Strange context of Delly and Korver incident

[MaceCase]

I don't know if Dellevedova is dirty or if he's one of those guys we've all seen playing ball who's really not that talented so he goes too far on hustle plays to compensate. Bad part is that as he gets cheered on by the fans at home, his teammates, and the media for his "tough" play it's only going to encourage him to do even more. If it weren't for Lebron nobody would even know who this guy is either.

It's kind of like Patrick Beverly.  He was praised for his tough gritty style when he was embarrassing guys like Jrue Holiday with his fullcourt presses but then he injures Westbrook and everyone recognizes him as a POS no talent having hack.  You're right, this is a guy that's going to get encouraged and praised up until the point Steph Curry is grabbing his knee or ankle after a "hustle" play.  Even if it was a god honest clean play at that point the narrative will fully change with this guy and the media will go 180 just because a star went down.

[nsacmercury]

At best he is one of the most reckless players in NBA history. At worst he is dirty. I've watched the NBA for 40 + yrs. and seen a lot of "hustle" players...guys that dive for balls and are always going 100mph. Interestingly, I don't recall Rodman, Mason, Shaq, or any other players blowing out ankles and knees like Della. Simply put, there are right ways and dangerous ways to dive for a ball. To whip your body around onto someone's ankle is dangerous and reckless at best...with his activity in the playoffs he done more damage that can end a career than the men I listed combined.

I don't buy the "hustle" excuse.

 

You don't have to personally believe Delly is a clean player. But as an Atlanta fan, certainly you can understand how fans usually give their players the benefit of the doubt right? No one seems to accuse Horford of being a dirty or reckless player. But the hit he delivered to Ford knocked him out for two months and appeared to affect Ford's career (and had the potential to cause long-term damage beyond the basketball court given his condition). Unless there are unexpected complications, I don't see how Korver's high ankle sprain in any way affects his career or life.

 

So if I am not mistaken, Delly has caused as many injuries to other players in his two years in the league as Horford did in his first two years in the league. I do not think Horford is a dirty player (even after acknowledging he intentionally dropped an elbow on Delly). Delly I cannot be certain of one way or another because the sample size is so small. But I find it strange that so many Hawks fans take no issue with Horford dropping an elbow on Delly, yet take serious issue with Delly performing a mid-calf leg lock on Gibson after Gibson hit him in the head on a screen, bull-rushed him into the ground, and pressed his weight on him while getting up.

 

My main point was it seems rather unfair to call a fanbase classless for supporting a player that no one genuinely knows the intentions of (outside of the player himself). Cavs and Hawks fans are biased by their support for their team. What makes any Atlanta fan here any more qualified to intuit the intent of Delly than a Cavs fan?

[TheFuzz]

So is ot classy to call a fanbase classless for supporting a player they believe is being slandered? I do not know if Delly is dirty. Besides the man himself, no one can say with any certainty what the intent was on the 3 plays people discuss. So it is only natural that Cavs fans will give him the benefit of the doubt and Hawks fans will not.

 

I will say this. Dirty or not, Delly takes a ridiculous amount of abuse on the court (see the lead up to the Gibson leg lock, the Teague elbows to the face, etc). I have never heard him complain about it to the media, and I have never seen him slow down because of it. If you were to feel there was no ill intent in his style of play (and fandom usually means giving your team's players the benefit of the doubt until proven wrong), can you understand why the Cleveland fanbase would get behind him?

 

I am hoping for a good matchup next year. It would be great to start working at chipping away at the perceived disparity between the East and West (particularly at the top of the conference).

 

As a Hawks fan, I look forward to a good series next year as well. I also don't think "Delly" is a completely classless player like Dwayne Wade who purposefully injures players out of spite or whatever. He seems more like a Joakim Noah type than a Wade type.

 

But let's be real, this is a Hawks forum and the dude just took out one of our players and then made our best player sit for a game after he was on fire (Horford retaliated inappropriately IMO, but it was instigated). I get where you're coming from but let a fanbase vent, you know?

 

P.S. Delly can burn in hell, lol.

 

Edit: To the above post, I think we're just venting. However, I do think it's pretty weird to give a player that has caused an injury and multiple ejections a standing ovation. That's excessive IMo, and I don't hate the dude. I can see rallying behind him for his hustle and what not, but he has caused injuries and ejections, always to the best players on the other teams (coincidentally or not).

Edited May 28, 2015 by TheFuzz

[nsacmercury]

It's kind of like Patrick Beverly.  He was praised for his tough gritty style when he was embarrassing guys like Jrue Holiday with his fullcourt presses but then he injures Westbrook and everyone recognizes him as a POS no talent having hack.  You're right, this is a guy that's going to get encouraged and praised up until the point Steph Curry is grabbing his knee or ankle after a "hustle" play.  Even if it was a god honest clean play at that point the narrative will fully change with this guy and the media will go 180 just because a star went down.

 

I think that is an interesting point. If Delly is a dirty player, he is getting more of a pass than he deserves. If Delly is going out with no intention to harm anyone, then the media narrative has a very real chance of impacting his career. He certainly does not have the talent to overcome a media-generated reputation that makes him undesirable.

 

 

As a Hawks fan, I look forward to a good series next year as well. I also don't think "Delly" is a completely classless player like Dwayne Wade who purposefully injures players out of spite or whatever. He seems more like a Joakim Noah type than a Wade type.

 

But let's be real, this is a Hawks forum and the dude just took out one of our players and then made our best player sit for a game after he was on fire (Horford retaliated inappropriately IMO, but it was instigated). I get where you're coming from but let a fanbase vent, you know?

 

P.S. Delly can burn in hell, lol.

 

Edit: To the above post, I think we're just venting. However, I do think it's pretty weird to give a player that has caused an injury and multiple ejections a standing ovation. That's excessive IMo, and I don't hate the dude. I can see rallying behind him for his hustle and what not, but he has caused injuries and ejections, always to the best players on the other teams (coincidentally or not).

 

Haha, I get the frustration. Cleveland fans understand it better than most. But do remember you guys crushed the Indians dreams :-p. I don't mean to stop the venting, but rather to question the reason for taking a potshot at the Cleveland fanbase for supporting a player they thought was being slandered. It's not like the Cavs fans cheered either Carroll's or Korver's injury.

 

As for why Delly got a standing ovation, it's likely because he has taken a considerable amount of abuse on the court and off the court. If you believe he is completely clean and just out there giving his all (which Cavs fans by and large do), working with limited talent, then you want to support your player. Just imagine if Game 4 was in Atlanta and the run-up to the game was a bunch of media talk about Horford being a dirty player - don't you think the Atlanta fanbase would show support?

 

But even beyond that, Cleveland fans wanted nothing more than to see a Cavs win to secure our spot in The Finals, giving us the best chance to end a 50 year championship drought we have had since the the late 90s. Fans have very little way to affect the outcome of a game beyond the energy they provide. If nothing else, the Delly dialogue was an excuse to get riled up as a fanbase and rally behind a player who normally wouldn't warrant that attention. I'd say the players fed off the energy, Delly included, and isn't making that sort of impact part of the satisfaction of being a fan?

 

I do hope we meet next year with both squads at full strength. It sucked that both teams were so dinged up.

[Guest]

I don't care to follow the Cavs at all, but wasn't the majority of that fanbase throwing hate at Kelly Olynyk?

https://www.reddit.com/r/clevelandcavs/comments/33xqgp/fuck_kelly_olynyk/

http://www.complex.com/sports/2015/04/cavaliers-fans-kevin-love-injury-kelly-olynyk-twitter-reactions/

http://cleveland.suntimes.com/cle-sports/cleveland-cavaliers/7/91/182299/kelly-olynyk-hated-cleveland/

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2015/04/the_most_creatively_hateful_tw.html

Ah, OK.

So what is the difference between Olynyk and Dellavedova here?

It's funny here. Because if you're a Cavs fan and are trying to defend Dellavedova for his reckless play ... don't your arguments also apply to Olynyk? Both are reckless players that their fans love. They both play like dirtballs with arm-bars and getting in cheap shots throughout the game. They are irritants. They encapsulate the "grittiness" that Rust Belt cities adore.

Oh how funny it is to hear of the "bush-league play" when it happens to you, then amnesia kicks in a month later and it's all "HEY HE HAS GRIT"

 

No one seems to accuse Horford of being a dirty or reckless player. But the hit he delivered to Ford knocked him out for two months and appeared to affect Ford's career (and had the potential to cause long-term damage beyond the basketball court given his condition). Unless there are unexpected complications, I don't see how Korver's high ankle sprain in any way affects his career or life.

Oh my, you're going to come on this board and talk about an incident that happened back in 2007 that you have limited recollection of? Let me remind you, Al Horford went directly to the hospital after the game to wait for over 2 hours to make sure that TJ Ford was OK.

 

If I've learned nothing else about Al Horford the past six months, it's that he's a class act. That was clear the first day I met him and it was never more clear than last night, after his hard fouls sent Toronto point guard T.J. Ford crashing to the floor late in the Hawks' loss to the Raptors at Philips Arena.

I'll be the first person to sound off in defense of this guy, because long before everyone else had vacated the premises Tuesday night, Horford made his way to Piedmont Hospital to check on Ford, who remained under observation overnight but reportedly had movement in all of his extremities.

Horford was one of several people affiliated with the Hawks to go directly to the hospital to check on Ford - Dominique Wilkins and Josh Smith's father Pete Smith were there, too - and make sure he knew that what happened was purely accidental.

Horford, I'm told, waited quite a while for Ford to get done with tests just to make sure he got the chance to speak with him personally. And when told that Horford came to check on him and wanted to speak with him, Ford let it be known that he knew Horford's lick wasn't intentional and that he welcomed Horford to stop by and visit.

None of that will make it on the highlight shows. But it's just an example of the class shown by all involved.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/4222/t-j-ford-on-a-stretcher-again

This happened in 2007 and was only an issue because Mark Madsen initially gave TJ spine injuries in 2004. TJ Ford continued to play in the NBA until 2012. Hell, his BEST season was in 2008: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/fordtj01.html

As for ending TJ Ford's career? That might have more to do with Baron Davis hitting TJ Ford which prompted his retirement: http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7676569/san-antonio-spurs-tj-ford-retiring-latest-injury-neck

[MaceCase]

I'm honestly sick and tired of the TJ Ford mention.  Oh yea, let's just try and forget that TJ had a preexisting spinal condition that prevents him from even enjoying a round of bumper cars on Memorial Day lest he be paralyzed for life.  In the moment that Al went up for a block he somehow managed to travel back in time, learned embryonics and proceeded to fiddle with little TJ while he was still in his momma's stomach.  Voila, a routine play now becomes dirty. 

[nsacmercury]

I don't care to follow the Cavs at all, but wasn't the majority of that fanbase throwing hate at Kelly Olynyk?

https://www.reddit.com/r/clevelandcavs/comments/33xqgp/fuck_kelly_olynyk/

http://www.complex.com/sports/2015/04/cavaliers-fans-kevin-love-injury-kelly-olynyk-twitter-reactions/

http://cleveland.suntimes.com/cle-sports/cleveland-cavaliers/7/91/182299/kelly-olynyk-hated-cleveland/

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2015/04/the_most_creatively_hateful_tw.html

Ah, OK.

So what is the difference between Olynyk and Dellavedova here?

It's funny here. Because if you're a Cavs fan and are trying to defend Dellavedova for his reckless play ... don't your arguments also apply to Olynyk? Both are reckless players that their fans love. They both play like dirtballs with arm-bars and getting in cheap shots throughout the game. They are irritants. They encapsulate the "grittiness" that Rust Belt cities adore.

Oh how funny it is to hear of the "bush-league play" when it happens to you, then amnesia kicks in a month later and it's all "HEY HE HAS GRIT"

 

Oh my, you're going to come on this board and talk about an incident that happened back in 2007 that you have limited recollection of? Let me remind you, Al Horford went directly to the hospital after the game to wait for over 2 hours to make sure that TJ Ford was OK.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/4222/t-j-ford-on-a-stretcher-again

This happened in 2007 and was only an issue because Mark Madsen initially gave TJ spine injuries in 2004. TJ Ford continued to play in the NBA until 2012. Hell, his BEST season was in 2008: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/fordtj01.html

As for ending TJ Ford's career? That might have more to do with Baron Davis hitting TJ Ford which prompted his retirement: http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7676569/san-antonio-spurs-tj-ford-retiring-latest-injury-neck

 

The largest difference between Delly and Olynyk? Delly's play was a legal basketball play and Olynyk's was not (as evidenced by his suspension). The sad part is Korver's injury could have been avoided (regardless of whether or not Delly is dirty) had he dove for the ball like players are coached to do. I fail to see how Kevin Love could have possibly avoided his injury once Olynyk arm-barred him.

 

As for Horford, I cited an incident in 2007 because that was early in Horford's career, and it is early in Delly's career. Delivering a flagrant foul to the head of a player with a genetic spinal condition and a previous spinal cord injury seems at the very least reckless, no? I do not believe Horford is dirty (as I said before), and I was fully aware that he was contrite following the incident. But that doesn't change the fact that his reckless move affected TJ Ford's career and could have actually impacted his life off the basketball court.

 

And at no point did I say it ended Ford's career. I said it affected Ford's career. He was out for 2 months, he lost his starting position, and he ended up traded to Indiana the following year. That started a steady decline in his starter's role and minutes per game. I don't see how Korver's career is going to be affected by the 2.5 games he missed.

 

[Guest]

As for Horford, I cited an incident in 2007 because that was early in Horford's career, and it is early in Delly's career. Delivering a flagrant foul to the head of a player with a genetic spinal condition and a previous spinal cord injury seems at the very least reckless, no? I do not believe Horford is dirty (as I said before), and I was fully aware that he was contrite following the incident. But that doesn't change the fact that his reckless move affected TJ Ford's career and could have actually impacted his life off the basketball court.

You're clearly saying, well Horf ain't dirty ... but he did stuff like Delly ... so Delly ain't dirty. That doesn't follow when the situations don't compare. Horford waited at a hospital to make sure TJ Ford was OK. Dellavedova? He sent a text message. Wow, yeah real comparable here. You're also up to 3 incidents we can point to in the last month for Dellavedova. Again, I don't follow the Cavs so there might even be more. You have 2 references for Horford's entire career. The comparison is weak.

The largest difference between Delly and Olynyk? Delly's play was a legal basketball play and Olynyk's was not (as evidenced by his suspension). The sad part is Korver's injury could have been avoided (regardless of whether or not Delly is dirty) had he dove for the ball like players are coached to do. I fail to see how Kevin Love could have possibly avoided his injury once Olynyk arm-barred him.

Well actually if Kevin Love knew Krav Maga he'd be able to disengage from the arm-bar in correct fashion and escape without injury. So it's actually more his fault for not knowing this.

"Legal basketball play" is a ridiculous statement in and of itself. Here's a fun look at other "legal basketball plays" because they weren't called:

Gee, didn't the NBA put out emphasis on rules pertaining to giving players space to land after this?

[nsacmercury]

You're clearly saying, well Horf ain't dirty ... but he did stuff like Delly ... so Delly ain't dirty. That doesn't follow when the situations don't compare. Horford waited at a hospital to make sure TJ Ford was OK. Dellavedova? He sent a text message. Wow, yeah real comparable here. You're also up to 3 incidents we can point to in the last month for Dellavedova. Again, I don't follow the Cavs so there might even be more. You have 2 references for Horford's entire career. The comparison is weak.

Well actually if Kevin Love knew Krav Maga he'd be able to disengage from the arm-bar in correct fashion and escape without injury. So it's actually more his fault for not knowing this.

"Legal basketball play" is a ridiculous statement in and of itself. Here's a fun look at other "legal basketball plays" because they weren't called:

Gee, didn't the NBA put out emphasis on rules pertaining to giving players space to land after this?

 

No. I am not saying Delly is not dirty. I am saying fans give their players the benefit of the doubt. That is a natural reaction, and it would be rather ridiculous to expect otherwise. As for a text message versus a hospital visit, the stakes seems a little higher with a spinal injury (particularly given a condition that could make a play like that result in paralysis) versus a high ankle sprain, don't you think?

 

And the 3 "incidents" have resulted in exactly one injury. Yet so many people are acting as though Delly has ended dozens of careers. One guy had his leg locked (which certainly hurt a lot less than the illegal plays that preceded it). One guy had his ankle rolled after a loose ball diving play (a play that could have been dirty or could have had zero intent of causing harm). And one guy tweaked an already injured knee to no lasting detrimental effect (again a play that could have been dirty or could have had zero intent of causing harm). That is not exactly an impressive dosier for a hitman. In that same time period Delly was hit in the face by Gibson, Teague, and Horford, none of which had possession of a basketball, without a single whistle blown. But I guess that is completely acceptable. Please do let me know when the NBA outlaws diving for a loose ball though. I imagine I will be waiting a while.

 

But I am not trying to convince you that Delly isn't dirty. I am merely saying neither of us know, so bias would lead me to think he isn't and you to think he is. Do you have some reason to think you are better capable of intuiting his intent than I am?

[Guest]

But I am not trying to convince you that Delly isn't dirty. I am merely saying neither of us know, so bias would lead me to think he isn't and you to think he is. Do you have some reason to think you are better capable of intuiting his intent than I am?

Well you'll look like a fool for assuming that because:

Huh?

http://on.nba.com/1Fv0KBz

That's the play. There's no rebound. It was a loose ball because Dennis poked the ball away from Dellavedova as Dellavedova crossed halfcourt and Kyle also dove for it.

It's a random and unlucky play, but it's not dirty.

http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/408112-kyle-korver-out-for-the-playoffs/page-2#entry771933

I am arguing against the Calfs and their hypocrisy here. For one, the Horford to Dellavedova comparison is weak and not actually comparable when you get the facts from 2007 right. For two, if a Calf is going to be defending Dellavedova then their logic dictates they'd be defending Olynyk. Oh but they don't (in general, I probably shouldn't over-generalize their fans though). Hell, look at the f***ing Leebraaan interviews with respect to Love-Olynyk. It's all "dude, you can't be doing this that's a dangerous play it shouldn't happen we need to get the justice to come down and get this guy out of here." (obvious paraphrase here) But when Horford, a highly respected player in the NBA, goes through and explains his actions you get uber-defensive Laughbruh who makes a 180 flip on the issue. I guess a photographic memory can't buy you brains, huh? (no one believes the photographic memory stuff either)

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Defend Dellavedova? Then you prolly should be receptive to Olynyk in the same light. But if you're holding grudges on Olynyk and constructing your argument upon ... well basically reckless play ... then you miiiiight want to lay off defending Dellavedova for the 3 incidents he's been a part of. Defending Dellavedova and calling Olynyk dirty is illogical, which has been my whole rant.

[AHF]

Well you'll look like a fool for assuming that because:http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/408112-kyle-korver-out-for-the-playoffs/page-2#entry771933I am arguing against the Calfs and their hypocrisy here. For one, the Horford to Dellavedova comparison is weak and not actually comparable when you get the facts from 2007 right. For two, if a Calf is going to be defending Dellavedova then their logic dictates they'd be defending Olynyk. Oh but they don't (in general, I probably shouldn't over-generalize their fans though). Hell, look at the f***ing Leebraaan interviews with respect to Love-Olynyk. It's all "dude, you can't be doing this that's a dangerous play it shouldn't happen we need to get the justice to come down and get this guy out of here." (obvious paraphrase here) But when Horford, a highly respected player in the NBA, goes through and explains his actions you get uber-defensive Laughbruh who makes a 180 flip on the issue. I guess a photographic memory can't buy you brains, huh? (no one believes the photographic memory stuff either)You can't have your cake and eat it too. Defend Dellavedova? Then you prolly should be receptive to Olynyk in the same light. But if you're holding grudges on Olynyk and constructing your argument upon ... well basically reckless play ... then you miiiiight want to lay off defending Dellavedova for the 3 incidents he's been a part of. Defending Dellavedova and calling Olynyk dirty is illogical, which has been my whole rant.

I think his point is that fans are inherently biased so it doesn't reflect a particular classlessness for Boston fans to defend Olynyk or Cleveland fans to defend Delly because they will inherently look at things in the best light for their player. Likewise, simultaneous criticism of opponents is to be expected since the fan base will inherently look at things in a less favorable light for an opposing player who hurts one of their guys.

My biggest problem is Delly going unpunished in any meaningful way. The lesson here is it is better to dive at Lebron's knees than to retaliate against Delly. (Of course that assumes refs don't treat superstars differently which is a whole other topic.)

[Guest]

Gangsta Kyle

Rich Homie Kyle even

 

And a new nickname is born.

[macdaddy]

Here's the thing about the Korver incident.  If that had been Lebron instead of Korver that got rolled up and knocked out of the playoffs, the player that rolled him up would have gotten suspended for the entire playoffs and constantly vilified around the league.   

 

I don't see how anyone, Cavs fan or not, can deny that is the reality.  

[Guest]

Here's the thing about the Korver incident.  If that had been Lebron instead of Korver that got rolled up and knocked out of the playoffs, the player that rolled him up would have gotten suspended for the entire playoffs and constantly vilified around the league.   

 

I don't see how anyone, Cavs fan or not, can deny that is the reality.  

 

Yeah I'm sure if it had been Baze-on-Brunn crime and LeeBrunn had been put out, all the Calfs fans would be all, "Gee, nice hustle there Bazemore."

[MaceCase]

I mean shit, Pero's typical playoff foul to the upper body of Bron while in the air was received by fans and Bron alike as if Pero performed a RKO off the top rope onto a flaming table filled with thumbtacks. Can't imagine if Baze attempted a "dive" for a loose ball within a restricted area sized radius around Bron's lower extremities.

[macdaddy]

Anyone hear Steve Holman say that Tanya Harding is checking into the game when Dellavedova entered game 4?   Hilarious.

[nsacmercury]

Well you'll look like a fool for assuming that because:

http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/408112-kyle-korver-out-for-the-playoffs/page-2#entry771933

I am arguing against the Calfs and their hypocrisy here. For one, the Horford to Dellavedova comparison is weak and not actually comparable when you get the facts from 2007 right. For two, if a Calf is going to be defending Dellavedova then their logic dictates they'd be defending Olynyk. Oh but they don't (in general, I probably shouldn't over-generalize their fans though). Hell, look at the f***ing Leebraaan interviews with respect to Love-Olynyk. It's all "dude, you can't be doing this that's a dangerous play it shouldn't happen we need to get the justice to come down and get this guy out of here." (obvious paraphrase here) But when Horford, a highly respected player in the NBA, goes through and explains his actions you get uber-defensive Laughbruh who makes a 180 flip on the issue. I guess a photographic memory can't buy you brains, huh? (no one believes the photographic memory stuff either)

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Defend Dellavedova? Then you prolly should be receptive to Olynyk in the same light. But if you're holding grudges on Olynyk and constructing your argument upon ... well basically reckless play ... then you miiiiight want to lay off defending Dellavedova for the 3 incidents he's been a part of. Defending Dellavedova and calling Olynyk dirty is illogical, which has been my whole rant.

 

 

Again, unless you have legitimate insight into the intent of Delly, how can you say with certainty that his dive was anything other than "reckless" (a term that should be fair to describe a play where a player unnecessarily strikes the head of an individual with a serious pre-existing spinal condition)? For that matter, who dives for a basketball when no one is anywhere near the ball? There is always inherent risk when there is a loose ball, and players are typically going to dive for it when there are players nearby. Unless the NBA plans to ban diving, diving will almost always take place when a player is nearby. Are you arguing that players aren't coached to get on the floor when there is a loose ball? Are you arguing that it is wise to avoid diving and instead place your foot less than 12 inches from a loose ball?

 

But we are at an impasse. You do not see any difference between arm-barring a player to the extent that his shoulder is dislocated (an illegal basketball play that was met with a suspension and could not have been avoided by the victim) and diving for a loose ball  (a legal basketball play that happens nightly in the NBA, received no punishment, and a play whose unfortunate victim could have avoided injury by doing what players are coached to do from a young age). I have no way of explaining it to you more clearly than that.

 

But you don't have to see the difference. All I was really asking for in this thread was avoiding taking potshots at a fanbase when they are giving their player the benefit of the doubt. I am not here telling anyone Delly isn't dirty. I said I don't know his intent, and he very well may be. I am not in here saying Horford is dirty despite intentionally dropping an elbow on a player for my team. All I am saying is consider it from the other viewpoint. But I guess that makes me the one blinded by bias and you the one who can say with certainty that Delly set out with the intention to injure players.

 

 

I think his point is that fans are inherently biased so it doesn't reflect a particular classlessness for Boston fans to defend Olynyk or Cleveland fans to defend Delly because they will inherently look at things in the best light for their player. Likewise, simultaneous criticism of opponents is to be expected since the fan base will inherently look at things in a less favorable light for an opposing player who hurts one of their guys.

My biggest problem is Delly going unpunished in any meaningful way. The lesson here is it is better to dive at Lebron's knees than to retaliate against Delly. (Of course that assumes refs don't treat superstars differently which is a whole other topic.)

 

That is a fair assessment of what I am saying on the classy-ness argument.

 

The only point I would make about Delly being punished is why should he be if he is legitimately not seeking to injure anyone? I am not going to pretend that NBA refs are bias-less, but they are theoretically supposed to be. And there are perfectly reasonable interpretations of all 3 events that require no intent to injure an opposing player (arguments forwarded not only by Cavs fans but also by those who are reasonably unbiased). So the hope is the refs are doing their best to judge those plays and determine whether malicious intent was present. The Delly is definitely dirty viewpoint requires both claiming knowledge of intent that no one but Delly has and saying the refs have been intentionally biased in their interpretation of the events.

 

Delly should have received a technical foul during the game against Gibson. That was definitely a missed call, but those happen all the time to both teams (a series of missed calls resulted in Delly being on the ground in the first place). If Delly dove at the ball with no intent to injure Korver, should he receive any punishment? The play is a legal basketball play. And if Delly simply was pulled off balance by Horford had his first foot collide with Horford's, and pushed off to try to regain balance/avoid DMC/soften his fall, then the tech he received seems excessive. On the flip-side, if there was intent to injure, the tech is far less than he deserves.

 

I get the outrage and frustration. My initial reaction was that the calls for Delly being dirty were completely unfounded. But I took a step back and at least tried to see how I would go about supporting a position that Delly was dirty (one that an Atlanta fan should be expected to take by default), and I can see there is room for interpretation. It doesn't seem reasonable ask others to admit as much before they take potshots at an opposing team's fanbase. It still amazes me how people think one large group of similarly-minded people is so drastically different than their large group of similarly-minded people.

[AHF]

Again, unless you have legitimate insight into the intent of Delly, how can you say with certainty that his dive was anything other than "reckless" (a term that should be fair to describe a play where a player unnecessarily strikes the head of an individual with a serious pre-existing spinal condition)? For that matter, who dives for a basketball when no one is anywhere near the ball? There is always inherent risk when there is a loose ball, and players are typically going to dive for it when there are players nearby. Unless the NBA plans to ban diving, diving will almost always take place when a player is nearby. Are you arguing that players aren't coached to get on the floor when there is a loose ball? Are you arguing that it is wise to avoid diving and instead place your foot less than 12 inches from a loose ball?

 

But we are at an impasse. You do not see any difference between arm-barring a player to the extent that his shoulder is dislocated (an illegal basketball play that was met with a suspension and could not have been avoided by the victim) and diving for a loose ball  (a legal basketball play that happens nightly in the NBA, received no punishment, and a play whose unfortunate victim could have avoided injury by doing what players are coached to do from a young age). I have no way of explaining it to you more clearly than that.

 

But you don't have to see the difference. All I was really asking for in this thread was avoiding taking potshots at a fanbase when they are giving their player the benefit of the doubt. I am not here telling anyone Delly isn't dirty. I said I don't know his intent, and he very well may be. I am not in here saying Horford is dirty despite intentionally dropping an elbow on a player for my team. All I am saying is consider it from the other viewpoint. But I guess that makes me the one blinded by bias and you the one who can say with certainty that Delly set out with the intention to injure players.

 

 

 

That is a fair assessment of what I am saying on the classy-ness argument.

 

The only point I would make about Delly being punished is why should he be if he is legitimately not seeking to injure anyone? I am not going to pretend that NBA refs are bias-less, but they are theoretically supposed to be. And there are perfectly reasonable interpretations of all 3 events that require no intent to injure an opposing player (arguments forwarded not only by Cavs fans but also by those who are reasonably unbiased). So the hope is the refs are doing their best to judge those plays and determine whether malicious intent was present. The Delly is definitely dirty viewpoint requires both claiming knowledge of intent that no one but Delly has and saying the refs have been intentionally biased in their interpretation of the events.

 

Delly should have received a technical foul during the game against Gibson. That was definitely a missed call, but those happen all the time to both teams (a series of missed calls resulted in Delly being on the ground in the first place). If Delly dove at the ball with no intent to injure Korver, should he receive any punishment? The play is a legal basketball play. And if Delly simply was pulled off balance by Horford had his first foot collide with Horford's, and pushed off to try to regain balance/avoid DMC/soften his fall, then the tech he received seems excessive. On the flip-side, if there was intent to injure, the tech is far less than he deserves.

 

I get the outrage and frustration. My initial reaction was that the calls for Delly being dirty were completely unfounded. But I took a step back and at least tried to see how I would go about supporting a position that Delly was dirty (one that an Atlanta fan should be expected to take by default), and I can see there is room for interpretation. It doesn't seem reasonable ask others to admit as much before they take potshots at an opposing team's fanbase. It still amazes me how people think one large group of similarly-minded people is so drastically different than their large group of similarly-minded people.

 

Like I said, expect people to dive at Lebron's legs and then say it was an accident if this is the way the game is going to be played.  Guys get ejected for trying to shake Delly off their leg when he is clamped on it and he escapes with nothing.  He gets nothing when he dives into guys legs and then gets a tech that is completely meaningless when issues in the context of ejecting the other team's best player.

 

If I were GS and Delly started doing this in that series (and frankly we should expect to see it at this point), I would send some scrub in and tell them to be balls-to-the-wall aggressive diving in at Lebron trying to poke the ball away, etc. and if that scrub happened to hit his leg I would expect nothing more than Delly has gotten -- except that we all know the league would protect Lebron in a way that it won't protect Gibson, Korver and Horford.  

 

This is the whole reason that refs are supposed to check reckless play - because it can injure people regardless of intent.  Guys who consistently engage in reckless play (Delly) are dirty regardless of whether they are actually intending to hurt someone.

Edited May 28, 2015 by AHF

[Guest]

Again, unless you have legitimate insight into the intent of Delly, how can you say with certainty that his dive was anything other than "reckless" (a term that should be fair to describe a play where a player unnecessarily strikes the head of an individual with a serious pre-existing spinal condition)? For that matter, who dives for a basketball when no one is anywhere near the ball? There is always inherent risk when there is a loose ball, and players are typically going to dive for it when there are players nearby. Unless the NBA plans to ban diving, diving will almost always take place when a player is nearby. Are you arguing that players aren't coached to get on the floor when there is a loose ball? Are you arguing that it is wise to avoid diving and instead place your foot less than 12 inches from a loose ball?

Aaaand here we are. You haven't read my posts. I haven't called Dellavedova dirty. Hell, the post I dug up from last week showed I said the play where Dellavedova injured Kyle was not dirty. You're making up shit about what I have said either because you haven't read it, you can't understand the English language, or you're intentionally obtuse. I'm making the distinction that Calves fans are illogical mouth breathers when they defend Dellavedova and yet chastise Olynyk for incidents that actually are similar. You're out here defending Dellavedova as dirty against me (which I never said he was), while still chastising Olynyk (which I never said he was/wasn't dirty) with silly rhetoric of how a basketball play can be "illegal" versus "legal" even though that is well outside the realm of anything that matters as evidenced by Bruce Bowen's "legal" plays.

Irony at it's finest.

[Guest]

Why we still talking about this?  Let's resurrect the thread when Curry gets beheaded by this clown and Calfs fans chime in with, "Hmph, was goin' for the ball.  I don't see the problem."