Delly from a Cavs fan perspective

[ClevelandRocks]

 

At this point in the sequence, Horford isn't trying to move away from Dellavedova.  They're side by side, with Horford holding his arm pulling him along for a ride as he steps to his left.  Unfortunately, Carroll is right in Dellavedova's path, tripping him.  When he begins to fall backwards, there is no space between he and Horford, which is why he ended up grazing Horford's right shin with his armpit.  And why wasn't there any space between he and Horford?  Look again at where Horford's left hand is positioned.

Upon further review, Horford's drag down was cheap but not especially dirty like an elbow from Mutumbo or Malone.  Based by his elbow afterward (which was dirty), I don't believe it was his intention to drag Dellavedova across Carroll or that he was even aware it happened.  It appeared that he was retaliating over what he believed was an attack on his legs.  He should not have been ejected.

Some Hawks fans will continue to say Dellavedova dived at his legs, but that's irrelevant because that's not what happened.  On the Cavs board I frequent, we have biased fans too.  I'm sure many here can identify with that.  I'm used to irrational behavior and accept it (like Dion Waiters becoming an All Star - hah!).  It's part of the human condition, unfortunately.

Good luck tonight and I just want to thank the mods for letting this Cavs fan post his take on here.  Peace.

[MaceCase]

Australian rules football is certainly not nonsense and it certainly does not breed divers and ankle miners.

True.

It is nonsense that American media believe that the two sports are even comparable. They are about as comparable to each other as they both are to American football.

It is also nonsense that their belief of him participating in a particular sport makes his actions on a basketball court acceptable. Dirty play is dirty play.

[nsacmercury]

I am a Cleveland fan. I was impressed with the Hawks fight in Game 3. That was a game I truly believed Atlanta was going to take (the final possession in regulation would have made me livid in your position).

 

My stance on Delly is rather predictable given my allegiances, and I might feel differently if I were a Hawks fan. I suspect Hawks fans might feel differently if Delly was on their team as well. But I will say Delly takes a lot of abuse from opposing teams that seems to go completely unnoticed/uncalled.

 

For all the talk of Delly being a dirty player though, I haven't seen anyone draw attention to this:

 

https://vine.co/v/eA9LhvIiWqj

 

That incident happened in Game 1, obviously before either of the incidents with Korver or Horford. From a Hawks perspective, how would you classify that play by Teague?

 

Good luck tonight.

[Guest]

I am a Cleveland fan. I was impressed with the Hawks fight in Game 3. That was a game I truly believed Atlanta was going to take (the final possession in regulation would have made me livid in your position).

 

My stance on Delly is rather predictable given my allegiances, and I might feel differently if I were a Hawks fan. I suspect Hawks fans might feel differently if Delly was on their team as well. But I will say Delly takes a lot of abuse from opposing teams that seems to go completely unnoticed/uncalled.

 

For all the talk of Delly being a dirty player though, I haven't seen anyone draw attention to this:

 

https://vine.co/v/eA9LhvIiWqj

 

That incident happened in Game 1, obviously before either of the incidents with Korver or Horford. From a Hawks perspective, how would you classify that play by Teague?

 

Good luck tonight.

 

If he were a Hawk I'd want him gone.  Dirty is dirty.

 

Teague's play was incidental contact.  Every guard pushes off in that scenario.  The elbow usually catches the opponent's chest.  That time it didn't.

 

If Teague had the history of happening to end up with his elbow to someone's face, like a certain guy always happens to end up at someone's knees, I'd have a different assessment.

[Wretch]

I am a Cleveland fan. I was impressed with the Hawks fight in Game 3. That was a game I truly believed Atlanta was going to take (the final possession in regulation would have made me livid in your position).

 

My stance on Delly is rather predictable given my allegiances, and I might feel differently if I were a Hawks fan. I suspect Hawks fans might feel differently if Delly was on their team as well. But I will say Delly takes a lot of abuse from opposing teams that seems to go completely unnoticed/uncalled.

 

For all the talk of Delly being a dirty player though, I haven't seen anyone draw attention to this:

 

https://vine.co/v/eA9LhvIiWqj

 

That incident happened in Game 1, obviously before either of the incidents with Korver or Horford. From a Hawks perspective, how would you classify that play by Teague?

 

Good luck tonight.

 

I understand people and their allegiances, but folks need to take a step back and be honest here.  It's clear that Horford took a shot at  Dellavadova. The ejection was a bit harsh, but that's a tech no question.  If you're honest, the right call is a technical foul for fighting/shoving - like this: https://vine.co/v/ebBrbqHqrFD- and the NBA needs to be consistent about it.  MAYBE this is a double tech considering the scrap, but certainly nobody debates that Horford did something wrong.

 

What you Cleveland guys have to understand is that this is not AT ALL typical of Al Horford.  Not hardly.  He is is always mixed up in the paint, scrapping for rebounds, and getting banged up...but in the 8 years we've watched him, this is a first.  A very curious and out of character first.  

 

Horf's a high character player.  For him to take a shot at a player like that means ONLY one thing - he was provoked.  That's your clue right there and is really the end of the conversation.

[Wretch]

https://vine.co/v/eA9LhvIiWqj

 

That incident happened in Game 1, obviously before either of the incidents with Korver or Horford. From a Hawks perspective, how would you classify that play by Teague?

 

Good luck tonight.

 

Also...that's a shot from Teague and a tech if it's caught.  Which is a point I raised earlier.  It's hard to call these in the heat of the moment and it's not possible to slow the game down to review all the contact that goes on.  Unless it's obvious, then it's something that has to be reviewed later.

 

In Delly's case though...he's not just taking a shot at a guy out of frustration.  He's trying to injure a player and put him out of the game.

[Wretch]

 

At this point in the sequence, Horford isn't trying to move away from Dellavedova.  They're side by side, with Horford holding his arm pulling him along for a ride as he steps to his left.  Unfortunately, Carroll is right in Dellavedova's path, tripping him.  When he begins to fall backwards, there is no space between he and Horford, which is why he ended up grazing Horford's right shin with his armpit.  And why wasn't there any space between he and Horford?  Look again at where Horford's left hand is positioned.

Upon further review, Horford's drag down was cheap but not especially dirty like an elbow from Mutumbo or Malone.  Based by his elbow afterward (which was dirty), I don't believe it was his intention to drag Dellavedova across Carroll or that he was even aware it happened.  It appeared that he was retaliating over what he believed was an attack on his legs.  He should not have been ejected.

Some Hawks fans will continue to say Dellavedova dived at his legs, but that's irrelevant because that's not what happened.  On the Cavs board I frequent, we have biased fans too.  I'm sure many here can identify with that.  I'm used to irrational behavior and accept it (like Dion Waiters becoming an All Star - hah!).  It's part of the human condition, unfortunately.

Good luck tonight and I just want to thank the mods for letting this Cavs fan post his take on here.  Peace.

 

What I see here is two guys tangled up.  That's playoff basketball and likely to be similar on almost every loose ball.  Nothing dirty going on by either guy there - and as I said earlier, it looks like Horford is pulling Delly.  What you need to do is review the contact that immediately followed this.  Delly fell, likely due to Horford's actions, but he used his momentum AND added to it by pushing with is right leg...and he aimed for Horf's knee.

 

There's a pause right after the contact...and right there you can see Horford deciding to retaliate.  That pause is what got him "caught" so to speak because he didn't fall with the initial contact on his knee.  That little hesitation is why he immediately threw up his hands.  He knew he was going to get a tech.

[AHF]

In Delly's case though...he's not just taking a shot at a guy out of frustration.  He's trying to injure a player and put him out of the game.

 

He is three for three with Korver, Gibson and Horford.  I'd say he's doing a damn good job of it.  It is going to incent someone to go after Lebron's legs soon.  Then Cleveland and the NBA will rethink whether this is just good scrappy play.  It is an "irritant" until someone important to the league gets hurt.

[nsacmercury]

Thanks everyone for your responses.

 

If he were a Hawk I'd want him gone.  Dirty is dirty.

 

Teague's play was incidental contact.  Every guard pushes off in that scenario.  The elbow usually catches the opponent's chest.  That time it didn't.

 

If Teague had the history of happening to end up with his elbow to someone's face, like a certain guy always happens to end up at someone's knees, I'd have a different assessment.

 

Teague is a superior athlete to Delly in every way. He was among the leaders in assists during the regular season and postseason. So I am assuming the man has rather good vision and ability to process what he is seeing. But you believe Teague was unaware of where Delly's head was on an inbound, yet Delly has the vision and body control to how to maximize the injurious intent of his falls in the middle of active plays? Would you feel the same way if it was Teague

 

As for history correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Teague get a Flagrant 1 against the WIzards for striking the head of Bradley Beal last series? So if Teague hits a player in the head tonight, will you want him off the Hawks? That establishes as much of a pattern as Delly (3 plays) if you take the harshest views of the Gibson, Korver, and Horford plays.

 

And for some perspective review the entire Gibson play (including the screen GIbson set) and let me know how you would feel about the play if it had happened to Teague. Can you honestly say you would have no complaints if the Cavs did that to Teague tonight?

 

 

Also...that's a shot from Teague and a tech if it's caught.  Which is a point I raised earlier.  It's hard to call these in the heat of the moment and it's not possible to slow the game down to review all the contact that goes on.  Unless it's obvious, then it's something that has to be reviewed later.

 

In Delly's case though...he's not just taking a shot at a guy out of frustration.  He's trying to injure a player and put him out of the game.

 

I agree with you that Horford is a high character player and absolutely thought Delly was doing it intentionally to illicit the reaction from him it did. That said though, he has no more insight into Delly's intentions than anyone else. Even with the benefit of multiple camera angles and slow motion analysis, there is far from consensus even among former players as to whether Delly was intentionally attempting to launch into Horford to cause injury. Horford had no access to any of that of course.

 

I cannot tell you whether it was intent by Delly to injure or not. I can see why some would view Delly as launching with the intention to injure. I can understand those that believe that effort was an attempt to avoid Carroll who it looked like Delly was going to land on. I can understand those who think Delly was just trying to regain his balance or keep bodying Horford out to ensure Jones secured the rebound. I don't know who is right. The only person who does is Delly. Strange how that seems to get lost by many in this matter.

And unless there is some event earlier in game 1 I am unaware of, the shot Teague gave Delly was undeserved. This sort of thing happens to him regularly and goes completely uncalled. The shot Delly took wasn't even some difficult to see off-the-ball action. For another example of the abuse Delly takes, look at the Gibson play and tell me how you would feel if it was Teague on the receiving end of what Gibson did to Delly. The leg lock was absolutely bush league, but it came after taking a tremendous amount of uncalled abuse and had virtually no chance of causing injury. Would you rather take an elbow the face like Teague gave or get your leg locked in the manner Gibson did?

 

Unless there is some incident I am unaware of, Teague delievered a more painful and dangerous shot to Delly than Delly did to Gibson with far less provocation. And yet no one is calling Teague dirty. But somehow, the Gibson leg lock is being used as proof Delly was dirty. Somehow I don't think Hawks fans would feel the same if Teague was on the other side of the elbow he threw or the uncalled fouls of Gibson.

 

I hope for a good clean game on both sides. Basketball is a physical game, and I hate to see injuries. My immediate thought on the Carroll, Korver, and Curry plays was that I hope they do not result in injury.

 

 

 

[macdaddy]

Great article from Steve Hummer

 

http://furtherreview.blog.ajc.com/2015/05/26/a-hawks-nemesis-emerges-dellavedova/

 

 

Of all the stick-in-the-eye antagonists that could have emerged from this Hawks playoff run, who would have ever guessed the list would be led by an undrafted guard listed at 6-4, but plays much smaller.

Not the yapping Paul Pierce.

Not LeBron James, even as he begins pleading for the foul as soon as he steps off the team bus.

No, it’s Matthew Dellavedova acting as the guy you’d most like to see on the receiving end of a real, honest-to-goodness Flagrant Two elbow.

Before these playoffs, Dellavedova was the fairly harmless second-year player out of St. Mary’s, by way of Australia, who often left Cavs fans wondering how he sneaked onto the team bench.

He was known as “a pest,” in the words of Washington’s Bradley Beal.

His first NBA coach referred to him as a “non-athlete.”

“I’d bet half my salary I get a dunk before he does,” former Cavs coach Mike Brown said of Dellavedova.

Now here he is in the eye of a debate between what is just good, hard play and what is dirty.

Well, here are a few clues.

If you do your most effective work while rolling around on the floor like a Roomba with an attitude, you’re probably dirty. (Let’s count Dellavedova’s big moments in this postseason: Scissoring Taj Gibson’s legs in the Chicago series; taking out Kyle Korver with a chop block; inciting Al Horford by tumbling into his knee).

If what you do on a basketball court would be considered career-threatening in the NFL, you’re probably dirty.

If you’re a carrier for potential torn ligaments, as a mosquito is for heart worm, you’re probably dirty.

If every pick-up player in America watches you and decides, “Oh, I’d end up punching that dude in the first 10 minutes,” you’re probably dirty.

If the most responsible player on the Hawks attempts to drop the atomic elbow on you, you’re probably dirty.

There, I think we’ve fairly well established Dellavedova’s credentials. He has managed to disprove something I held true for a very long time: That there are no unlikeable Aussies.

Forward all warnings, concerns and best wishes to Steph Curry.

[Guest]

For all the talk of Delly being a dirty player though, I haven't seen anyone draw attention to this:

 

https://vine.co/v/eA9LhvIiWqj

 

That incident happened in Game 1, obviously before either of the incidents with Korver or Horford. From a Hawks perspective, how would you classify that play by Teague?

This appears to be the default move by Calfs fans right now as it has actually been brought up multiple times. Yawn. Has the lightbulb for Calfs fans clicked yet? You realize that there is probably a reason why Dellavedova is involved in all these things?

Calfs fans and Dellavedova sound like a parent slowly realizing their child is a shithead who disrupts class. It takes some time for the parent to realize it, and even if they do they'll never come out and say it. It's always someone else's fault. The kid was provoked, the teacher is out to get him, that was only a mild wedgie not like a super-atomic one, etc.

To give the response of "well you'd like him if he was on your team" is just wrong. Flat out wrong. We've got one player who is dirty every now and then in Dennis Schröder. When he was suspended for punching DeMarcus Cousins in the man region, we didn't have people on the board excited for that. Posters were generally upset for the dirtyness and lack of professionalism: http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/386395-shredder-suspended-for-1-game/

Oh but sure, we'd love to have a dirty scumbag like Dellavedova on our team. {/sarcasm}

[ClevelandRocks]

Delly fell, likely due to Horford's actions, but he used his momentum AND added to it by pushing with is right leg...and he aimed for Horf's knee.

 

Dellavedova was moving backwards because Horford was pulling him in that direction. That's the smoking gun. As seen in the still shot I uploaded, Horford held him hip to hip, which is why they bumped when he landed -- he had nowhere to go but into Horford. The only reason he lost his balance is because Horford pulled him over Carroll, which is why he's not at fault here and also why he wasn't suspended by the NBA.

To suggest that a person tried taking out another person's legs by being pulled backwards, tripped, and then unleashing the back of his armpit on a target he can't even see would be the first time in human history where that had happened. After rewatching the replay from multiple angles many times, this argument makes no sense at all, but I understand the embellishment. Hawks fans are going to blame Dellavedova no matter what because they already lost Korver due to a previous collision. This ECF has been anything but what Hawks fans had hoped for, so I get it.

[macdaddy]

Yeah at least own it.   This, oh he's just a hustle player, no one is buying.    He's taken it upon himself to be the irritant, to get under people's skin.  The nba has a history of it but at least be honest about it.   Whether it's called dirty, reckless, hustle, effort whatever doesn't really matter.  We can all see that he's throwing his body at people.  If you don't think that's dirty then fine.  

 

It defies to logic to say that he repeatedly gets into these scrapes because he's just an innocent hustler who plays the game the right way.   

[Guest]

Thanks everyone for your responses.

 

 

Teague is a superior athlete to Delly in every way. He was among the leaders in assists during the regular season and postseason. So I am assuming the man has rather good vision and ability to process what he is seeing. But you believe Teague was unaware of where Delly's head was on an inbound, yet Delly has the vision and body control to how to maximize the injurious intent of his falls in the middle of active plays? Would you feel the same way if it was Teague

 

As for history correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Teague get a Flagrant 1 against the WIzards for striking the head of Bradley Beal last series? So if Teague hits a player in the head tonight, will you want him off the Hawks? That establishes as much of a pattern as Delly (3 plays) if you take the harshest views of the Gibson, Korver, and Horford plays.

 

And for some perspective review the entire Gibson play (including the screen GIbson set) and let me know how you would feel about the play if it had happened to Teague. Can you honestly say you would have no complaints if the Cavs did that to Teague tonight?

 

@macdaddy and @hawksfanatic pretty much sum up how I feel about the subject.

 

Regarding the plays you mentioned, it's fine to cherrypick a play here or there to make a point.  That's your right, I guess.  Like I said before, that play by Teague is not unlike any guard trying to get space when a defender's pressing at the inbounds.  To suggest he aimed for the other guy's head and connected with a shot is just inflammatory conjecture to, as I mention before, make a point.

 

As others have said, to consistently end up rolling up on guys' legs simply isn't coincidence.

 

If Teague continues to get assessed with flagrant fouls and becomes the player that your guy is, yeah I'd want him gone.  At that point he's more trouble than he's worth.

 

If Gibson sets that hard screen on Teague I'd want a foul assessed.  I wouldn't want Teague to try to injure Gibson.

[macdaddy]

Dellavedova was moving backwards because Horford was pulling him in that direction. That's the smoking gun. As seen in the still shot I uploaded, Horford held him hip to hip, which is why they bumped when he landed -- he had nowhere to go but into Horford. The only reason he lost his balance is because Horford pulled him over Carroll, which is why he's not at fault here and also why he wasn't suspended by the NBA.

To suggest that a person tried taking out another person's legs by being pulled backwards, tripped, and then unleashing the back of his armpit on a target he can't even see would be the first time in human history where that had happened. After rewatching the replay from multiple angles many times, this argument makes no sense at all, but I understand the embellishment. Hawks fans are going to blame Dellavedova no matter what because they already lost Korver due to a previous collision. This ECF has been anything but what Hawks fans had hoped for, so I get it.

 

So why did the 'victim' here get a tech?   Apparently the refs saw a little more than the innocent take down you allege.

[Wretch]

Dellavedova was moving backwards because Horford was pulling him in that direction. That's the smoking gun. As seen in the still shot I uploaded, Horford held him hip to hip, which is why they bumped when he landed -- he had nowhere to go but into Horford. The only reason he lost his balance is because Horford pulled him over Carroll, which is why he's not at fault here and also why he wasn't suspended by the NBA.

To suggest that a person tried taking out another person's legs by being pulled backwards, tripped, and then unleashing the back of his armpit on a target he can't even see would be the first time in human history where that had happened. After rewatching the replay from multiple angles many times, this argument makes no sense at all, but I understand the embellishment. Hawks fans are going to blame Dellavedova no matter what because they already lost Korver due to a previous collision. This ECF has been anything but what Hawks fans had hoped for, so I get it.

 

If you don't know Horford as a player, then I would not expect you to understand - especially not coming from a Cavs fan perspective.  You really have no idea just how out of character this is for him.  Not in a million years could you convince me that Horford went after a guy, that he pulled down, and was incidentally falling into him.  It's just not logical.

 

Horford doesn't back down and he'll run his mouth and maybe shove a guy IF he is provoked the same way, but cheap shots are as foreign to him as humility is to Kobe Bryant.  He is one of the most professional and composed Hawks players (if not THE most) that I've ever watched - and I've been watching the game for 30 years.  By virtue of who Horford is, there simply has to be more to it...and there is.  If you weren't a Cavs fan you could see what happened just before the end of the scuffle.  As it were, there's really no point to this conversation.

 

What Horford did was clear and was tech-worthy.  What Dellavadova did was not as clear, but it is something that the NBA will have to look at going forward.

[Wretch]

...and now that I'm thinking about it, has Horford EVER been ejected or thrown a punch/elbow at anybody?

[nsacmercury]

@macdaddy and @hawksfanatic pretty much sum up how I feel about the subject.

 

Regarding the plays you mentioned, it's fine to cherrypick a play here or there to make a point.  That's your right, I guess.  Like I said before, that play by Teague is not unlike any guard trying to get space when a defender's pressing at the inbounds.  To suggest he aimed for the other guy's head and connected with a shot is just inflammatory conjecture to, as I mention before, make a point.

 

As others have said, to consistently end up rolling up on guys' legs simply isn't coincidence.

 

If Teague continues to get assessed with flagrant fouls and becomes the player that your guy is, yeah I'd want him gone.  At that point he's more trouble than he's worth.

 

If Gibson sets that hard screen on Teague I'd want a foul assessed.  I wouldn't want Teague to try to injure Gibson.

 

So suggesting Teague took a shot at Delly out of frustration is inflammatory conjecture (conjecture that is supported by at least one Hawks fan), but to suggest Delly was diving to take out Korver's ankle not secure a ball he had lost control of is irrefutable fact? I understand supporting your team, but I sincerely doubt you would feel the same way if Teague was the one taking an elbow to the face when Delly was inbounding. I might feel differently in your position about Korver

 

You say I cherry pick a play here or there to make a point. Then what are you doing? You have pointed to exactly 3 plays (I pointed to 2). In 2 of the plays you pointed out, an opposing player fouled Delly into the ground with no call. That does not excuse him if he acted with intent to injure. But Horford's elbow is a perfect demonstration of how being provoked can lead anyone, even a high character player, to lash out. And I don't about you, but I'd much prefer to have my leg locked the way Gibson's was than have Horford drop an elbow on me. In both of the instances I pointed out, Teague was unprovoked and struck an opponent's head.

 

I am not calling Teague a dirty player. But I do believe you are arriving at a conclusion (Teague is clean, Delly is dirty) and then looking at the incidents with the intent to support your viewpoint. I can look at each of those 5 plays and see arguments for intent to cause harm or lack thereof. I can't tell you definitively whether the players are dirty because I cannot read their minds and the sample size is rather low as you noted. You seem to be rather certain you can intuit intent however. Is there a reason you feel you are more qualified than I am in that regard?

 

I feel bad that Korver's ankle was sprained on what I view as an unfortunate accident on a loose ball. I feel bad that Carrol tweaked his knee on what was certainly an unfortunate accident. I would have much preferred these two teams met at full strength. Either way, good luck tonight. I hope for a clean game on both sides.

[AHF]

Good luck tonight and I just want to thank the mods for letting this Cavs fan post his take on here.  Peace.

 

We won't always see things from the same perspective, but respectful discussion is always welcome here.

 

I suspect if Lebron was out for the rest of the year like Korver due to Thabo getting his ankle and Thabo went into Kyrie's knees on a play like that with Horford that Cleveland fans would go bonkers about Thabo and Hawks fans would be more protective about their guy who just competes hard.

[Watchman]

What I see here is two guys tangled up.  That's playoff basketball and likely to be similar on almost every loose ball.  Nothing dirty going on by either guy there - and as I said earlier, it looks like Horford is pulling Delly.  What you need to do is review the contact that immediately followed this.  Delly fell, likely due to Horford's actions, but he used his momentum AND added to it by pushing with is right leg...and he aimed for Horf's knee.

 

There's a pause right after the contact...and right there you can see Horford deciding to retaliate.  That pause is what got him "caught" so to speak because he didn't fall with the initial contact on his knee.  That little hesitation is why he immediately threw up his hands.  He knew he was going to get a tech.

Sorry I wasn't replying to Wretch, but rather the Cleveland troll.  I'm too lazy to re-post.

 

So why don't you watch the whole incident.  It is OBVIOUS that Dirty Dova pushes off with his legs and begins his typical roll over on the legs maneuver.  You are being dishonest if you don't acknowledge that. 

Edited May 26, 2015 by Watchman