This is what makes us Mad...

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Dennis is not a leader.  Dennis is a selfish Heroballer.  That's why you like him.   When was the last time that Dennis sacrificed to make the team better?  That's what our offense is predicated on.  Making that extra pass to the more open man.  Dennis dribbles the life out of the offense and then seeks either his own shot or his own highlight pass.   Sheez.. bring back Iso Joe if that's what you want.

What Bud built was based on side to side ball movement with every guy getting a look.

You remember what happened the last time Dennis didn't play?  We have like 6 players in double figures and we won.

 

I like Dennis because he's always into the game good and bad, always aggressive good and bad.  He has an aggressive style of play I like (for the most part).  That aggressiveness can be harnessed.  Players like Teague where you have to drag the 'dog' out get to a point where that becomes tiresome.  you keep waiting for them to take the next step and take control of the team but never do.

6 years ago,  Nicky V was trying to help Teague get that 'dog' :

" The main reason Van Exel was brought in was to help with the development of second-year guard Jeff Teague and this year's first-round pick Jordan Crawford. New coach Larry Drew, team captain Joe Johnson, and others have been trying to encourage Teague to bulk up and be a more aggressive player. Bringing in Van Exel, who has a similar physical build and was known for being an extremely aggressive player, will hopefully help Teague take the leap in running the Hawks' new offense.

http://www.examiner.com/article/van-exel-to-help-teague-find-inner-dog

We are still waiting for that Teague,  still begging him to be aggressive.  Over and over and over and over.

It's easier to reign in aggression than try and pull it out of someone who just isn't that.

And please don't get me wrong - Teague is better than Dennis at the moment, Dennis still has a LOT to learn just like Teague did in his 3rd year.

You keep talking about Buds offense this and Bud's offense that - I think if he had issues with Dennis (and I'm sure he does at times)  he would be sitting next to him most nights by description.  

Let me also add, I like Dennis because he actually plays defense.  Full court press, fighting over and thru screens, ball denial, even when he gets switched on bigger players he battles. His off ball and team defense still needs work.

[Gray Mule]

Hawks don't have a leader?

Sure they do.  Al Horford is our leader.  Whatever he does, the others follow his example.

See the results!

Another thing.  Last season Hawks had DMC.  This season Toronto has DMC.  Check the standings.

Pretty good argument for DMC, isn't it!

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

Hawks don't have a leader?

Sure they do.  Al Horford is our leader.  Whatever he does, the others follow his example.

See the results!

Another thing.  Last season Hawks had DMC.  This season Toronto has DMC.  Check the standings.

Pretty good argument for DMC, isn't it!

Sorry to disagree with you gramp,s but DMc hasn't been playing,  I would say a trimmed down Lowry has a lot to do with that.

Last season he couldn't stay on the floor cause he was fat and got fatigued and nagging injuries.

And by all accounts Scola is the vocal leader on that team.

[Lurker]

FWIW: That's Raptors all the way except for the PF position and maaaaaaayyyyyyyybee SF, don't like saying it, but it is.

Lowry MAY not be more talented than Teague, but he's been a LOT better than him this season. It has not been close! Last season it's more of a debate.

Schröder>>Joseph, but it's not enough to make it a draw.

SG doesn't need to be explained.

SF is a draw, Johnson is better defensively than Bazemore. I don't know who Coboco is.

PF doesn't need to be explained.

C historically would be Horford, but this season I'm pretty sure Valancinous is having the better season.

I have a feeling that Lowry>>Teague though in talent. He is loads better in heart for sure.

[Diesel]

13 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I like Dennis because he's always into the game good and bad, always aggressive good and bad.  He has an aggressive style of play I like (for the most part).  That aggressiveness can be harnessed.  Players like Teague where you have to drag the 'dog' out get to a point where that becomes tiresome.  you keep waiting for them to take the next step and take control of the team but never do.

6 years ago,  Nicky V was trying to help Teague get that 'dog' :

 

The problem with all this is that was under LD.  When Bud came in, he changed how he wanted Teague to play...

 

Quote

Teague's talents had been previously wasted under Larry Drew. Drew had been let go as head coach of the Hawks and wanted to sign him now that he was with the Milwaukee Bucks.

Teague eventually re-signed with the Hawks on a four-year, $32 million deal.

After Budenholzer was hired, he called Teague and said, “We’re going to do something totally different than what you’re used to.”

Teague became an allstar in Bud's system playing Bud's way.   It's not about being the "Dog" that Drew wanted for him, it was about playing the way that Bud wanted him to play.

 

[Diesel]

11 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Sorry to disagree with you gramp,s but DMc hasn't been playing,  I would say a trimmed down Lowry has a lot to do with that.

Last season he couldn't stay on the floor cause he was fat and got fatigued and nagging injuries.

And by all accounts Scola is the vocal leader on that team.

It's not about what's on the court.  Lowry has always been good.  You hear team reports of how Toronto guys are a team on an off the court.  They eat meals together, do things together, etc... You used to hear that stuff about our guys... last year.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Diesel said:

The problem with all this is that was under LD.  When Bud came in, he changed how he wanted Teague to play...

 

Teague became an allstar in Bud's system playing Bud's way.   It's not about being the "Dog" that Drew wanted for him, it was about playing the way that Bud wanted him to play.

 

And how many times has Bud said 'he wants Teague to be aggressive, keep being aggressive"  he's our engine?  Over and Over and Over.

[Diesel]

11 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

And how many times has Bud said 'he wants Teague to be aggressive, keep being aggressive"  he's our engine?  Over and Over and Over.

However, I think when Bud speaks of aggressive and what we get from Dennis are two different things.  The Ballhog on the Blacktop can be aggressive.  Carmelo can be aggressive.  However, that's a different kind of aggressive than what you see with say Steph Curry.

 

[cam1218]

18 minutes ago, Diesel said:

The problem with all this is that was under LD.  When Bud came in, he changed how he wanted Teague to play...

 

Teague became an allstar in Bud's system playing Bud's way.   It's not about being the "Dog" that Drew wanted for him, it was about playing the way that Bud wanted him to play.

 

Teague had his best year under coach Bud. He was also surrounded by a lot of other guys having career years. Teague was an all star last year because he was the "aggressive Teague" for the majority of the season. 

His ability to penetrate makes him a fit for our system.  He isn't the same player if he isn't being aggressive or acting like he's the best player on the court. You think there would be rumors of trading last years version of Jeff?

[BigDog90]

10 hours ago, Diesel said:

Talent for talent, we're better than Toronto.   Yet... They look like they are going somewhere and we look like we got tickets to the circus.  Al Horford is the problem that we don't address.  He's taking off this year.  When you have Millsap playing at an allstar level, you have to have that allstar C to step up or it would be better without him. 

Look at the mactchups though.

 

Teague/Schro  vs. Lowery/Joseph                                                   - Hawks

Korver/THJr vs. Derozen/Ross                                                       - Raptors

Bazemore/Thabo vs. Johnson/Coboco                                    -Hawks

Millsap/Scott vs. Scola/Patterson                                              -Hawks

Horford/Splitter vs. Valancinous/Biyombo                        -Hawks

 

Are  they really 6 games better than us?  It's not the talent.  It's the effort.  Horford as a Bawse... needs to put in more effort or he needs to go.

Horford for Ryan Anderson and Ajinca is looking nicer everyday.

 

Lowry is better than Teague. Carroll should come back soon. Carroll/Johnson > Bazemore/Thabo

Right now TOR is better. Their bench has more of a defensive presence. Meanwhile, the Hawks is more offensive when you got one dimensional players like Scott and Hardaway leading the way.

Horford is worth more than Anderson and Ajinca. 

[Gray Mule]

@JayBirdHawk DMC is there, not here and he's not playing, but he is there.  He ain't here.

 

[Diesel]

10 hours ago, cam1218 said:

Teague had his best year under coach Bud. He was also surrounded by a lot of other guys having career years. Teague was an all star last year because he was the "aggressive Teague" for the majority of the season. 

His ability to penetrate makes him a fit for our system.  He isn't the same player if he isn't being aggressive or acting like he's the best player on the court. You think there would be rumors of trading last years version of Jeff?

A rumor is just that.  A rumor.  It may be that we put that out to see if teams have players that we could use that they were willing to trade.  As far as aggressive Teague last year.. I think you missed the most important thing.  Last year, we had a team that was truly playing Bud Ball.   For Bud Ball to work, everybody has got to buy in.  This year, we don't have the buy in and we look more like a team filled with isolations.   That's the difference.  Teague doesn't look as good if the team is not moving.  Schro looks good in isolation ball because that's his thing.  He wants to dribble the paint off the ball, direct traffic so that he can get a layup or an open shot.  It's isojoe all over again.  Now we have come this far and we know that it doesn't work.  However, if there's nobody checking this team.. if there's nobody making sure that we're really playing Bud ball, what do you expect?

[Hawkmoor]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

A rumor is just that.  A rumor.  It may be that we put that out to see if teams have players that we could use that they were willing to trade.  As far as aggressive Teague last year.. I think you missed the most important thing.  Last year, we had a team that was truly playing Bud Ball.   For Bud Ball to work, everybody has got to buy in.  This year, we don't have the buy in and we look more like a team filled with isolations.   That's the difference.  Teague doesn't look as good if the team is not moving.  Schro looks good in isolation ball because that's his thing.  He wants to dribble the paint off the ball, direct traffic so that he can get a layup or an open shot.  It's isojoe all over again.  Now we have come this far and we know that it doesn't work.  However, if there's nobody checking this team.. if there's nobody making sure that we're really playing Bud ball, what do you expect?

They ARE playing Bud ball.  Ive even created a thread about it.  The Hawks GUARDS ARE the post game for the Hawks on offense. You think Bud is leaving Dennis in the game to iso and drive and has no control over that, when all he has to do is bench Dennis?  Teague and Dennis drives to the hoop are Bud's low post game on offense.  Now, to be honest, AT TIMES, he WILL run plays that let Horford finish toward the hoop,  ( I was harping that he wasnt), but Bud loves those guard drives to the hoop. Thats why he loves Bazemore and went and got him. Its like Bud has turned the traditional offense inside out:  The bigs play guard, the guards play center.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Hawkmoor

[JTB]

31 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

They ARE playing Bud ball.  Ive even created a thread about it.  The Hawks GUARDS ARE the post game for the Hawks on offense. You think Bud is leaving Dennis in the game to iso and drive and has no control over that, when all he has to do is bench Dennis?  Teague and Dennis drives to the hoop are Bud's low post game on offense.  Now, to be honest, AT TIMES, he WILL run plays that let Horford finish toward the hoop,  ( I was harping that he wasnt), but Bud loves those guard drives to the hoop. Thats why he loves Bazemore and went and got him. Its like Bud has turned the traditional offense inside out:  The bigs play guard, the guards play center.

Absolutely right! The only reason things aren't working is because a lack of penetration from our guards to the lane and because of wide open miss shots.

Teague and Dennis penetration to the lane allows either an easy score or it ignites the ball movement to start. They play a read and react type game...that's bud ball. But that's not to say the ball movement can't be ignited another way but that's the easiest way to get the whole team going and involved. Our points don't have to drop 20 a game they have to penetrate and dump off to sap or horford or kickout to korver or Bazemore who ever and guys start moving like they know what position to be in.

When millsap has the ball in the post the Hawks don't seem to know what to do or how to move around as well....same goes for when Kyle comes off screens, players just kind of watch Kyle coming off screens..credit DMC last year! When Kyle came off screens it seems like he was always cutting to the goal....we need Baze to start doing that.

[Hawkmoor]

19 minutes ago, JTB said:

Absolutely right! The only reason things aren't working is because a lack of penetration from our guards to the lane and because of wide open miss shots.

Teague and Dennis penetration to the lane allows either an easy score or it ignites the ball movement to start. They play a read and react type game...that's bud ball. But that's not to say the ball movement can't be ignited another way but that's the easiest way to get the whole team going and involved. Our points don't have to drop 20 a game they have to penetrate and dump off to sap or horford or kickout to korver or Bazemore who ever and guys start moving like they know what position to be in.

When millsap has the ball in the post the Hawks don't seem to know what to do or how to move around as well....same goes for when Kyle comes off screens, players just kind of watch Kyle coming off screens..credit DMC last year! When Kyle came off screens it seems like he was always cutting to the goal....we need Baze to start doing that.

Exactly.  On point.  Even the Hawk hammer sets, one of my favorite sets they use,  starts off with high pick and rolls, but finishes with the shooting guard PENETRATING and KICKING OUT to a big.   

Another KEY to this that people are not looking at is this:  Mack is a EXCELLENT backup point guard.  WHY isnt he getting more playing time if Dennis is not running the show the way Bud wants him to?  Thats your key right there. Dennis IS running the show the way Bud wants him to.

Thats WHY Teague is the one on the trading block and not Al Horford. Bud KNOWS that Dennis can run his offense, and that if things go south, Mack CAN step in and run the show, albeit, a more traditional point guard, but Mack CAN run the show. If the KNICKS had SOMETHING to offer the Hawks, Teague wouldve BEEN traded to them already.

Lastly, Sap has played sooo much on the perimeter that he has just about lost his post game. It shows up when they try to close with him.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Hawkmoor

[Guest]

17 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Sorry to disagree with you gramp,s but DMc hasn't been playing,  I would say a trimmed down Lowry has a lot to do with that.

Last season he couldn't stay on the floor cause he was fat and got fatigued and nagging injuries.

And by all accounts Scola is the vocal leader on that team.

There's your dislike for fatties again lol....jk. I think Teague should be a better player than Fatty, I mean Lowry, but the only reason he's not is because Fatty has heart....oh, and he's a cow in a china shop.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Diesel said:

A rumor is just that.  A rumor.  It may be that we put that out to see if teams have players that we could use that they were willing to trade.  As far as aggressive Teague last year.. I think you missed the most important thing.  Last year, we had a team that was truly playing Bud Ball.   For Bud Ball to work, everybody has got to buy in.  This year, we don't have the buy in and we look more like a team filled with isolations.   That's the difference.  Teague doesn't look as good if the team is not moving.  Schro looks good in isolation ball because that's his thing.  He wants to dribble the paint off the ball, direct traffic so that he can get a layup or an open shot.  It's isojoe all over again.  Now we have come this far and we know that it doesn't work.  However, if there's nobody checking this team.. if there's nobody making sure that we're really playing Bud ball, what do you expect?

It seems all you remember from last season,  was the month preceeding the ASG and that awesome January.  

We didn't look the same after the ASG and into the playoffs, granted the resting of players and injuries had something to do with that.

Teague is supposed to get them moving not the other way around, he is the engine.  All our action is predicated on the PGs ability to get in the paint, cause defenders to shift which in  turn makes our players move.  Drive and Kick.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, JTB said:

Absolutely right! The only reason things aren't working is because a lack of penetration from our guards to the lane and because of wide open miss shots.

Teague and Dennis penetration to the lane allows either an easy score or it ignites the ball movement to start. They play a read and react type game...that's bud ball. But that's not to say the ball movement can't be ignited another way but that's the easiest way to get the whole team going and involved. Our points don't have to drop 20 a game they have to penetrate and dump off to sap or horford or kickout to korver or Bazemore who ever and guys start moving like they know what position to be in.

When millsap has the ball in the post the Hawks don't seem to know what to do or how to move around as well....same goes for when Kyle comes off screens, players just kind of watch Kyle coming off screens..credit DMC last year! When Kyle came off screens it seems like he was always cutting to the goal....we need Baze to start doing that.

There was an article earlier about DMC's ability to play off Millsap and Horford with timely cuts to the basket.  Baze has done that a few times but he needs to do it more.