It's early but... Is Bud a better coach than Pop?

[Admin]

I've noticed none of the other assistants that left San Antonio have had any success putting in the Spurs system but we've thrived in it and even changed it and improved it. We're putting up a Spursian winning % and doing it without hall of fame players. Hell we have one lotto pick, two late first round picks and two 2nd round picks in our starting lineup and a roster littered with journeymen. We know Bud was a big part of creating the Spurs system and he was the reason they got Kawhi and maybe even more players. So I'm wondering if the impossible is true and that Bud may actually be the better coach?

[NBASupes]

Honestly, Bud is the most talented coach in the NBA but is he the best? No. That belongs to Pop. Carlisle, Doc, Thibs also belong in the discussion. Bud is with D. Casey, Q. Snyder, J. Kidd and J. Hornecek as the new wave of elite coaching talents. I am not buying Steve Kerr but his assistants are elite though.

[LucastheThird]

I think Bud has a chance to be the better coach when it's all said and done. He's setup pretty nicely here in Atlanta and in only his second year has this team looking like a solid title contender. With the upwards trend he has going, I think its possible for him to win 5 or 6 titles in two decades.

[macdaddy]

It would be great if that's true.  I've been wondering about that myself but of course you can't really answer until Bud has sustained success.   Can he do this with any group of players or did we just happen to assemble some really good, hard working players that understand the system?   Frankly it was evident last year what a great coach he is.  Now it is showing in our record.

[JETSET]

Honestly, Bud is the most talented coach in the NBA but is he the best? No. That belongs to Pop. Carlisle, Doc, Thibs also belong in the discussion. Bud is with D. Casey, Q. Snyder, J. Kidd and J. Hornecek as the new wave of elite coaching talents. I am not buying Steve Kerr but his assistants are elite though.

Doc and Thibs are incredibly overrated.

 

Top 3 coaches in the league are:

Bud

Pop/Carlisle

 

I'm confident that Bud played a far greater role in the Spurs success than any one knows.  I will take him over every coach in the league.

[Guest]

I've noticed none of the other assistants that left San Antonio have had any success putting in the Spurs system but we've thrived in it and even changed it and improved it. We're putting up a Spursian winning % and doing it without hall of fame players. Hell we have one lotto pick, two late first round picks and two 2nd round picks in our starting lineup and a roster littered with journeymen. We know Bud was a big part of creating the Spurs system and he was the reason they got Kawhi and maybe even more players. So I'm wondering if the impossible is true and that Bud may actually be the better coach?

Maybe those coaches chose not to implement the system. Want to make their own mark.  We are being called Spurs East, maybe they didn't want that.  Additionally, having a GM in Danny Ferry who has played in the system and was in the front office bring the system over was easier.  Sam Hinkie in Philly has a total different mindset from DF, he wants his stamp on the team.  Another thing,  those other coaches have very young teams, they want to make their mark, they won't sacrifice and pass up good shots for teammates to get better shots.  We have a range of players from young vets and older vets and young players.  

 

I was reading Bud's presser just this morning after the Hawks signed him.

 

He's planning on bringing elements of the Spurs' blueprint to Atlanta, with the most important having little to do with X's and O's.

 

"I think the most important thing that you can take from coach Popovich in handling young players and really handling all players," Budenholzer said. "He wants competitors. That's the card that I want to call on in dealing with all of the Atlanta Hawks. As we work and we put things in and we work with young, old, new, returning, that competitive spirit is running through their veins and throughout practices and throughout games. That's going to be the most important thing. Pop' cares about people, he cares about his players. They need to know that we care about them. When you care about them you can push them. You can demand of them. So those are probably the two biggest things that I would take from coach Pop and bring with me to Atlanta."

 

One considerable factor in the Hawks' ability to pry Budenholzer away from the Spurs is his close relationship with Ferry, who played in San Antonio for three seasons (2000-2003), then came back and served as vice president of basketball operations for two years (2010-2012).

 

"He's a good friend," Budenholzer said. "We have kids that are similar ages. It's been a friendship that I've valued and is part of what makes this a special opportunity."

 

While they are good friends, Ferry expects that they won't always see eye-to-eye and expects plenty of times that they'll go nose-to-nose.

 

"His acumen, his understanding of the players and the game is something that I value highly. The idea of how he wants to play, the clarity of the system that he wants to bring I value highly," Ferry said. "That being said, we'll have great arguments and debates with our staffs together. But we will be unified after those debates. We've gone after it a few times. Those are healthy. I want that. I want to be challenged and I want to challenge him. Ultimately that puts the Atlanta Hawks in the best position to succeed. That's what we both want."

 

[DS17Fanboy]

Bud his facial expression sometimes worries me, as if he's about to have a stroke. But thats prolly his basketball-brain going full tilt.

 

The good thing is that he has that facial expression allot.

[Guest]

Bitter Bud Face.

[NBASupes]

Doc and Thibs are incredibly overrated.

 

Top 3 coaches in the league are:

Bud

Pop/Carlisle

 

I'm confident that Bud played a far greater role in the Spurs success than any one knows.  I will take him over every coach in the league.

I disagree. Thibs and Doc are elite coaches. His development of players is second to none. Doc has won on every team regardless of personnel. I respect all of these guys. 

[Jody23]

Maybe those coaches chose not to implement the system. Want to make their own mark. We are being called Spurs East, maybe they didn't want that. Additionally, having a GM in Danny Ferry who has played in the system and was in the front office bring the system over was easier. Sam Hinkie in Philly has a total different mindset from DF, he wants his stamp on the team. Another thing, those other coaches have very young teams, they want to make their mark, they won't sacrifice and pass up good shots for teammates to get better shots. We have a range of players from young vets and older vets and young players.

I was reading Bud's presser just this morning after the Hawks signed him.

Seeing the part in bold about his relationship with Ferry just makes my stomach turn. Our current owners are numbskulls for this and I'm not impressed with the new candidates.

Regarding the topic, it's an interesting question. Obviously Bud has a way to go. But, considering what he's doing with this team, he's making a case for himself.

[benhillboy]

Thibs is losing some clout with me the way he runs his players in the ground and allows his worst defender in Rose to do whatever he wants and be the pulse of the team, as poorly motivated as he is.

If the way the Clips play is any indication of their coaching, then Doc is very overrated IMO. Bringing his son to an already chemistry-challenged team is an even bigger indicator of his questionable decision-making, although the Orlando success relative to the roster be had was impressive and the Celtics Championship roster is one of the greatest in history, few points for that.

Carlisle is by far my favorite Non-Spur coach, but even he is a step below both. I worship Bud, but it's almost blasphemous to say he's better than his mentor. Bud was only a glimmer in Pop's eye when he won his first Ship. Only Pop, RC, or Danny could make that claim that Bud has exceeded his talent and preparation, even then I would take it with a grain of salt as just over-praise.

[Admin]

I honestly wouldn't put any coach outside of Pop ahead of Bud. Rivers and Thibs are so insanely overrated it's not even funny. Of course Pop has been doing this a lot longer but you gotta remember that about halfway through Bud's time there they completely changed their style of play to this pace and space model and who's to say that wasn't Bud's influence? 

[Spurs]

Bud better than Pop? Are you serious? My god the over reaction. He is behind Pop and Carlisle no doubt though. Number 3 for me in the league. Multiple rings as head honcho and at least 20 years of 50plus winning seasons in a loaded conference and like 10 conference finals at least. Then we'll talk about his legacy. Pretty high up there though. 

[Spurs]

I honestly wouldn't put any coach outside of Pop ahead of Bud. Rivers and Thibs are so insanely overrated it's not even funny. Of course Pop has been doing this a lot longer but you gotta remember that about halfway through Bud's time there they completely changed their style of play to this pace and space model and who's to say that wasn't Bud's influence? 

 

Until you actually bring some proof to the table, that's just homerism at best. 

[JETSET]

Bud better than Pop? Are you serious? My god the over reaction. He is behind Pop and Carlisle no doubt though. Number 3 for me in the league. Multiple rings as head honcho and at least 20 years of 50plus winning seasons in a loaded conference and like 10 conference finals at least. Then we'll talk about his legacy. Pretty high up there though. 

Let's not act like Pop is some perfect God of a coach.  I'm sure every one remembers the epic meltdown he had in Game 6 of the Finals 2 years ago.  I just watched him cost the Spurs a game against the Pistons last week. 

 

Spurs had missed 5 of 7 FTs late in the game.  They were still up 3 with 9 seconds left and Detroit was inbounding the ball.  Pop inexplicably calls for an intentional foul on Jodie Meeks who is a 93% FT shooter.  He makes both of them and the Pistons are down by 1.  They steal the inbounds pass and Jennings takes it for a game winning layup. 

 

Why on earth would you ever intentionally foul an automatic FT shooter in that spot.  It would clearly turn the game in to a FT shooting contest and your team had missed 5 of their last 7.  Just a terrible decision and it cost the Spurs a game.

[Spurs]

Let's not act like Pop is some perfect God of a coach.  I'm sure every one remembers the epic meltdown he had in Game 6 of the Finals 2 years ago.  I just watched him cost the Spurs a game against the Pistons last week. 

 

Spurs had missed 5 of 7 FTs late in the game.  They were still up 3 with 9 seconds left and Detroit was inbounding the ball.  Pop inexplicably calls for an intentional foul on Jodie Meeks who is a 93% FT shooter.  He makes both of them and the Pistons are down by 1.  They steal the inbounds pass and Jennings takes it for a game winning layup. 

 

Why on earth would you ever intentionally foul an automatic FT shooter in that spot.  It would clearly turn the game in to a FT shooting contest and your team had missed 5 of their last 7.  Just a terrible decision and it cost the Spurs a game.

 

Who even put them there in the first place? Who won it all last year with the most loopsided series ever in history and for the whole playoffs too. Who has 5 rings as head coach in the modern era?

 

You're talking about regular season games where Pop experiments and has always won 50plus games including a lock out season and went 37 and 13 in another lockout in 99 and won a title? You talking to me about regular season games? As a spurs fan, regular season games aren't much to talk about unless you haven't had much playoff success. We could careless if Pop uses his 2 point guard line-ups in the regular season. He experiments with his rotations and play calling. Do you understand that?

[Guest]

I honestly wouldn't put any coach outside of Pop ahead of Bud. Rivers and Thibs are so insanely overrated it's not even funny. Of course Pop has been doing this a lot longer but you gotta remember that about halfway through Bud's time there they completely changed their style of play to this pace and space model and who's to say that wasn't Bud's influence?

Spurs = Collaborative effort.

 

I've been interested in those questions for a long time but never thought I'd get an answer from the man himself. And then a few days ago J.R. Wilco sent me the audio from the pre-game Q&A that Pop had recently. Someone asked Gregg Popovich those questions. Here's what he answered:

"It's a motion offense. It's malleable. It's ever-changing, in the sense that when players are moving and the ball is moving, sometimes things happen on offense that you didn't even plan on, that players just do, and it becomes part of the offense. Other things, coaches may concoct them over in an offense because you watch enough film and you try to manipulate something and it becomes part of the offense. But basically, back in the late 90s, Brett (Brown), Bud (Mike Budenholzer) and I, and coach (Hank) Egan decided how we wanted to play, what kind of offense we wanted to use and we decided on a motion offense and put in the basics. And each year we would tweak it a little bit ourselves, we'd add something we saw the players do. So it evolved and continues to evolve. It doesn't stay exactly the same but the base is always there"

http://www.poundingt...-offense-system

[Guest]

Let's not act like Pop is some perfect God of a coach. I'm sure every one remembers the epic meltdown he had in Game 6 of the Finals 2 years ago. I just watched him cost the Spurs a game against the Pistons last week.

Spurs had missed 5 of 7 FTs late in the game. They were still up 3 with 9 seconds left and Detroit was inbounding the ball. Pop inexplicably calls for an intentional foul on Jodie Meeks who is a 93% FT shooter. He makes both of them and the Pistons are down by 1. They steal the inbounds pass and Jennings takes it for a game winning layup.

Why on earth would you ever intentionally foul an automatic FT shooter in that spot. It would clearly turn the game in to a FT shooting contest and your team had missed 5 of their last 7. Just a terrible decision and it cost the Spurs a game.

Until Bud at least has an opportunity to have a meltdown in a Game 6 Final, call a bad timeout, etc - I'm taking Pop.

Just last season we were questioning Bud's end of game coaching.

I'm excited to have Bud and the possibilities that lay ahead but let's not go overboard.

Edited January 13, 2015 by JayBirdHawk

[Admin]

Until you actually bring some proof to the table, that's just homerism at best. 

 

How could I possibly bring proof? Clearly I stated it as an open question. Can you prove or disprove?

 

And you can call it homerism if you want, which is perfectly fine, but you don't understand what life is like as a Hawks fan. This season (Bud's first with a full healthy lineup) is the best we have ever been. Until you understand how bad we've been, you can't understand how incredible that is. 

 

Granted I'm not saying what Bud has done this year or here with the Hawks compares with what Pop has made a career with. What I'm saying is that I don't know if Pop could have turned this group of players into the team that Bud has and that's a fair question to ask.

[Admin]

Spurs = Collaborative effort.

 

I've been interested in those questions for a long time but never thought I'd get an answer from the man himself. And then a few days ago J.R. Wilco sent me the audio from the pre-game Q&A that Pop had recently. Someone asked Gregg Popovich those questions. Here's what he answered:

"It's a motion offense. It's malleable. It's ever-changing, in the sense that when players are moving and the ball is moving, sometimes things happen on offense that you didn't even plan on, that players just do, and it becomes part of the offense. Other things, coaches may concoct them over in an offense because you watch enough film and you try to manipulate something and it becomes part of the offense. But basically, back in the late 90s, Brett (Brown), Bud (Mike Budenholzer) and I, and coach (Hank) Egan decided how we wanted to play, what kind of offense we wanted to use and we decided on a motion offense and put in the basics. And each year we would tweak it a little bit ourselves, we'd add something we saw the players do. So it evolved and continues to evolve. It doesn't stay exactly the same but the base is always there"

http://www.poundingt...-offense-system

 

Nice find JayBird. I'm curious who's decision it was to make them an uptempo team 5 or so years ago. I remember them just running folks out of games, which was a huge change from their deliberate and slow play the years before that.