SI Lee Jenkins article on Atlanta Hawks

[Peoriabird]

I've gone maybe a quarter of the way through and stopped. I had to post this hear here (edit: being an idiot and hearing things). It's a good one:

 

http://www.si.com/nba/2015/03/10/atlanta-hawks-jeff-teague-kyle-korver-mike-budenholzer

This article support what a lot of us were saying about Teague last year when many here were labeling him an inconsistent player.  Now we know that Teague was in a horrible stagnant offense under LD and transitioning under Bud.  Great article!

[DrReality]

I think FAs are gonna be lining up to play here now. Money shouldn't be too big an issue (if it is they eliminate themselves from the #BudPool immediately anyway) when they're confident they can compete for a title in Black Hollywood.

Agree and it will be the ones who fit the team personality that will be icing on the cake not the super stars

[Admin]

This article support what a lot of us were saying about Teague last year when many here were labeling him an inconsistent player. Now we know that Teague was in a horrible stagnant offense under LD and transitioning under Bud. Great article!

That doesn't discredit the FACT that he WAS inconsistent. But it is good to see there's a legit reason for how he's become so consistently better due to finally having good coaching. But let's not pretend that the past didn't happen.

[Admin]

Sigh, funny people on the Squawk.

DF got KILLED for signing these same players, because he couldn't lure the stars, but thank God that Bud was the one who wanted Sap, DMC, Thabo and Baze.

Can't have it both ways guys.

One of your best posts ever @JayBirdHawk and that's saying something as you've had at least 2-3 good ones over the years!

[benhillboy]

The poetic waxing about Teague's backstory did cloud some clear inaccuracies upon first read. I was scratching my head on the Al from Michigan thing and I was one of Drew's biggest supporters. His "Princeton" approach isn't BudBall for sure, but he did have us second in assists with decent defense and a dominant series win.

No need to bash the man, he got a unbelievably raw deal in Mikwaukee and works tor his inferior in Cleveland. We'll give SI a pass this time and an "A" for effort, knowing they don't have a large base of archives or knowledge on the Hawks. A publication of their status should have all their journalistic i's dotted and t's crossed.

Edited March 11, 2015 by benhillboy

[TheNorthCydeRises]

It's a poster that makes posts just to stir the pot and get a rise out of posters. There MO is just to piss people off and they don't mean a word they say.  They just do it for kicks and giggles. But it's definitely not a person that has a different opinion from your own...

 

That means no one ( at least none of the regulars ) are trolls.

[lethalweapon3]

We'll give SI a pass this time and an "A" for effort, knowing they don't have a large base of archives or knowledge on the Hawks. A publication of their status should have all their journalistic i's dotted and t's crossed.

 

Given that they've pinkslipped all of their in-house photographers, I think SI is pretty much down to just S these days. Or at least SIBSE (Sports Illustrated by Somebody Else).

 

~lw3

[Diesel]

Alright, let's moveon.org.

 

One nit-picky critique I had with the piece was this characterization of Larry:

 

 

Is that really fair to LD?

 

Granted, Brandon Knight didn't turn into The Second Coming of Jason Kidd in his first season under Drew's watch. But the Hawks' transition to passing and motion offense (albeit stunted by a certain player or two) began under LD.

 

Who is to say that the evolution out of ball-stopping offense was certain to regress for Teague in Milwaukee? The Bucks' assist tally dropped in Drew's first season, but that was more of a function of the talent already on the 15-67 team, coupled with Drew's fatal-flaw of being satisfied working with whatever roster his GM gives him.

 

Indeed, the Bucks are a better passing team under Kidd now (7th in NBA, up from 17th under Drew), but the move away from LD had more to do with the owner doing his own "coach-bud" a favor than any legitimate concerns about style of play. Now if this was about Teague somehow being saved from Woody's Knicks (dead-last in APG in 2012-13), I'd have little issue with that.

 

Jeff has of course ascended into All-Star strata under Bud. But his first foray into ball movement was in between the 2011-12 (last season with Joe around) and 2012-13 seasons, when Teague's assists went up from 4.9 per game (his 1st season as a starter) to 7.2, the same average as he has now in 2014-15. His usage% jumped up in that time from 19.1 to 23.0, but it's still well below the 25-26% range he's held under Bud's regime.

 

Jeff's percentage of 2-pointers (20.1%) and 3-pointers (66.7%) that were assisted this season are also down from 2012-13 under LD (21.3% and a career-high 71.9%, respectively).

 

Passing under Bud Ball has been magical, this year's 25.7 team APG (2nd in NBA) the most since Bob Weiss' ill-fated 1991-92 crew. Yet the only non-Bud Hawks team with at least 23 APG for a season in the past 20 years was the 2012-13 squad (24.5 APG, 2nd in NBA) from Larry's final season here. The Hawks never finished higher than 12th in assists with Woody at the helm, but in LD's seasons the team rose up the charts from 12th to 8th to 2nd.

 

It's why I concur with @hawksfanatic that SI's Jenkins took a well-written and appealing story and sprinkled some creative liberties into the narrative, to taste.

 

~lw3

 

LD was the offensive coordinator under Woody.  Moreover, even when Drew was HC, we still ran a lot of isolated PNRs.  I remember we'd pick and roll at the top of the key and nobody else would move.  Everybody would go to their spot and wait.   To see what we do now with pindowns and movement at every position most of the time is beautiful.  Night and Day in comparison.

[lethalweapon3]

LD was the offensive coordinator under Woody.  Moreover, even when Drew was HC, we still ran a lot of isolated PNRs.  I remember we'd pick and roll at the top of the key and nobody else would move.  Everybody would go to their spot and wait.   To see what we do now with pindowns and movement at every position most of the time is beautiful.  Night and Day in comparison.

 

I agree that LD bears responsibility for the festering of Woodyball: he was not just an assistant, he was THE top assistant. But the path out of Woodyball with Drew in charge began with the departures of Joe and Marvin-in-the-Corner (2012).

 

We got glimpses of what Drew could do even during the Woody era. When the Hawks would break out and push the pace in transition, we often crowed, "Must be that assistant guy, getting a chance to show what he can do!" Never mind the cheat-code plays that seemed to come out of thin air after Woody called a timeout. 

 

Alas, LD never got to see what this team could do without Josh (2013) and with someone as capable and willing-to-evolve as Sap (2014) taking his place. If Bud was stuck with Josh under contract, Smoove would find himself stapled to the bench until he either shape-shifted or demanded a trade out of town.

 

Still, as you noted, the PNRs where Teague fights through a screen to drive headfirst into a wall of bigs that didn't have to worry about Josh hanging out around Dominique WIlkins Lane was a hallmark of Larryball, his attempt to spin straw into gold. PNP with Al was not utilized as much, especially during LD's last two seasons (Al's first Pec Tear was in 2011). Meanwhile, Jeff's perimeter options to draw defenders out of the paint consisted of Kirk, Vlad, Jannero, Marvin, Willie, and the VetMins. And, of course, Smoove. Good luck, Jeff!

 

The additions of Kyle and Lou (2012) under Ferry helped Jeff make more hay out of the screens set for him, but that wasn't really improved upon until Bud came to town. Under Larry, and Woody, Plan A was it for Jeff.

 

(speaking of which, the Teague-Kyle conversation in the article: didn't that take place prior to playing under LD... not Bud? Another instance of journalistic license by the SI writer, perhaps?)

 

Purely my opinion, but Drew was also too loyal to his roster to demand changes, especially working with the window-dressing GM Sund. Without Ferry coming to town, LD would still be perfectly fine turning to Joe and his inextricable contract, and Jeff would be fine grooming himself into latter-years Bibby.

 

When it comes to comparisons, Woody was Night, Bud is Day. Larry was Dawn. But we'd still be stuck in Perpetual Dawn with LD running the show. Dusk if Joe and Josh were still here.

 

~lw3

[willthepureshooter]

Good article! I always felt Teague was more than what he displayed with Woody and Drew. It takes a mediocre coach to teach a player to be average. But it takes a great coach to turn that average mistake into an all star. As a former ballplayer, I've seen firsthand how bad coaching affects players. For a point guard to not know the names of different screens is seriously alarming and shows lack of fundamentals being taught by the former coach. Its proven that talent can win you games, but it can only get you so far. And that's why we stagnated in the playoffs under Woody and Drew when things tightened up in the playoffs.

Bud's an incredible coach that deserves a ton of credit for turning these players into a well working machine. He took a player (Demarre Carroll) thrown away by a future NBA Hall of Fame coach in George Karl and turned him into the MOST IMPROVED PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE. And he challenged himself even more by converting a Sixth Man shooting specialist into a defensive ball- hawking starter and first time all-star. Just look at how dominant our bench can be against top tier teams. Its truly amazing.

On another note.. The troll calling because people have different opinions than yours is a bit uncool. No one deserves to feel like they have to mask their opinions in order to be respected on this forum. I've been a poster here for about 5 years now, and lately I've become hesitant in my posting because I refuse to be disrespected because of my views. I've literally become a villain on this site. Lol. I'm sure we're all pretty passionate about our team and basketball in general, but let's be adult-like in our approach.

Hand down.. Man down..

Edited March 11, 2015 by willthepureshooter

[Admin]

Good article! I always felt Teague was more than what he displayed with Woody and Drew. It takes a mediocre coach to teach a player to be average. But it takes a great coach to turn that average mistake into an all star. As a former ballplayer, I've seen firsthand how bad coaching affects players. For a point guard to not know the names of different screens is seriously alarming and shows lack of fundamentals being taught by the former coach. Its proven that talent can win you games, but it can only get you so far. And that's why we stagnated in the playoffs under Woody and Drew when things tightened up in the playoffs.

Bud's an incredible coach that deserves a ton of credit for turning these players into a well working machine. He took a player (Demarre Carroll) thrown away by a future NBA Hall of Fame coach in George Karl and turned him into the MOST IMPROVED PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE. And he challenged himself even more by converting a Sixth Man shooting specialist into a defensive ball- hawking starter and first time all-star. Just look at how dominant our bench can be against top tier teams. Its truly amazing.

On another note.. The troll calling because people have different opinions than yours is a bit uncool. No one deserves to feel like they have to mask their opinions in order to be respected on this forum. I've been a poster here for about 5 years now, and lately I've become hesitant in my posting because I refuse to be disrespected because of my views. I've literally become a villain on this site. Lol. I'm sure we're all pretty passionate about our team and basketball in general, but let's be adult-like in our approach.

Hand down.. Man down..

 

Become a villain? I always thought you meant to be the villain here :)

 

Totally agree though there is no reason for anyone to be called a troll and doing so gets you an automatic 24 hour suspension. Nobody is beyond the law here. 

[HawkItus]

To be honest, as I read that entire article and came across that particular snippet I knew that you specifically (amongst others) would jump at it.  Lo' and behold, so let's not try to be coy about what drew you towards that specific quote and the action of posting it.....unless of course you can clarify to us that you had an entirely ulterior motive from the one that was as subtle as a jackhammer, in which case we'll owe you an apology.

 

 

Missed this earlier.  I quoted that portion as a testament to Bud's ability.  Guy's said everything from "he doesn't have time for player personnel" to "he is flat out not scouting players".  He obviously is and has been since even his time with the SPURS.  It wasn't a knock against ***** *****.   Take it as you will though.  I'm done being told what I'm thinking 

[Guest]

Good article! I always felt Teague was more than what he displayed with Woody and Drew. It takes a mediocre coach to teach a player to be average. But it takes a great coach to turn that average mistake into an all star. As a former ballplayer, I've seen firsthand how bad coaching affects players. For a point guard to not know the names of different screens is seriously alarming and shows lack of fundamentals being taught by the former coach. Its proven that talent can win you games, but it can only get you so far. And that's why we stagnated in the playoffs under Woody and Drew when things tightened up in the playoffs.

Bud's an incredible coach that deserves a ton of credit for turning these players into a well working machine. He took a player (Demarre Carroll) thrown away by a future NBA Hall of Fame coach in George Karl and turned him into the MOST IMPROVED PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE. And he challenged himself even more by converting a Sixth Man shooting specialist into a defensive ball- hawking starter and first time all-star. Just look at how dominant our bench can be against top tier teams. Its truly amazing.

On another note.. The troll calling because people have different opinions than yours is a bit uncool. No one deserves to feel like they have to mask their opinions in order to be respected on this forum. I've been a poster here for about 5 years now, and lately I've become hesitant in my posting because I refuse to be disrespected because of my views. I've literally become a villain on this site. Lol. I'm sure we're all pretty passionate about our team and basketball in general, but let's be adult-like in our approach.

Hand down.. Man down..

Woody said "Teague's job is to bring the ball up court and pass it to Joe." smh.  

This is what Player development is supposed to look like. Improve on the things you do well and cut back on the mistakes.

[Plainview1981]

How is milsap the undertaker? That's my big question stemming from the article

 

More like a bigger version of Daniel Bryan I would say. Or maybe Sheamus.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Hotlanta1981

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

WWE talk:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_tYh9zsIO0

[Admin]

WWE talk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_tYh9zsIO0

Oh man you know that got Hots fired up!!

[willthepureshooter]

Become a villain? I always thought you meant to be the villain here :)

Totally agree though there is no reason for anyone to be called a troll and doing so gets you an automatic 24 hour suspension. Nobody is beyond the law here.

Only on weekends lol

Edited March 12, 2015 by willthepureshooter