Watching Greg Monroe for the 10th time this year last night said A LOT

[NBASupes]

A. He's not a true PF or C. He's a tweener. He can't protect the rim. He struggles at hedging PnR's and struggles away from the basket.

 

B. He moves around very well, just not very effective. I think he would be a better fit on a high BBIQ team. I think him and Horf would be a great offensive tandem and him and Sap would be a very good offensive tandem considering the personnel we have.

 

C. Sap and Horf will struggle on defense with him, especially Sap. He is a poor hedger and doesn't have the athletic ability to guard PnR or PnP's. I do like the fact that he has the length to protect the paint and what I like most is his strength when challenged in iso situations. He can actually defend NBA bigs in the post 1v1 with consistent success. I like his defensive BBIQ as well. I see some Antić in him and even a little Zaza. Antić moves much better on defense than Monroe. Much better. It's crazy how good he moves on offense compared to defense. The John Wall, Kyrie and Jeff Teague effect. Antić is a superior hedger. @atlien talked about this with Horford in the recent thread about rebounds.

 

Bingo rebounding is a team Stat. You box score bandits are killing me. I can go pull up multiple nights this year for Marc Gasol and AL Jefferson where they had less than 5 rebounds. It happens. Sometimes your boxing out leads to others getting rebounds.

Al's rebounds are really down because he is constantly rotating and hedging to stop penetration from Teague's and Korver's men. His blocks are up but if you're challenging shots you're not always in position to rebound. When AL steps out to help our leaky perimeter defenders Noone was rotating to box out his man. Josh used to play this role leaving AL to rebound.

In tonight's game the actually did rotate, hence Demarre's and Thabo's inflated rebounding numbers.

 

 

D. Once again, he is a poor rim protector but defend the paint well like Antić. Offensively, he is a good post scorer. He uses his size decently but NEEDS space to operate. Good passer. Very good court vision. Would be best if he played next to a stretch PF with some defensive skill that he clearly lacks. A good hedger, a rim protector but on offense that player needs range. He seems like a perfect defensive C fit for Josh Smith at PF but DET doesn't use Smith at PF like they should and it's a perfect offensive fit thanks to reason we all know Josh Smith for.

 

E. Does a good job with setting picks and moving well. He's not as good as Drummond at it but he's effective to a degree.

 

 

Fit for our team: 88 out of 100. Good fit, not an excellent fit. He lacks range, is a tweener and can be limited on defense. His pluses are he can defend centers like Antić, can score in the paint consistently, high BBIQ as well as a good passer and has very good court vision.

 

Fit: As long as Korver is on the floor, he will fit in well regardless who we have on the court as a big (Antić, Horf, Sap, etc) but

 

Horf: Near elite fit close to the Z-Bo/Gasol pairing. 92 out of 100. Much higher than Sap and Horf's 78 rated fit by me. On offense, they fit perfectly. Probably one the best fits in the NBA for Horf if not the best. This should improve Horf's impact to levels we haven't seen before. I will say Horf will be batting any PF including A. Davis as one of the best players in the NBA and best players in the NBA. Excellent fit for Horf as well as Monroe. Defensively, I see some issues. Monroe like Sap struggles at hedging. In fact, he is a worse hedger than Sap. One of the worse I've seen in the NBA. Really hurts team defense which is vital for many NBA teams especially an undersized one like the Hawks. He is undersized, he isn't a true center. He is a tweener favoring center like Antić. So we would still be undersize regardless. While Horf/Sap is better individually on defense than Horf/Monroe, Horf/Monroe fit better on D and fit A LOT better on offense.

 

Sap: Good fit. 84 out of 100. Close to the Kevin Love/Pek pairing. I see this as a good fit. Both received elite fits on offense. Both can play off of each other. Sap has the range. Sap can pass. Both can score in the post. Both should be a much better tandem than what they have right now. Easily the best offensive fit for Sap in the NBA outside of Marc Gasol. Defensively, oh boy. These two are a trainwreck. Lack of hedging will remind you of Salt Lake City when it was Sap/Al Jeff and lack of rim protection will scare the crap of you. It's almost a wish that you can platoon them Monroe for Antić on D and Monroe for O. The obvious is ether player can hedge well and that we are easily exposed on D due to our perimeter D not being better than just solid. Monroe's lack of rim protection hurts him with Horford but kills him with Millsap. You have to be a good team defender to play with Sap. You have to be or we are going to be exposed. Overall, this should work extremely well on one end of the court and that reminds me of Love/Pek. It should defensively a joke like Love/Pek as well and Pek is a superior paint protector to Monroe. Both are bad rim protectors. Still a much better fit than Sap/Horf. Unquestionable about that.

 

Overall, Monroe trade to our team improves our team. He's a very good fit. With him and Horford, we will be much better overall. With him and Sap, we will be better than we are now. It's a good idea to trade for him but there are drawbacks as well. He doesn't turn us into a contender. With Horf, it's possible in time but right now, I can't promise that. With Horf, he's getting healthy again and usually the recovery for Hoop shape from a serious injury is usually 2-3 months. Considering this is his 1st month, we have time to spare.

 

I have been impress of late with the play of Brandon Jennings as well. He sucked last night but this season, he's been their best player on BOTH sides of the floor on a consistent basis. BUT, no one is really consistent on their team. It's a mess right now and it's funny seeing Smoove at SF, Monroe and Andre in the post and they get in each others way more than Sap and Horf who get in each others way often on offense.

 

Drummond has been a mess this year but that's personnel. Smoove has NO business at SF. He needs to be a 6th man. They need a legit SF who is decent. They need a stretch PF who good skills. Atlanta and Detroit seem like the perfect trade partners. They have bigs. We have decent SF's (DMC and Thabo) and good to very good stretch PF's (Sap and Horf). Put Jonas Jerebko in the deal is something we could also use. We are a tad short of legit PF depth. Sorry but Payne is too raw for our offense this yr like Dennis last yr.

[NBASupes]

I would like to add one more paragraph:

 

Josh Smith

Fit DET: 62 out of 100.

 

What is wrong with Smoove you say. I've always stated, if you don't have Smoove in a good fit, you are better off not getting him at all or using him as a 6th man.

 

Smoove is still a very talent player. I've seen that but Detroit is a mess. Two bigs who defend outside the paint poorly in the paint. Smoove at SF not being used correctly. Him and Drummond kinda of like doing some of the same things defensively except Smoove Smoove is much better at them than Andre. Smoove gets in Drummond and Monroe's way on offense. Smoove can only play with a stretch 5. Smoove would look great with Antić and consistently very good or great with Brook Lopez(healthy). He just doesn't fit so you can see his strengths and you really so nothing but a bunch of weaknesses. It would be a good idea for DET to offer Jennings and Smoove for Deron but Jennings might be too valuable for that albatross deal either way. Smoove actually has gotten better this year than last. I see him in great shape. Looks great athletically but that fit is horrendous for Smith. It makes him look like a scrub. A 62 fit should only be guys who are boardline NBA players who get legit minutes like Hollis Thompson or Marshon Brooks. Even scrubs don't get 62's because they are rarely used in a NBA game.

 

A 62 out of 100 is a terrible fit. The Drummond/Monroe fit isn't much better. It's a 70 out of 100. Which is barely decent. Detroit needs shooters, two way players, and a good stretch big. Smoove is a two way big but he's a terrible offensive SF. He needs to be at PF with a stretch center. Not too many of those. Atlanta kinda got away till it matters with their Smoove/stretch 4 tandem which always failed in the playoffs.

[Guest]

Greg Monroe sucks. I've been saying this for over a year. I never want him to be a Hawk.

[Admin]

Monroe is a terrible defender. He's got some skills on offense but nothing to brag about. Drummond is the only big that I'd want from Detroit. And I'd also like to add that I no longer have any interest in KCP. 

 

If I didn't know any better I'd think our good friend @Wretch wrote this post. 

 

BTW hope you're doing well if you read this buddy. 

[Sothron]

Monroe does not suck and he is only bad on defense when forced to play PF. He has absolutely no awareness or lateral quickness to play PF on defense. He can only play center IMO with a good weak side blocker at PF to put next to him. Monroe and Josh Smith make a lot more sense than Drummond + either of the other two actually.

 

If we traded for Greg it would have to be Millsap we gave up and kept Horf at PF. Monroe is the worst shot blocking big man in the NBA, I think he's down to like .2 blocks a game now in this season. But he can rebound and can defend the low post. Just can not block a shot and definitely is not going to come over on weak side help to block a shot.

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

I'm probaby the biggest Monroe supporter on these boards, but I agree with most of what you said.  Monroe is a tweener and worst kind of tweener - 4/5.  He's not athletic which suggests he's a center, but he doesn't have defensive ability to defend the paint.  Pistons try to play him at the 4, but he doesn't have the jump shot on offense nor does he have the quickness on defense to defend the 4.  He doesn't want to play outside of 12 feet.

 

I don't want Greg Monroe because I think he going to be juggernaut star for us and be unstoppable, but because I believe he fits us.  He is a system player; not some elite Karl-Malone type player.  He needs a team around him that compliments his game (which he doesn't have in Detroit).  He needs 3pt shooters around him and a 4 that can hit in the midrange to space the floor.  He needs a team that swings the ball around and a team that needs a guy to clean up the glass after missed shots.  He plays the way the Hawks play and gives us what we desperately need.  Bud's system is based on shooting, passing, and playing inside-out.  Greg's one of the best passing big men in the league; Chris Webber good.  Although his shooting and defense is a huge question, he fixes our post-play and rebounding issues.  And Horford/Sap isn't that good defensively.  When the Hawks are playing GOAT defense, they are communicating and playing with a little scrappiness.  I noticed on plays where we look bad defensively, it's like we just give up or look lost.  It's not due to lack of skill.  And Greg's better defensive years were BEFORE Drummond showed up and Monroe started at center with undersized Jason Maxiell next to him.  The best position for Greg Monroe is center.  I believe Monroe would be an All-Star for us, but not because of his skill alone, but the way we play fits him so well too.  And while he is only making $5.5 mil/yr, I believe he would be worth the risk.

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

I just see Greg's passing ability meshing with what we do and his post-play and rebounding fixing our two biggest concerns.  We give up shooting at the center to fix those concerns.  On defense, I do worry, but defense is mostly effort over skill.  It's not like Horford is defending those centers any better.

[benhillboy]

Sap for Monroe is a no go. Sap's IQ, durability, ability to put it on the floor, and range is much more valuable than anything Monroe can bring to the table, making him a matchup nightmare for about a third of the league's front courts. Besides length the man has no weaknesses at the 4.

Monroe has been groomed to be a loser so I'm good on buddy. If we had to part with a 4, I'd say Al. I love what his PNP with Jeff does for the offense, but it seems as if he's only going to get weaker up top, Sap probably benches twice as much now. I'd prefer a 7 foot defender on the cheap like a Robin Lopez or Verajao with a nice pick thrown in. The reluctance of Bud to run Moose and the retarded development of Payne is hurting, I hope both change sooner than later.

Edited November 22, 2014 by benhillboy

[cam1218]

Sap for Monroe is a no go. Sap's IQ, durability, ability to put it on the floor, and range is much more valuable than anything Monroe can bring to the table, making him a matchup nightmare for about a third of the league's front courts. Besides length the man has no weaknesses at the 4.

Monroe has been groomed to be a loser so I'm good on buddy. If we had to part with a 4, I'd say Al. I love what his PNP with Jeff does for the offense, but it seems as if he's only going to get weaker up top, Sap probably benches twice as much now. I'd prefer a 7 foot defender on the cheap like a Robin Lopez or Verajao with a nice pick thrown in. The reluctance of Bud to run Moose and the retarded development of Payne is hurting, I hope both change sooner than later.

I was willing to trade Millsap for Monroe (plus a pick) during the offseason. Horford was untouchable (more or less) in my eyes. I don't know if I would keep Horford over Sap at this point.

I'm one of Horfords biggest fans but I just can't imagine us without Millsap. It's only 11 games into the season so I'm still hoping Horford finds his place in the offense and changes my mind.

[Admin]

Monroe does not suck and he is only bad on defense when forced to play PF. He has absolutely no awareness or lateral quickness to play PF on defense. He can only play center IMO with a good weak side blocker at PF to put next to him. Monroe and Josh Smith make a lot more sense than Drummond + either of the other two actually.

 

If we traded for Greg it would have to be Millsap we gave up and kept Horf at PF. Monroe is the worst shot blocking big man in the NBA, I think he's down to like .2 blocks a game now in this season. But he can rebound and can defend the low post. Just can not block a shot and definitely is not going to come over on weak side help to block a shot.

 

So you're saying that at C, Monroe all of a sudden doesn't have a low IQ and can hedge properly on PnRs and can chase the ball handler if necessary? Because there's a great article I posted in the offseason, I believe by Grantland, that breaks down how poor he is defensively at both positions. 

[Sothron]

So you're saying that at C, Monroe all of a sudden doesn't have a low IQ and can hedge properly on PnRs and can chase the ball handler if necessary? Because there's a great article I posted in the offseason, I believe by Grantland, that breaks down how poor he is defensively at both positions. 

He's a better defender at center and the article you mention even said as much. His main problems are when they play him at PF and having to defend stretch fours. That's when he goes from average to bad to just really bad.

[Admin]

He's a better defender at center and the article you mention even said as much. His main problems are when they play him at PF and having to defend stretch fours. That's when he goes from average to bad to just really bad.

I'm fairly sure the article does not say he's a good defender at C. Perhaps he's better than possibly the worst defender at PF in the NBA when he's at C but that's a far cry from acceptable D. He's only good at D when he can stand in the paint and defend a stationary target. Make him defend a pick or come out on a stretch big and he's worse than any big in the league.

[Sothron]

I'm fairly sure the article does not say he's a good defender at C. Perhaps he's better than possibly the worst defender at PF in the NBA when he's at C but that's a far cry from acceptable D. He's only good at D when he can stand in the paint and defend a stationary target. Make him defend a pick or come out on a stretch big and he's worse than any big in the league.

 

I didn't say he was a good defender. I said he was a better defender at C than at PF and that was what your article from last year talked about. He is simply atrocious defending stretch 4s and as a result should never play the PF position in the NBA. When he's at center and asked to defend the other team's primary low post guy he's not too bad.

[JTB]

Wow this is a great thread! I too support Greg Monroe and actually think he's a great fit here under coach bud and would love to have him on this team!

But the problem is who do we trade to get him? I know over the off season we discussed this and we all said Sap would be the one traded...well it's 11 games in the season and Sap is playing way better than horford. In fact horford looks like the one we should trade over Sap as of right now.

Anyways who do we trade to get this deal done is the problem. I'm leaning towards keeping horford over Sap though Sap is obviously playing better than him but then again I think about horford injury history and it makes me want to get rid of him now before something else happens.

[JTB]

Monroe is a terrible defender. He's got some skills on offense but nothing to brag about. Drummond is the only big that I'd want from Detroit. And I'd also like to add that I no longer have any interest in KCP.

If I didn't know any better I'd think our good friend @Wretch wrote this post.

BTW hope you're doing well if you read this buddy.

Not gon lie I agree that Monroe is a terrible defender but I think you are under estimating his "some skills on offense"...if you watch Monroe he is a pure offensive low post threat every night especially under a coach like Budenholzer. Many tend to think he could be a legit all star because his rare ability in today's nba to score in the post. If you look at his numbers right now you see him avg 15pts , 10rebs those numbers instantly go up especially his points per game.

This team needs a young big who is great at scoring in the post! They also need a young big who can protect the rim and grab a ton of boards....well Monroe does two of those things very well and good enough to get him attention as an all star player! I'm not going to get into his elite passing ability as a center I'm just going to say go watch him on YouTube.

Last I think it's time fur this team to do something! Last year I complained about getting Asik cause his offense ability is atrocious but looking at Monroe Gus defense ability is atrocious...there's no perfect center available out there but I rather roll with a center that can give me consistent 20 point games in the low post (Monroe) than one that just grabs rebounds in Asik.

We all should be waiting this Monroe kid cause as if right now we are still a shooting team other than Teague and Millsap getting post points. We need a consistent low post scorer!

[Admin]

I didn't say he was a good defender. I said he was a better defender at C than at PF and that was what your article from last year talked about. He is simply atrocious defending stretch 4s and as a result should never play the PF position in the NBA. When he's at center and asked to defend the other team's primary low post guy he's not too bad.

He's a smelly pile of poop as a defender at PF. At C he's the same except has some Febreze sprayed on him so it doesnt seem as bad. Either way he's an awful defender if he has to move his feet more than a couple of steps.

[Admin]

Not gon lie I agree that Monroe is a terrible defender but I think you are under estimating his "some skills on offense"...if you watch Monroe he is a pure offensive low post threat every night especially under a coach like Budenholzer. Many tend to think he could be a legit all star because his rare ability in today's nba to score in the post. If you look at his numbers right now you see him avg 15pts , 10rebs those numbers instantly go up especially his points per game.

This team needs a young big who is great at scoring in the post! They also need a young big who can protect the rim and grab a ton of boards....well Monroe does two of those things very well and good enough to get him attention as an all star player! I'm not going to get into his elite passing ability as a center I'm just going to say go watch him on YouTube.

Last I think it's time fur this team to do something! Last year I complained about getting Asik cause his offense ability is atrocious but looking at Monroe Gus defense ability is atrocious...there's no perfect center available out there but I rather roll with a center that can give me consistent 20 point games in the low post (Monroe) than one that just grabs rebounds in Asik.

We all should be waiting this Monroe kid cause as if right now we are still a shooting team other than Teague and Millsap getting post points. We need a consistent low post scorer!

Monroe will never give you a consistent 20 at C as he's never averaged more than 16 and that was prior to Drummond (although he did start 10 games that year) and Josh. You're confusing his low post game with that of Al Jefferson, who's actually extremely skilled with his back to the basket. Monroe is a very solid passer at C, that's about all he's got going for himself offensively.

[Guest]

Monroe will never give you a consistent 20 at C as he's never averaged more than 16 and that was prior to Drummond (although he did start 10 games that year) and Josh. You're confusing his low post game with that of Al Jefferson, who's actually extremely skilled with his back to the basket. Monroe is a very solid passer at C, that's about all he's got going for himself offensively.

So I take it you miss @Northcyde huh? You said the magic words, Al "cookie monster" Jefferson...:-/

[Admin]

So I take it you miss @Northcyde huh? You said the magic words, Al "cookie monster" Jefferson...:-/

 

I can't deny it anymore. @TheNorthCydeRises is right about Al Jefferson. I don't like that he's so slow up and down the court and he's not the type of defender I'd want at C but his post game is undeniable. He's probably the best low post scoring C in the game and I think he's gotten even better in Charlotte. 

[Guest]

I can't deny it anymore. @TheNorthCydeRises is right about Al Jefferson. I don't like that he's so slow up and down the court and he's not the type of defender I'd want at C but his post game is undeniable. He's probably the best low post scoring C in the game and I think he's gotten even better in Charlotte.

First off, pardon me. I went old school with Northcyde and forgot the symbol is now @TheNorthCydeRises... Secondly I agree, Jefferson is one of the best post players in the league, his footwork in the post is very old school ala Kevin McHale and the real post players of the past, a dying breed for sure. Woulda been nice to see what he could have done as a Hawk under Bud. Funny how I associate some of our members with certain players..North is Jefferson while Pssshhrrr is Monroe...coachx is Payne ..Supe is Gary Payton and Karl Malone (I mean Schröder and Horford, but he upgraded from oj mayo)...Jaybird is Duncan...I've got a lot more, just not coming to me right now. Lol...oh..Benhilly is Joe Johnson..

Edited November 23, 2014 by Spud2Nique