouldn't the video have shown Thabo being asked to sit in the corner if that was your point?

Where you and I disagree is what the significance is of Thabo moving more on offense. My response is basically: "so what?" The guy will take so few shots, drive the ball so little, and make so few impact passes that I don't see the difference amounting to anything. Your response seems to be that the difference in offense will be highly significant but you aren't spelling out why other than to generally say you think he will be scoring a lot more on cuts and stuff.

Let's just see how his play unfolds and whether the offense results in an uptick in his scoring or not.

The only point I was ever trying to make was that I believe thabo is a better defender and offensive player than DMC. You kept trying to go on random tangents.

I have never said that he would have a big increase in scoring or anything else. the only thing I am saying about Thabo's scoring is he will likely be a more efficient scorer than he was at OKC and he will likely be a more efficient scorer than DMC.

Thabo is clearly in that video by the way.