Forget ceiling and floor... what do you consider to be a REALISTIC potential comparable SG, past or present, to Hardaway Jr?

[AHF]

You do realize THJ was almost literally the worst defensive shooting guard in the NBA the last two years? As opposed to Matthews who is one of the better?

 

It is like saying Teague reminds you of Magic Johnson because, you know, reasons.

His defense scares me. Epically bad so far. He has to start work on that this summer and turn things around immediately on D.

[Diesel]

People are shying away from it, but I will say that his game may be like Klay Thompson's (In our system) or at Worst Kerry Kittles.

 

I think this guy needs structure and a boost of Confidence and he will be MIP.

[Duff_Man]

This reminds me of all those "Korver is horrible at defense! Rabble rabble!" discussions.

As long as his work ethic and desire to improve is there, this could work out nicely.

[NBASupes]

Joe Johnson, Wesley Matthews and Danny Green might be really bad to complete bad projections for him.

 

Joe had good footwork, elite size and could defend two positions on defense even when he was 21 yo. On offense, he could spot at PG, he could create his own offense with no problem till double teams came and he could rebound for a SG/SF. Joe is really an HOF type more than anything.

 

Wes grew each year and turned himself into a solid all around player who can do everything. Out of college, he could do a bit of everything but he just got much better.

 

Danny was a borderline NBA player till he adjusted and became a reliable defender and developed his shoot to become a quality much needed 3/D guy somewhat like DMC without the junkyard dog mentality.

 

Hardaway is a scorer with excellent size and good athleticism for his position. He is great in transition and can score in numerous ways. He's very fast and he learning to become a better team defender although it's likely he will never become a plus defender.

 

Players he compares to just by skill-set traits are:

Lou Williams

J.R. Smith

Allan Houston

Michael Finley

Jamal Crawford

Jordan Crawford

Marshon Brooks

Carmelo Anthony

 

Now, he doesn't have top 5 all time offense like Melo so that comparison is bushes. He can't create his own shot at a very good to elite rate as well has he has solid BBIQ so that removes the Crawford's, Lou, J.R, Brooks and other like them. That put him in the range of players like Willie Anderson, Michael Finley and Allan Houston. Now, not of these guys were good defenders if even decent till they were later in their careers. But the difference is consistency. All of these guys showed more consistency to this point than Hardaway. Now Finley did regress from yr 1 to yr 2. Out of all the players. Houston and Hardaway yr one was extremely similar. Finley skill-set is closest to Hardaway. They both aren't good at creating off the dribble but can have moments where they can score at will, they both show solid BBIQ, athletic and are SG's who can score off of screens and movement. Both play little to no defense as rookies and Sophs as well. Hardaway regressed the most of all of the players we are comparing him based on his Soph year. His numbers are weaker and his consistency was worse than Finley or Houston. So he needs to show much improvement to progress at the rate of Finley. Houston's improvement from yr 1 to yr 2 was massive while taking two steps back in yr 3 while Finley improved a lot in Dallas in yr 3.

[thecampster]

I will highlight 2 players here.

 

Player one...born Sept 15, 1993.

 

17.07 mpg, 7.5 ppg, 41.7% FG%, 32.6 3pt%, 79.7% FT%, 1.8 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.7 t/o, .5 spg

 

Player two...born Mar 16, 1992.

 

23.3 mpg, 10.8 ppg, 40.8% FG%, 35.3 3pt%, 81.3% FT%, 1.8 rpg, 1.3 apg, .9 t/o, .4 spg

 

There are two main differences between these two players. One of these players had to fight with the constant problems in New York and fight a ball hogging sf/pf in Carmelo Anthony. He had to start occasionally and shoulder the burden of being an instant contributor. The other player was allowed to develop in a system conducive to his skill set and level of immaturity, in a city with low expectations.

 

The first set of stats belong to Dennis Schröder (first 2 years in the league), the second to Tim Hardaway Jr. for his first 2 seasons. I for one am excited to see what Bud and company do with THJ....I was pining for the Hawks drafting him on draft night and I wish he would have developed here.

[thecampster]

One more very interesting and close comparison.

 

Avery Bradley's 1st year with Boston was a train wreck. His second year was much improved.  But In Bradley's 3rd year in the league (same age as Hardaway's last season were.

 

28.4 mpg, 40.2% fg%, 31.7 fg%, 75.5% ft%, 2.2 rpg, 2.1 apg, 1.4 t/o, 1.3 spg.

 

The next two seasons he pushed his fg% over 43% and his ppg to 14.4ppg.    I think if Hardaway could put up those number people here would be very happy.

[thecampster]

Player 48-Minute Production by Position

Position FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*

PG 23.0   .485   4.9   24%  3.5   4.2   .0   .0   4.9   26.5   16.5  

SG 20.9   .509   4.6   19%  4.3   3.7   2.4   .4   3.3   25.0   14.0  

SF 18.9   .365   3.9   22%  5.0   3.2   2.4   .3   3.3   16.8   4.6                

Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production

Position FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*

PG 12.5   .417   9.1   22%  3.5   7.7   4.2   .0   2.8   16.7   9.7  

SG 18.6   .533   5.0   22%  5.0   4.8   2.4   .3   3.6   23.9   16.0  

SF 13.7   .508   3.3   28%  7.6   4.1   1.8   .6   3.0   16.6   13.7                

 

Net 48-Minute Production by Position

Position FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*

PG 10.4  .068  -4.2  2% .0  -3.5  4.2  .0  -2.1  9.8  6.8  

SG 2.2  -.024  -.4  -3% -.7  -1.1  .0  .1  .2  1.1  -1.9  

SF 5.2  -.143  .6  -6% -2.7  -.9  -.7  -.2  -.3  .2  -9.1  

 

Interesting here is a huge PER differential when Hardaway played the PG position and terrible at the SF.  I think he's going to play a combo guard for us and this was an analytics decision.

Edited June 27, 2015 by thecampster

[NBASupes]

One more very interesting and close comparison.

 

Avery Bradley's 1st year with Boston was a train wreck. His second year was much improved.  But In Bradley's 3rd year in the league (same age as Hardaway's last season were.

 

28.4 mpg, 40.2% fg%, 31.7 fg%, 75.5% ft%, 2.2 rpg, 2.1 apg, 1.4 t/o, 1.3 spg.

 

The next two seasons he pushed his fg% over 43% and his ppg to 14.4ppg.    I think if Hardaway could put up those number people here would be very happy.

Bradley was an elite defender each year. If you want Bradley out of him on offense, he might as well decide to go play in Europe or the D-League. Bradley would be a major step down in terms of production on offense.

 

Not only that but their skill-set is completely different.

[thecampster]

Well you obviously failed to see the point of my post.

[Static]

I expect, Lou Williams but with less passing , less efficient , a few more rebounds , less minutes , and more running in transition. 

Edited June 27, 2015 by Static

[benhillboy]

I like the Taller Maxwell and Kittles comparisons. I'm no fan of Klay Thompson, but he never hurts GS. TH2 will definitely hurt us in spots until he masters running off he ball in The System.

@North, Joe? Even I think that's blasphemous.

[skimaskway23]

Im just going to throw out kerry kittles

[sturt]

Player 48-Minute Production by Position

Position FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*

PG 23.0   .485   4.9   24%  3.5   4.2   .0   .0   4.9   26.5   16.5  

SG 20.9   .509   4.6   19%  4.3   3.7   2.4   .4   3.3   25.0   14.0  

SF 18.9   .365   3.9   22%  5.0   3.2   2.4   .3   3.3   16.8   4.6                

Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production

Position FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*

PG 12.5   .417   9.1   22%  3.5   7.7   4.2   .0   2.8   16.7   9.7  

SG 18.6   .533   5.0   22%  5.0   4.8   2.4   .3   3.6   23.9   16.0  

SF 13.7   .508   3.3   28%  7.6   4.1   1.8   .6   3.0   16.6   13.7                

 

Net 48-Minute Production by Position

Position FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*

PG 10.4  .068  -4.2  2% .0  -3.5  4.2  .0  -2.1  9.8  6.8  

SG 2.2  -.024  -.4  -3% -.7  -1.1  .0  .1  .2  1.1  -1.9  

SF 5.2  -.143  .6  -6% -2.7  -.9  -.7  -.2  -.3  .2  -9.1  

 

Interesting here is a huge PER differential when Hardaway played the PG position and terrible at the SF.  I think he's going to play a combo guard for us and this was an analytics decision.

 

DANG.

 

Thank you for digging this one out.

 

Didn't even know he logged any minutes at PG, and had been wondering if there was any reason to think he could be developed to do that. Certainly, we can have no doubt that he has the genetic material to do so

 

This really excites me for the possibility. I've seen his handles, and I've seen him make the slick pass testifying to his vision. What's left to question is whether he has the attitude and discipline to play a PG role.

[RandomFan]

DANG.

 

Thank you for digging this one out.

 

Didn't even know he logged any minutes at PG, and had been wondering if there was any reason to think he could be developed to do that. Certainly, we can have no doubt that he has the genetic material to do so

 

This really excites me for the possibility. I've seen his handles, and I've seen him make the slick pass testifying to his vision. What's left to question is whether he has the attitude and discipline to play a PG role.

 

I was asking in chat on draft night if he'd played on PG for them because the highlights I was watching looked like he could be an option there. I never got an answer so this is cool to see. If he could serve as a 3rd PG, that would help the team. I've had the suspicion for a few months now that we have wanted a combo guard backup that would allow us to move one of our 3 PG-only players (Teague, Schro, Mack).

 

I can see us moving Teague or Mack this offseason, in order to afford to at least keep Millsap and Carroll as free agents, and especially if it looks like we might have a shot at Gasol or LMA. In order to keep Carroll and Millsap, we'd at least need to trade away Mack's contract. And if we want to keep Carroll and add Gasol or LMA, we'd most likely have to trade away Teague's $8m per year contract. I'd highly doubt Schro is going anywhere since he's the future PG, is young, and is still on a rookie contract. The only reason to move either of the 3 would be for salary purposes.

[sturt]

I had a concern with moving Scott b/c he has been an energy guy off the bench, yet thought he and Mack both will be marketed to create space for DMC. It occurs to me that, while I don't like the idea of having to part with Scott, we do have someone now who is fully capable of that role, albeit at a different position.

 

Campster, in spite of everything optimistic I've said since Thu night, I still considered myself to still have one pant leg caught on the fence.

 

This gets me all the way over.

 

It all makes sense now.

[mrhonline]

Not exactly answering the question, but Gary Neal was the statistical comp I found through a player's first two seasons.  Interesting that the Hawks were reportedly interested in Neal at the waiver deadline.

 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=nealga01&p2=hardati02

Edited June 27, 2015 by mrhonline

[benhillboy]

I still group Danny Green, Gary Neal, and George Hill all into one single entity. I will never want any parts or whole of him/ it.

Edited June 28, 2015 by benhillboy

[AHF]

DANG.

 

Thank you for digging this one out.

 

Didn't even know he logged any minutes at PG, and had been wondering if there was any reason to think he could be developed to do that. Certainly, we can have no doubt that he has the genetic material to do so

 

This really excites me for the possibility. I've seen his handles, and I've seen him make the slick pass testifying to his vision. What's left to question is whether he has the attitude and discipline to play a PG role.

Remember that NY was desperate at pg last season, tapping the dleague. He won't play any pg here with Dennis and Mack behind Teague.

[sturt]

Remember that NY was desperate at pg last season, tapping the dleague. He won't play any pg here with Dennis and Mack behind Teague.

 

We'll see, won't we...

 

For my part, I think the (reported) fascination last year with Kyle Anderson was telling and real... the point being that Bud has really lusted for a tall PG option. The fact they worked out Grant suggests they toyed with going that direction as well.

 

Given those outcomes of THjr playing there, it's hard to ignore the opportunity that it presents--playing THjr along side Korver or Sefolosha or Bazemore, allowing him to play D where he appears to at least be decent.

[RandomFan]

Remember that NY was desperate at pg last season, tapping the dleague. He won't play any pg here with Dennis and Mack behind Teague.

 

You're assuming that all 3 of them remain here, which is far from a foregone conclusion, I think.