Do you all trust these guys?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

12 minutes ago, HawkItus said:

No what I'm saying is to say you don't trust Bud/Wilcox,  but do trust Ferry because he would "blah blah blah" is not reality.   Reality is Ferry built a 60 win team that most folks are now calling a fluke.  He is one of the few GM's who had Lebron and Shaq but did not win a title.   What in his history promotes this blind faith that he was the savior we let go?   All we have is history as a GM.  

http://www.basketball-reference.com/executives/ferryda01x.html

 

Where is this great GM pedigree you all cry about losing?  For Pete's sake I'm tired of it. 

Great point.  

And when we had the chance to get either Rodney Hood or the point forward Kyle Anderson, the front office opted for Adreian Payne ( despite having the "great" Pero Antić on the squad.

 

[High5]

Pretending that Ferry built a 60-win, ECF team on accident sounds way more logical than believing he could actually be a good GM. Riiiiiight. 

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, HawkItus said:

Ferry never won an NBA title as a player or a GM.   Give it a rest.

Well *actually* ...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2003.html

I don't see what the *bleep* that has to do with anything though. Or why the hell this team needs to "completely blow up" the roster ala what Billy Knight did to set the franchise back oh I don't know a whole freaking decade to reach the pinnacle of the 2nd round.

I think I'm just rambling at this point or so. I do find most complaints of the current regime or previous regimes to be, well unfounded. There's a big randomness component to basketball that people appear to be ignoring and also there's that whole dang Salary Cap and CBA to deal with...of which I don't see many on here with an understanding of it to have a basis for complaints. I'm not rambling at anyone in particular, just a general rambling. OK I need to go grab a snickers or something.

[HawkItus]

8 minutes ago, AHF said:

He built the most successful team in Atlanta history and did a good job managing the cap (i.e., he didn't sell out future flexibility to do it).  That earns him some credibility for me.  I  was skeptical of his hiring at first because I wasn't a fan of his time in Cleveland but I was a big fan of him getting a large contract and serious power because I thought we needed stability and autonomy for our GM.  

Firing Ferry for something that didn't warrant firing meant introducing instability (the vision changes when the man in charge changes) and there are at a minimum serious questions about Wilcox's autonomy as GM.  So I don't like that uncertainty coming in either.  I had hoped that we were looking at a new day for the Hawks where the ownership would hire a GM and get out of his way and let him sink or swim.  He swam and then Gearon jumped in the water and wrestled him until they drowned and now neither has a voice in the Hawks.

So I don't think Ferry was perfect but I am disappointed that he didn't get to play out his long-term vision for the team.  That and I think our offseason was rough.  Sap resigning was great.  I liked the Tiago trade but that looks like a bust at this point (it was looking busty before the injury).  I hated the THJr trade and think we failed to balance our roster.  So I have reservations.

But you are essentially arguing that Bud be meddled with by ownership and not allowed to finish his vision?  Bud/Wilcox are just getting to the point management wise that Ferry was when he first started.  Evaluating what they have and how to proceed.   This summer is the one they should be judged on.  But, you know that would make the Ferry idolization and THJ hate unpalatable. 

[HawkItus]

3 minutes ago, hawksfanatic said:

Well *actually* ...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2003.html

I don't see what the *bleep* that has to do with anything though. Or why the hell this team needs to "completely blow up" the roster ala what Billy Knight did to set the franchise back oh I don't know a whole freaking decade to reach the pinnacle of the 2nd round.

I think I'm just rambling at this point or so. I do find most complaints of the current regime or previous regimes to be, well unfounded. There's a big randomness component to basketball that people appear to be ignoring and also there's that whole dang Salary Cap and CBA to deal with...of which I don't see many on here with an understanding of it to have a basis for complaints. I'm not rambling at anyone in particular, just a general rambling. OK I need to go grab a snickers or something.

Dammit @hawksfanatic   

I was wrong on the player end.    I actually agree with your post.  And I'm am fine with just being a fan and GM'ing on 2k.    But, the media and the fans seem to have unfairly turned on Bud/Wilcox for this ideal of what Ferry the GM was/is/could have been. 

[HawkItus]

12 minutes ago, High5 said:

Pretending that Ferry built a 60-win, ECF team on accident sounds way more logical than believing he could actually be a good GM. Riiiiiight. 

Never said he was a bad GM.  But, just because Bud/Cox has not duplicated this year doesn't make them bad Executives, right?

[AHF]

13 minutes ago, HawkItus said:

But you are essentially arguing that Bud be meddled with by ownership and not allowed to finish his vision?  Bud/Wilcox are just getting to the point management wise that Ferry was when he first started.  Evaluating what they have and how to proceed.   This summer is the one they should be judged on.  But, you know that would make the Ferry idolization and THJ hate unpalatable. 

I am arguing that Ferry is judged a success in book based on what he did during his time in Atlanta and that instability and starting all over again is the hallmark of a team that doesn't win.  SA doesn't shuffle the deck and restart over and over.

I agree it is too early to judge Bud/Wilcox and that they are just getting going as the new management team.  I am critical of the fact that we have to be starting over again (not critical of Bud/Wilcox but critical of the Ferry firing).

I don't think I am really idolizing Ferry or bashing Bud.  I am bashing the THJr trade with his 36.5% shooting and 9.0 PER.  I'll cop to that.

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, AHF said:

I am arguing that Ferry is judged a success in book based on what he did during his time in Atlanta and that instability and starting all over again is the hallmark of a team that doesn't win.  SA doesn't shuffle the deck and restart over and over.

I agree it is too early to judge Bud/Wilcox and that they are just getting going as the new management team.  I am critical of the fact that we have to be starting over again (not critical of Bud/Wilcox but critical of the Ferry firing).

I don't think I am really idolizing Ferry or bashing Bud.  I am bashing the THJr trade with his 36.5% shooting and 9.0 PER.  I'll cop to that.

I can't agree with this anymore.  It wasn't that Ferry was a great saviour is that the Hawks franchise was seen as having a stable front office moving in the right direction.  Ferry gave the Hawks credibility that they had basketball people doing basketball things instead of the ASG clownership.

Now it's a start over -again.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I can't agree with this anymore.  It wasn't that Ferry was a great saviour is that the Hawks franchise was seen as having a stable front office moving in the right direction.  Ferry gave the Hawks credibility that they had basketball people doing basketball things instead of the ASG clownership.

Now it's a start over -again.

Wes Wilcox isn't a real GM I'm sorry. He's like an assistant at best. We need a real GM. 

[HawkItus]

But. that is all the ASG's and Ferry's fault.  New ownership could not keep him.   Bud did not fire Ferry.  I just do not see how any judgement can be made on the new parties.  

[AHF]

31 minutes ago, HawkItus said:

But. that is all the ASG's and Ferry's fault.  New ownership could not keep him.   Bud did not fire Ferry.  I just do not see how any judgement can be made on the new parties.  

Of course, either the ASG could have returned Ferry much earlier or new ownership could have kept him.  They chose not to and to start over on the front office side of things.  You can't judge the new management team for anything more than the last offseason and that is too short a time period to make a meaningful judgment on their overall competency.  

@JayBirdHawk nailed it:

Quote

 It wasn't that Ferry was a great saviour is that the Hawks franchise was seen as having a stable front office moving in the right direction.  Ferry gave the Hawks credibility that they had basketball people doing basketball things instead of the ASG clownership.

Now we don't know what we have.  We just have to wait and see.

[hawkman]

Ferry gets way too much credit around here. There's no way he knew last season's team would be what they were.

[Guest]

I think most of you keep missing the point.

This is Bud's 3rd year as a head coach, now he has the responsibility of President of Basketball operations. 

Wes  Wilcox was hired as an assistant GM in 2012 before that he was most recently Director of Player Personnel with Cavs.  So after so after 2 years as Assistant GM he is now the GM.

Some are concerned is that they are very new to their positions along with new ownership. They are still learning to navigate the through the NBA. 

That's why having an established GM (like DF was) is important - not saying Ferry did great and wonderful things but having a seasoned vet helps.

[BigDog90]

On 2/11/2016 at 7:09 PM, Wurider05 said:

Seriously do you guys trust these guys to make this team better? We probably make 0 moves and Al walks. Then we have a disgruntled Jeff Teague if he isnt already. Or we make a move and get fleeced or bring in more mediocre players that "fit the system". I honestly dont trust these guys. They are going to mess it up one way or another. I say tear it all down and keep dennis,edy,and hardaway jr.

 

No. They got no vocal leaders. I understand letting Carroll go but they should have kept Brand. I've seen him several times give the players pep talks during games last season.

[Wretch]

17 hours ago, AHF said:

He built the most successful team in Atlanta history and did a good job managing the cap (i.e., he didn't sell out future flexibility to do it).  That earns him some credibility for me.  I  was skeptical of his hiring at first because I wasn't a fan of his time in Cleveland but I was a big fan of him getting a large contract and serious power because I thought we needed stability and autonomy for our GM.  

Firing Ferry for something that didn't warrant firing meant introducing instability (the vision changes when the man in charge changes) and there are at a minimum serious questions about Wilcox's autonomy as GM.  So I don't like that uncertainty coming in either.  I had hoped that we were looking at a new day for the Hawks where the ownership would hire a GM and get out of his way and let him sink or swim.  He swam and then Gearon jumped in the water and wrestled him until they drowned and now neither has a voice in the Hawks.

So I don't think Ferry was perfect but I am disappointed that he didn't get to play out his long-term vision for the team.  That and I think our offseason was rough.  Sap resigning was great.  I liked the Tiago trade but that looks like a bust at this point (it was looking busty before the injury).  I hated the THJr trade and think we failed to balance our roster.  So I have reservations.

Very well said.   I really couldn't agree more with the first two paragraphs.  It's exactly how I feel.  I was very skeptical of Ferry's approach, but it worked.  Nobody predicted or could have predicted how good that team was, but at a minimum, we could see the potential.  I would have liked to see him finish what he started and I don't like the instability/uncertainty we're facing now.

I'm not so down on this team.  What worries me is that we're not really that bad.  We're right there with the rest of the East clawing for position at the 2/3 seeds.  In light of that, my concern is that management doesn't a sense of urgency.  I'm also little concerned with their valuation of Horford.

On a side note, it's funny to me how people are quietly disowning Danny Ferry - when a season ago, he was the greatest thing that ever happened to the Hawks (to include Dominique Wilkins, said someone at one point).  I was wrong about his vision and I wish we had not fired him, but I never lost sight of the potential for this team to begin middling again. 

I do think he'd have a firm grasp on what needs to be done to get us to the front of the pack.  Not up to the level of SA or GSW, but certainly he could keep us to within striking distance of Cleveland.  I think the current regime knows what to do to....and I'm about 90% certain that we see a major move before the deadline.  Not a "reboot" move, but something to push us over this hump.  

A reboot is going to depend on whether or not Al wants to stay here and what we can get back for him.

[Alex]

I don't expect anything to be done, but mainly because what is there that can be done?  There isn't any cap space to take on.  Best case would be to get rid of Horford to a team who thinks he could be a difference maker and give them a chance to win.  I don't know if there are any teams that want a soft non rebounding "big" who plays on the perimeter.

[BrazilianHawk]

17 hours ago, hawkman said:

Ferry gets way too much credit around here. There's no way he knew last season's team would be what they were.

Of course not, he's kein Nostradamus! But he might very well have thought the team would be much better than what we had before.

Let's just focus on the facts. He did build the best Atlanta Hawks team ever. Personal opinions are just that. Personal opinions, not facts.

[BrazilianHawk]

3 hours ago, Wretch said:

I do think he'd have a firm grasp on what needs to be done to get us to the front of the pack.  Not up to the level of SA or GSW, but certainly he could keep us to within striking distance of Cleveland.  I think the current regime knows what to do to....and I'm about 90% certain that we see a major move before the deadline.  Not a "reboot" move, but something to push us over this hump.  

I doubt it. But I wish I'm wrong. To me it looks like they don't know what do to . BudCox has done nothing  (aside from re-signing Millsap which was a no-brainer) for me to believe we're heading in the right direction. I would think Bud is spending too much time on his GM career and neglecting his primary job i.e. coaching the team.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, BrazilianHawk said:

I doubt it. But I wish I'm wrong. To me it looks like they don't know what do to . BudCox has done nothing  (aside from re-signing Millsap which was a no-brainer) for me to believe we're heading in the right direction. I would think Bud is spending too much time on his GM career and neglecting his primary job i.e. coaching the team.

Damn....they've been on their current jobs for 8 months.  

They may come from Pop's and Ferry's tree, but they will have to set their own part.  They have to reset what their vision is for the Hawks.

[AHF]

22 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

They have to reset what their vision is for the Hawks.

That's why I don't like the change even if I don't think Ferry walks on water.  Teams that are constantly resetting their vision (think Cleveland Browns) fail.  I hope we can have stability in our management team and time for them to play out their vision.  I thought we were getting that with Ferry and now we are 'resetting' again.