Retrospect: The worth of a Star.

[macdaddy]

We broke the rule.  You should always look at changing coaches before moving star players.

There was an expectation that went with trading Joe.  That expectation is that we were doing more than trading him for nothing. It turns out, we traded him for nothing.

 

On the plus side, I'm really enjoying the nothing we have on the court this year.   In fact, I prefer the nothing to the old something.

[Diesel]

I know we aren't contending. That's why I said we would be "further away" with Joe. History shows you need prime HALL OF FAME talent just to win your conference. It's impossible to acquire HOF talent and keep a competitive supporting cast when you're paying over $20 million to a borderline All Star. 

 

I didn't know Borderline Allstars can be 7 time allstars??  That's downright disrespectful 5.  I know you're trying to devalue Joe.. but to call him Borderline allstar is laughable.   Maybe Borderline Hall of famer?

 

In his best year, Smoove was a borderline allstar.  Joe carried the mantle of allstar 6 times for Atlanta.

You may look up one day and see his jersey in our rafters.

[High5]

I didn't know Borderline Allstars can be 7 time allstars??  That's downright disrespectful 5.  I know you're trying to devalue Joe.. but to call him Borderline allstar is laughable.   Maybe Borderline Hall of famer?

 

In his best year, Smoove was a borderline allstar.  Joe carried the mantle of allstar 6 times for Atlanta.

You may look up one day and see his jersey in our rafters.

 

Joe averaged 16/3/3 last season. He's averaged about 17/3.5/3.5 over the last 4 seasons. Borderline All Star is me being generous. 

[Diesel]

On the plus side, I'm really enjoying the nothing we have on the court this year.   In fact, I prefer the nothing to the old something.

 

That's the problem with Hawks fans.  We're so used to nothing that we embrace it.  Pretty soon it will be back to the draft lottery parties again.  At some point Mac, you ought to want more than NOTHING.

 

I was listening to an interview on NBATV.  They were talking about a conversation that Kobe had with the media and he said "Win at all Cost In LA" or something to that effect.  They came back to Rick Fox and he talked about Championship Cities have the demand that their team WIN and Losing is not an option.  He then went on to say that other cities will settle.  They will settle for we had a good run and made the playoffs.  They will settle for we lost in the first round.  It really made me look at the Hawks.  Our Ownership and fanbase has been one of constantly settling for just getting to the playoffs and  building for the future.  None of these Build for the future teams ever win championships.  That's the problem.  Your statement of being happy with a 38 win team is a fine example of why we're not going anywhere.  Unfortunately, the powers that be agree more with you that we should have this longrange strategy to the championship instead of making strong moves and having high expectations.

Ferry was the epitome of a long range strategy, winning is not that important kind of guy.  This man gave away PICKS!  And you praise him.  He let value get away for nothing and you want to give him monuments. Then while he was working to prove his theory that you don't need stars to win... he told you to relax and you did.

 

[Diesel]

Joe averaged 16/3/3 last season. He's averaged about 17/3.5/3.5 over the last 4 seasons. Borderline All Star is me being generous. 

 

Yeah, playing with KG and Pierce... However,  I was looking at that allstar game roster.  You know Chris Bosh was on the same team.  His last three seasons was something like 12 ppg, 12 ppg, and 15 ppg...  I guess he's borderline too?

[macdaddy]

That's the problem with Hawks fans.  We're so used to nothing that we embrace it.  Pretty soon it will be back to the draft lottery parties again.  At some point Mac, you ought to want more than NOTHING.

 

I was listening to an interview on NBATV.  They were talking about a conversation that Kobe had with the media and he said "Win at all Cost In LA" or something to that effect.  They came back to Rick Fox and he talked about Championship Cities have the demand that their team WIN and Losing is not an option.  He then went on to say that other cities will settle.  They will settle for we had a good run and made the playoffs.  They will settle for we lost in the first round.  It really made me look at the Hawks.  Our Ownership and fanbase has been one of constantly settling for just getting to the playoffs and  building for the future.  None of these Build for the future teams ever win championships.  That's the problem.  Your statement of being happy with a 38 win team is a fine example of why we're not going anywhere.  Unfortunately, the powers that be agree more with you that we should have this longrange strategy to the championship instead of making strong moves and having high expectations.

Ferry was the epitome of a long range strategy, winning is not that important kind of guy.  This man gave away PICKS!  And you praise him.  He let value get away for nothing and you want to give him monuments. Then while he was working to prove his theory that you don't need stars to win... he told you to relax and you did.

 

 

 

So many assumptions.  Please point out where I said I was happy with a 38 win team.   It's a lot more fun to watch than the Joe/Josh teams of epic on court stupidity and fan disdain though.   

 

Ferry doesn't have a theory that you win without stars.  That's your theory about Ferry.   There is nothing to back that up.   But you go to war with the army you have not the army you want.   There's 20 plus teams in the nba who equally 'don't get it' as well as you.  That's a lot of dumbass gms and scouts.   If it was easy everyone would do it.   

 

[High5]

Yeah, playing with KG and Pierce... However,  I was looking at that allstar game roster.  You know Chris Bosh was on the same team.  His last three seasons was something like 12 ppg, 12 ppg, and 15 ppg...  I guess he's borderline too?

 

Those 4 year numbers include the Hawks with/without Horford and the Nets with/without PP and KG. Also, PP/KG/DW combined for 34 points last season, so that's not quite the same as making sacrifices on a championship team featuring LeBron and Wade. (and those weren't Bosh's numbers). Joe is a borderline All Star caliber player no matter which way you slice it. 

[AHF]

Joe has been a borderline All-Star guy his whole career.  He is probably the single biggest beneficiary of the lack of depth at SG, similar to seeing guys like Jamaal Magloire and Dale Davis make the All-Star team when big men were short.  

 

For a guy whose primary talent is scoring, here are his All-Star laurels:

 

2014 2-7, 5 points

2012 DNP Due to Injury

2011 4-11, 11 points

2010 4-8, 10 points

2009 0-4, 0 points

2008 1-2, 3 points

2007 5-9, 12 points

 

So in 7 All-Star selections where his team has scored an average of around 150 points he has racked up an average of 6.8 ppg on 39% FG%.

 

That seems like the definition of a borderline All-Star - one who backs into the game through lack of competition and then makes no significant impact.  Kudos to Joe for being consistently good enough to be one of the last reserves selected for the team but let's not pretend he was something other than that.  

[Diesel]

So many assumptions.  Please point out where I said I was happy with a 38 win team.  

 

 

Did you not say that you were "enjoying the nothing that we have on the court"???

 

You did say that...  Right?

In other words, you were happy with what we got!

 

You can try to be dismissive and mention a Joe Josh this and a Joe Josh that however, that's not the point nor was that the plan.  We had better OPTIONS MAC.  Options that did not include firesaling the team and avoiding the lottery?  But you enjoy this idea of a start from the ground up give everybody a chance shit that we're doing?

At the end of the day... we may make the playoffs (this year will be harder because other teams have improved) but we will taut having had a strong season and needing to resign Sap so that we can do it all again next year because Dennis will be better  or Payne will improve or because we will be used to Bud's system of selflessness.  And you will gear up again and jump back on the treadmill.  And you will still enjoy your trip to nowhere.

[Diesel]

Joe has been a borderline All-Star guy his whole career.  He is probably the single biggest beneficiary of the lack of depth at SG, similar to seeing guys like Jamaal Magloire and Dale Davis make the All-Star team when big men were short.  

 

For a guy whose primary talent is scoring, here are his All-Star laurels:

 

2014 2-7, 5 points

2012 DNP Due to Injury

2011 4-11, 11 points

2010 4-8, 10 points

2009 0-4, 0 points

2008 1-2, 3 points

2007 5-9, 12 points

 

So in 7 All-Star selections where his team has scored an average of around 150 points he has racked up an average of 6.8 ppg on 39% FG%.

 

That seems like the definition of a borderline All-Star - one who backs into the game through lack of competition and then makes no significant impact.  Kudos to Joe for being consistently good enough to be one of the last reserves selected for the team but let's not pretend he was something other than that.  

 

Wow.  You pay attention to the statline in an Allstar game??

 

[AHF]

Wow.  You pay attention to the statline in an Allstar game??

 

 

 

His statlines outside of All-Star games doesn't do him any favors in trying to make out like his is a top player.  

 

2006-07

37th PER

87th in WS/48

 

2007-08

58th PER

91st in WS/48

 

2008-09

45th PER

83rd in WS/48

 

2009-10

31st PER

51st in WS/48

 

2010-11

93rd PER

96th in WS/48

 

2011-12

68th PER

60th in WS/48

 

2012-13

184th PER (not a typo)

203rd in WS/48 (not a typo)

 

2013-14

136th PER (not a typo)

203rd in WS/48 (not a typo)

 

Hope you have something better than Dawson on this if you want to make  your case.

[Gray Mule]

Diesel really wants Marvin back!  He's just using JJ as an excuse not to say so.

 

Sarcasm.

 

In reality, JJ was and is a very good player but with a super star contract  Had his

salary been reasonable, he would probably still be here.  That was not his fault

but the Hawks.  They were the ones who set it all up for him to get mega $$$.

 

Did he lead us to the promise land?  Has he lead his current team there?  Did the

Hawks or his current team draw scads of fans just because he was playing?

 

How many of the current Hawks would we have to give to get him back?  His

salary would demand at least two or three players, maybe more.